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East Coast Timetable Dec 24

Clarence Yard

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The taxpayer invested 1.2B in various enhancements along the route as developed by NR to realise the faster journey times and run more trains on electric traction. The timetable should have been ready to go in May 22 on a project that was initiated back in 2015 yet that timetable change was deferred as it wasn't properly developed. So to then roll on another two and half years and its still not deliverable is a pretty poor show by the industry. If i was a politician of any hue why would you ever agree to anymore enhancements when this is the outcome. This isn't on DafT and its incumbent on the rail industries players involved here to demonstrate they can deliver.

Unfortunately, it is the DfT’s fault. Key infrastructure enhancements were descoped or delayed and the DfT have been mucking around with the service specifications.

The industry has been given a near impossible task, not helped by the Region thinking they could work it out themselves (with heavy DfT influence) rather than run it as a truly joint timetabling project. Too many times the TOCs and FOCs have been offered “solutions” that were not up to the mark.

And don’t get me started on a very late NR performance analysis of the proposed T/T that had trains missing and was only done for part of the day, completely ignoring the morning peak. You just can’t re-run the 2018 debacle on one of the most important lines on the network because you are more interested in meeting DfT deadlines rather than achieving a workable timetable.
 
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Nicholas Lewis

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Unfortunately, it is the DfT’s fault. Key infrastructure enhancements were descoped or delayed and the DfT have been mucking around with the service specifications.

The industry has been given a near impossible task, not helped by the Region thinking they could work it out themselves (with heavy DfT influence) rather than run it as a truly joint timetabling project. Too many times the TOCs and FOCs have been offered “solutions” that were not up to the mark.
Umm you could expect that as soon as you give the region powers history repeating itself again and again about time Haines put his foot down and explained the facts of the life that it is still a national system.
And don’t get me started on a very late NR performance analysis of the proposed T/T that had trains missing and was only done for part of the day, completely ignoring the morning peak. You just can’t re-run the 2018 debacle on one of the most important lines on the network because you are more interested in meeting DfT deadlines rather than achieving a workable timetable.
If you are referring to 2018 GTR timetable that was sound it was the lack of train crew with the requisite route knowledge which sunk it initially but once that got resolved the timetable settled down nicely and has served me well on a daily basis. I even came to like the fact it has plenty of recovery in it which the current ECML timetable has so maybe not such a good idea to anchor the timetable against achieving 4hr to Edinburgh. Anyhow we can't get away from the fact that big money has been spent which was supposed to deliver enhancements and it hasn't but suspect Dec 24 wont happen now and it will be kicked into the long grass forever.
 

Clarence Yard

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There was more to the GTR problems than just purely train crew. The September 2018 ORR enquiry report shows how the late decisions on the timetable affected matters and what the consequences were.

Major recasts should be done years in advance so a year out you are just be doing the final minor adjustments. That was the whole point of the ESG (Event Steering Group) process, so when the ESG timetable is handed over by the Region to MK (ideally more than a year out) it should be a robust product.
 

WAB

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Has the situation at MK improved? I get the impression that there are still gaps and plenty of inexperience to go around.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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There was more to the GTR problems than just purely train crew. The September 2018 ORR enquiry report shows how the late decisions on the timetable affected matters and what the consequences were.

Major recasts should be done years in advance so a year out you are just be doing the final minor adjustments. That was the whole point of the ESG (Event Steering Group) process, so when the ESG timetable is handed over by the Region to MK (ideally more than a year out) it should be a robust product.
Granted late decisions on the timetable led to revised driver training requirements but as i say as a daily user that timetable remains largely unaltered and given the wholesale scale of the changes to service groups it was great piece of work by the GTR & NR timetable teams. Of course there is Northern/TPE in the mix as well which i get why i know May 2018 gets imprinted on peoples minds but the industry feels like it lack confidence in itself all too often these days and has become too risk adverse. Clearly i don't have the detail here and don't doubt from your insights this will get rolled over if not kicked into the long grass until TPU is complete.
 

The Planner

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Unfortunately, it is the DfT’s fault. Key infrastructure enhancements were descoped or delayed and the DfT have been mucking around with the service specifications.

The industry has been given a near impossible task, not helped by the Region thinking they could work it out themselves (with heavy DfT influence) rather than run it as a truly joint timetabling project. Too many times the TOCs and FOCs have been offered “solutions” that were not up to the mark.

And don’t get me started on a very late NR performance analysis of the proposed T/T that had trains missing and was only done for part of the day, completely ignoring the morning peak. You just can’t re-run the 2018 debacle on one of the most important lines on the network because you are more interested in meeting DfT deadlines rather than achieving a workable timetable.
I wonder what conspiracy theories can be started about the MD jumping regions :lol:
Has the situation at MK improved? I get the impression that there are still gaps and plenty of inexperience to go around.
Retention is/has always been the issue. Its a role where you need people to stay, and you can't force people to do that.
 
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The mud-slinging is very much the norm in our current rail set up but many people here probably recongise that, at heart, it doesn't get us very far. When something goes wrong, on the scale of the 2018 meltdown, the public and the politicians see the rail industry as a whole failing, and are simply uninterested in the intra-mural point scoring. They want the industry parties themselves to sort things out, properly. Ideally, ahead of time.... !

The reality here is that on the East Coast there has, for many years, been serial inability by the whole industry to face up to tradeoffs between the various plans and the reality of what can be done. The view that NR serves its own interest, a proposition that since it is highly regulated one can debate, doesn't help make progress. The strategy of getting a mention in the Budget Speech is a new one but the specifics seem unclear and, in any case, cannot overule the current formal timetable processes.

Examples that immediately come to mind:
  • signing up to the IEP fleet and contract, on the expectation that there should be 3tph to NCL and possibly even 4 hour journey times to Edinburgh to produce the revenue to help pay for the fleet expansion beyond the HSTs and 225s,
  • Werrington, memorably described by one wag as the 'underpass to nowhere', which created a bypass route for Freight via Lincoln with little support from the FOCs or, indeed, from the City Fathers of that city itself (level crossings, anyone?). It remains ... er ... somewhat underused.
  • TfN's aspiration for better links between Manchester and NCL, via Leeds, which challenged the unwritten view that 'London trains have priority North of York'. (Leeds-Newcastle today hardly feels a route, given TPE problems, reliance on connections at York and lack of obvious regular clockface timings other than in the middle of the day)
  • upgrades of power and infrastructure between York and Edinburgh, designed with a service pattern in mind but without the ability for it to happen and then descoped. Still, the power supply upgrade is good future-proofing given net zero,
  • King's Cross upgrade, extra Peterborough platforms and Digital Railway, similarly. These brought more capacity, but was this there to expand open access, LNER, TSGN, freight or simply to provide a performance buffer (no bad thing, of course)? And how did they fit with the plan for the rest of the route?
  • the inital stages of TRU upgrade from Leeds to York, when there is likely to be insufficient turnround capacity at York or ability to merge TPE trains in with LNER and XC North of York?
  • COVID demand on commuter routes, not just London but also into Leeds and Newcastle. If commuter demand is permanently lower, perhaps some of the capacity South of Peterborough could/should be used for other purposes?
  • capacity for TPE, NT and XC between Doncaster and Sheffield, eg moving all XC to go via Doncaster. This section heavily constrains XC and South Transpennine today
  • adding stations in Scotland, without fully considering how all-day services to them are to be provided alongside everything else (one might add the Blythe reopening, although its effect on the main line is much smaller).
  • at various times, implicitly anticipating a downgrade in the number of direct Londons for Northallerton, Darlington, Durham, Alnmouth and Berwick, in favour of connections at York/Berwick, without mentioning this explicitly to their passengers/political representatives,
  • wanting to grow freight whilst continuing to erode the possible end-to-end Class 4 paths that can feasibly be created to help realise this.
and so on.

One could argue about whether NR, NR's route, DfT or the individual operators should have done more/less. But something has to change. And that has to happen before the Williams-Shapps report is implemented, however that happens. (Technically, there was not a clear enough agreement on the core proposition (trains per hour, timings) when the ESG process began (but wasn't that back in 2012 or so, when the IEPs were committed ...?)

Perhaps what's needed now is some Kissinger-style shuttle-diplomacy between everyone involved, operators, infrastructure manager, funders and TfN, to see if a route through this can be found in short order for December. That will almost certainly mean one or more of the aspirations for the route being parked for now. If not Dec 24, then at least Dec 25. If the main components of a timetable structure (including links across the Pennines and to South Yorks) can be resolved by eg. this November, then there's a chance that MK can turn it into the Dec 25 timetable. But the main components need to be resolved first: neither the ESG (haven't they been place for over a decade?) or MK can do that on their own.

The lesson is surely, as per other posts upthread, that one should start with the services to be provided, including open access, and then figure out the infrastructure needed to make them happen. This is not only logical :smile: but also helps save abortive investment cost (see eg Bletchley flyover, until its most recent resurrection, Carlisle yards) :lol:.
 

Clarence Yard

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The Kissinger style diplomacy will get you nowhere because the individual organisations will wibble away for months. That has been one of the problems so far - too much chat.

Getting the timetablers together to work out what is actually possible for December 24 is the best way forward and that happens next week. Obviously, those that have firm rights will be first on the graph.
 

Bikeman78

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Why can't we do what the Swiss and the Dutch have done for years — decide what timetable you want, and then make sure that in time for its introduction you have the necessary infrastructure to be able to deliver it reliably? (In a much more long-winded and argumentative way this is also the process behind the development of the proposed Taktfahrplan for Germany.) The whole ECML business seems to be another example of Britain trying to squeeze a quart out of a pint pot. Where's the boundray between the efficient use of assets and expecting the absurd?
I have made a similar point in the past. I have watched them install lots of extra infrastructure over the past 30 years and increase the service to four trains per hour on many routes. Did no one sit down and work out what timetable they wanted for the ECML and where the pinch points are? Why the random stopping points in the proposed timetable? Why not every 30 minutes to Leeds and Edinburgh stopping at the same places?
 

Class 170101

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I have made a similar point in the past. I have watched them install lots of extra infrastructure over the past 30 years and increase the service to four trains per hour on many routes. Did no one sit down and work out what timetable they wanted for the ECML and where the pinch points are? Why the random stopping points in the proposed timetable? Why not every 30 minutes to Leeds and Edinburgh stopping at the same places?
Kings Cross to each of Edinburgh and Leeds warrants a 2tph service (each), but are you seriously suggesting that Edinburgh trains should call at Peterborough, Grantham, Newark, Retford, Doncaster, York, Northallerton, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle, Morpeth, Almouth, Berwick and Dunbar on a twice hourly basis?

Milton Keynes (Network Rail HQ and where the timetable planners work).
Well the Network Rail planners at least

Does switching to trying to build on the June 24 timetable structure affect the opening of Cambridge South Station? I thought the new December 2024 East Coast Mainline timetable was needed for Cambridge South Station.
A timetable itself wouldn't affect the opening of the station, its a construction project after all, the timetable accomodates for when it opens but may have time allocated to it before the station opens, perhaps mid timetable, but as to how many trains could be fitted serve it in the current and June 24 timetable is a different matter but it is unlikely to be as many as a purpose built timetable would do.
 
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Bikeman78

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Kings Cross to each of Edinburgh and Leeds warrants a 2tph service (each), but are you seriously suggesting that Edinburgh trains should call at Peterborough, Grantham, Newark, Retford, Doncaster, York, Northallerton, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle, Morpeth, Almouth, Berwick and Dunbar on a twice hourly basis?
Fair point. Maybe Peterborough, Doncaster, York, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle, Berwick and Edinburgh with an hourly stop at one more station. Run an hourly EMU from Newcastle or Berwick for the intermediate stations.
 

JonathanH

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Fair point. Maybe Peterborough, Doncaster, York, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle, Berwick and Edinburgh with an hourly stop at one more station. Run an hourly EMU from Newcastle or Berwick for the intermediate stations.
Isn't the whole point of the exercise to find a way that LNER's prime hourly service can stop solely at York and Newcastle on its way from London to Edinburgh, with everything else constrained by that requirement?
 

Austriantrain

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Fair point. Maybe Peterborough, Doncaster, York, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle, Berwick and Edinburgh with an hourly stop at one more station. Run an hourly EMU from Newcastle or Berwick for the intermediate stations.

Half-hourly regular trains with stops at Peterborough/Doncaster (alternating), York, Darlington/Durham, Newcastle, [one stop between NCL and EDI, varying], Edinburgh. Intermediate traffic should use other trains.
 

HamworthyGoods

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Fair point. Maybe Peterborough, Doncaster, York, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle, Berwick and Edinburgh with an hourly stop at one more station. Run an hourly EMU from Newcastle or Berwick for the intermediate stations.

That’s still slower than the existing Anglo Scot and the purpose of this timetable recast is to speed it up not slow it down.

We don’t need all the trains calling at Doncaster, Durham or Berwick for example!

Half-hourly regular trains with stops at Peterborough/Doncaster (alternating), York, Darlington/Durham, Newcastle, [one stop between NCL and EDI, varying], Edinburgh. Intermediate traffic should use other trains.

Your missing out flows such as Newark to Scotland then. Newark has a huge catchment area for the East Midlands including Nottingham which is why one Anglo Scot an hour calls at Newark and continues to do so.
 
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The Kissinger style diplomacy will get you nowhere because the individual organisations will wibble away for months. That has been one of the problems so far - too much chat
You are certainly right about the chat and months (years?) it has gone on. The point is perhaps that Dr Kissinger simply wouldn't stand for "wibbling" of any kind and would discuss directly with the principles involved to seek a resolution directly with them...
 

Bald Rick

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Worse still, the London to Edinburgh express (York and Newcastle) took an extra 10 minutes, mainly between Newcastle and Edinburgh I think

Not sure where you get that from; the draft timetables had it 20 minutes quicker.
 
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Article on ECML December 2024 timetable on page 8 of Modern Railways April 2024 refers to a letter dated 1 March from Chris Curtis, Network Rail's Director, Industry PMO and Network Performance, to Conrad Bailey, Directory General, Rail Strategy and Services at the Department for Transport.
 

HST43257

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Not sure where you get that from; the draft timetables had it 20 minutes quicker.
To clarify: 10 minutes slower than it could be.

I seem to remember most express services taking 4 hours and 10 minutes, but I’m firmly of the view that with a couple of other bits moved slightly, it could well be 4 hours on the dot. Something like:

London 1000
York 1146-1149
Newcastle 1238-1241
Edinburgh 1400
 

Bald Rick

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To clarify: 10 minutes slower than it could be.

I seem to remember most express services taking 4 hours and 10 minutes, but I’m firmly of the view that with a couple of other bits moved slightly, it could well be 4 hours on the dot. Something like:

London 1000
York 1146-1149
Newcastle 1238-1241
Edinburgh 1400

Oh I’m sure that could be done.

Just as long as you didn’t want much in the way of Cross Country or TPE or freight services.
 

HST43257

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Oh I’m sure that could be done.

Just as long as you didn’t want much in the way of Cross Country or TPE or freight services.
That’s the whole point of restructuring the timetable though, they’re supposed to build it, in this case, around this service - no?
 

Class 800

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What is the benefit of prioritizing London-(York)-Newcastle-Edinburgh?

People who want any intermediate station end up forced to sit on a stopper which would take them much longer, or change trains more often.

Take London to Darlington. 2h20 right now with just a York stop in the middle - the only station that will lose the fast.
With the new timetable folks travelling there would have to choose between additional stops at Peterborough and Doncaster, or alternatively Stevenage, potentially Peterborough, Grantham, Newark and Doncaster.
I don't know about you, but I like fast trains. At this rate we'll hit 125 for a maximum of 5-10 minutes before slowing down for the next stop. Let alone 140.

The fact is, that with the new timetable unless you are going to Edinburgh, Newcastle or (possibly) York, you can kiss fast journey times goodbye.
Then what's the benefit of shelling out and taking the train when I could just drive and get the same journey time door to door?

Once ETCS is up, somehow I feel the timetable will be adjusted to allow the London-York-Newcastle-Edinburgh to do 140 for as long as humanly possible, no matter how much everyone else gets slowed down.
 

gabrielhj07

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Nevermind the marvellous aspiration to have the hourly fasts to Edinburgh stop only at York & Newcastle, much of what I’ve seen so far would appear to be a worse service than now. Is there anything wrong with the current timetable that needs it to be changed?
 

Halish Railway

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Nevermind the marvellous aspiration to have the hourly fasts to Edinburgh stop only at York & Newcastle, much of what I’ve seen so far would appear to be a worse service than now. Is there anything wrong with the current timetable that needs it to be changed?
I'd say that adding an additional Newcastle service is pretty necessary given how impressive Edinburgh/Newcastle to London loadings have been post-Covid, so an additional service starting from Newcastle will alleviate some of the crowding. If AP tickets for these services are reasonably priced then I would imagine that non-time sensitive travellers will opt to book onto these services instead of those originating in Scotland, leaving more AP tickets available for Anglo-Scottish passengers.
 

Railperf

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What is the benefit of prioritizing London-(York)-Newcastle-Edinburgh?

People who want any intermediate station end up forced to sit on a stopper which would take them much longer, or change trains more often.

Take London to Darlington. 2h20 right now with just a York stop in the middle - the only station that will lose the fast.
With the new timetable folks travelling there would have to choose between additional stops at Peterborough and Doncaster, or alternatively Stevenage, potentially Peterborough, Grantham, Newark and Doncaster.
I don't know about you, but I like fast trains. At this rate we'll hit 125 for a maximum of 5-10 minutes before slowing down for the next stop. Let alone 140.

The fact is, that with the new timetable unless you are going to Edinburgh, Newcastle or (possibly) York, you can kiss fast journey times goodbye.
Then what's the benefit of shelling out and taking the train when I could just drive and get the same journey time door to door?

Once ETCS is up, somehow I feel the timetable will be adjusted to allow the London-York-Newcastle-Edinburgh to do 140 for as long as humanly possible, no matter how much everyone else gets slowed down.
The idea of a fast service between London the main hubs - York, Newcastle and Edinburgh works well if there is a stopping service that connects into it. So you would need a stopping service that can get to York or Newcastle - say 5 minutes before the fast arrives and that will sit and wait for the fast to depart ahead of it before following and serving the in -between stops. Of course it also helps if a semi fast can be flighted through too. Timetabling such a service on essentially a two track railway with freight in the mix and having to accommodate suburban GN and TL south of Hitching is always going to be the biggest challenge. In this case LNER could - as now provide the stopping service from London to York. Northern/TPE could provide the stopper between York and Newcastle/ Edinburgh. And XC to provide a semi fast from Leeds/ York to Edinburgh / Aberdeen.
Once Leeds to York electrification is complete, would it make sense to extend Kings Cross to Leeds services onwards to York to add extra capacity?
 

dk1

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Once Leeds to York electrification is complete, would it make sense to extend Kings Cross to Leeds services onwards to York to add extra capacity?

Only at times of disruption or engineering. It would be a waste of capacity and run very poorly loaded between York & Leeds. XC already cater for that market with the Plymouth-Edinburgh.
 

gabrielhj07

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Only at times of disruption or engineering. It would be a waste of capacity and run very poorly loaded between York & Leeds. XC already cater for that market with the Plymouth-Edinburgh.
Poorly loaded? I’ve rarely seen a York - Leeds train, stopping or not that wasn’t busy.
 

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