East Croydon route knowledge for Southeastern drivers and vice-versa?

[GodAtum]

I guess because Southeaster sometimes divert via East Croydon to Charing Cross (like last weekend), the drivers have route knowledge. Do Southern drivers have route knowledge of the Southeastern route?

 

[43066]

I guess because Southeaster sometimes divert via East Croydon to Charing Cross (like last weekend), the drivers have route knowledge. Do Southern drivers have route knowledge of the Southeastern route?

No. Southern services aren’t routinely diverted onto the SE network, because other options exist that side.

Some SE drivers (Tonbridge and Hastings) sign LBG to Tonbridge via Redhill for when the usual route via Sevenoaks is closed. The only other (ridiculous) way of doing it would be north Kent line to Strood, down the Medway valley line and reversal at Tonbridge!

 

[zwk500]

Do SE maintain that knowledge continuously or do they have to run refreshers in advance of the blocks?

Or is it similar to Avanti where some drivers know e.g. the Aston/Bescot diversion all the time, but for major blockades they still need to run refreshers for drivers that don't normally sign it?

 

[43066]

Do SE maintain that knowledge continuously or do they have to run refreshers in advance of the blocks?

Or is it similar to Avanti where some drivers know e.g. the Aston/Bescot diversion all the time, but for major blockades they still need to run refreshers for drivers that don't normally sign it?

AFAIK Hastings and Tonbridge sign it like a “normal” route and maintain it via route refresh days etc. Only those depots, though, so services driven by Ramsgate or Ashford drivers would need to be conducted.

 

[zwk500]

AFAIK Hastings and Tonbridge sign it like a “normal” route and maintain it via route refresh days etc.

Interesting, cheers. Must be quite rare to get diverted that way unplanned.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Interesting, cheers. Must be quite rare to get diverted that way unplanned.

Does happen though. There is 1 ecs a day that goes from London Bridge to Tonbridge via Redhill and back that helps maintain route knowledge.

 

[NSE]

Some SN Redhill-Tonbridge services are crewed by SE which will keep up a lot of route knowledge. I used it last Saturday and had this on my return service. I’m unsure if they crew any services forward to LBG or if they only do the Redhill-Tonbridge bit on SN stock.

 

[westcoaster]

Does happen though. There is 1 ecs a day that goes from London Bridge to Tonbridge via Redhill and back that helps maintain route knowledge.

Daily booked working now believe it goes
Tonbridge -London Bridge - Redhill (Shunts on the Tonbridge lines- London bridge - Tonbridge

Interestingly I see it most days, iirc on Tuesday it was a single 375/3 (normally a 4 car 375). First time I have seen a 3 car 375 in London by its self ever.

 

[BJames]

Some SN Redhill-Tonbridge services are crewed by SE which will keep up a lot of route knowledge. I used it last Saturday and had this on my return service. I’m unsure if they crew any services forward to LBG or if they only do the Redhill-Tonbridge bit on SN stock.

I always thought SE exclusively crewed this - is it also crewed by Southern? Every time I've used this route it has been a Southeastern conductor and driver (I use it probably every three months or so, usually when there are issues over on the Uckfield branch).

No. Southern services aren’t routinely diverted onto the SE network, because other options exist that side.

Some SE drivers (Tonbridge and Hastings) sign LBG to Tonbridge via Redhill for when the usual route via Sevenoaks is closed. The only other (ridiculous) way of doing it would be north Kent line to Strood, down the Medway valley line and reversal at Tonbridge!

The East Croydon diversion is indeed incredibly useful and it's great that the link can be maintained. Quite like the fact it stops at East Croydon too a lot of the time (not sure if it's every time it is used?) for convenience if needed, but I if I do need this line I do usually pick it up from London Bridge even if on diversion.

 

[NSE]

I always thought SE exclusively crewed this - is it also crewed by Southern? Every time I've used this route it has been a Southeastern conductor and driver (I use it probably every three months or so, usually when there are issues over on the Uckfield branch).


The East Croydon diversion is indeed incredibly useful and it's great that the link can be maintained. Quite like the fact it stops at East Croydon too a lot of the time (not sure if it's every time it is used?) for convenience if needed, but I if I do need this line I do usually pick it up from London Bridge even if on diversion.

Oh it might well be exclusive. First time I’ve used it so could easily be. I just knew from being on here they crewed it so wasn’t surprised to see them.

I also agree it’s a useful diversion. I needed to tick off the Redhill-Tonbridge line and so I took the chance to do it on the diversion (then SN back, hence seeing the SE crew). I’ve used the diversion a few times before northbound between London and East Croydon and it’s used well. It’s always stopped at Croydon. I’m fairly sure I’ve seen it stop at Redhill before but not this time.

 

[busestrains]

I always thought SE exclusively crewed this - is it also crewed by Southern? Every time I've used this route it has been a Southeastern conductor and driver (I use it probably every three months or so, usually when there are issues over on the Uckfield branch).


The East Croydon diversion is indeed incredibly useful and it's great that the link can be maintained. Quite like the fact it stops at East Croydon too a lot of the time (not sure if it's every time it is used?) for convenience if needed, but I if I do need this line I do usually pick it up from London Bridge even if on diversion.

Redhill to Tonbridge line Southern services are mostly worked by Southeastern Drivers and Southeastern Guards but a small amount of services are worked by Southern Drivers and Southern OBS instead.

The attached photo is a list of all of the services that Southeastern staff currently work. The few remaining journeys not listed are worked by Southern staff instead.



So only a very small amount of journeys are worked by Southern Drivers and Southern OBS which is why you have probably not seen them.

 

[Cricketer8for9]

This is a very longstanding diversionary route. That it is the Hastings services (as opposed to the Ashford ones) which get diverted may be a legacy of the time when neither the Hastings line nor the Tonbridge to Redhill lines were electrified. Sending the Hastings diesels that was was possible, sending the Ashford electrics wasn’t.

 

[Benjaminmorgan]

Where are the southern obs based for the Redhill to Tonbridge?

 

[busestrains]

Where are the southern obs based for the Redhill to Tonbridge?

They can be based anywhere. Since there is no route knowledge and they do not have to sign the route this means OBS from any depot can work any route. I have known of OBS from all six depots, Barnham, Brighton, East Croydon, Eastbourne, Horsham, London Victoria, depots to work the Redhill to Tonbridge services on multiple occasions. Occasionally the Gatwick Express OBS who are based at Redhill get put on it too but i have only seen this a few times. Sometimes it can be worked by the remaining Guards too from all four of the depots, Barnham, Brighton, Eastbourne, Selhurst, who act as an OBS (i believe they are known as Assisting Conductor when this happens) as the Guards do cover OBS turns very regularly too since to act as an OBS they do not need route knowledge. So the route can be worked by any OBS from any of the depots.

 

[Benjaminmorgan]

Cheers

 

[43066]

This is a very longstanding diversionary route. That it is the Hastings services (as opposed to the Ashford ones) which get diverted may be a legacy of the time when neither the Hastings line nor the Tonbridge to Redhill lines were electrified. Sending the Hastings diesels that was was possible, sending the Ashford electrics wasn’t.

Historically that makes sense, although they certainly also divert Kent coast trains that way these days during engineering. I was on one a few weeks back!

So only a very small amount of journeys are worked by Southern Drivers and Southern OBS which is why you have probably not seen them.

Thanks. I hadn’t appreciated quite that many were worked by SE crew. Of course SE drivers must be paired with guards, not OBS, so mixing and matching drivers and guards/OBSs isn’t really an option.

 

[busestrains]

Historically that makes sense, although they certainly also divert Kent coast trains that way these days during engineering. I was on one a few weeks back!



Thanks. I hadn’t appreciated quite that many were worked by SE crew. Of course SE drivers must be paired with guards, not OBS, so mixing and matching drivers and guards/OBSs isn’t really an option.

Indeed currently it must be Southeastern Drivers paired with Southeastern Guards or Southern Drivers paired with Southern OBS due to Southern going DOO and none of the remaining Southern Guards signing the route any more. They can not mix and match these days.

However before GTR went DOO a couple of years ago it was a lot more complicating. There was four different combinations used every day on the Redhill to Tonbridge services depending on the journey:

• Southeastern Drivers with Southeastern Guards
• Southeastern Drivers with Southern Guards
• Southern Drivers with Southeastern Guards
• Southern Drivers with Southern Guards

So it used to actually be very common for them to mix and match. I am just looking at the old crew diagrams from before GTR started DOO and there was a large amount of services everyday that were a Southeastern Driver and Southern Guard or a Southern Driver and a Southeastern Guard so this was previously common. So unfortunately Southern going DOO has actually reduced flexibility on this route a bit when it comes to staffing the trains.

 

[JonathanH]

Around the time of the disputes there were still through workings with Southeastern crew on Southern services north of Redhill. The services had to be noted as having special procedures on in the dispatchers office at East Croydon. That subsequently stopped, not least because Southern ceased through workings to the Tonbridge line in May 2018.

Historically that makes sense, although they certainly also divert Kent coast trains that way these days during engineering. I was on one a few weeks back!

Only ever trains from Tonbridge / Tonbridge Wells / Hastings via Redhill. The trains from Ashford and beyond divert via Maidstone East or to Victoria depending on where the block is.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Oh it might well be exclusive. First time I’ve used it so could easily be. I just knew from being on here they crewed it so wasn’t surprised to see them.

I also agree it’s a useful diversion. I needed to tick off the Redhill-Tonbridge line and so I took the chance to do it on the diversion (then SN back, hence seeing the SE crew). I’ve used the diversion a few times before northbound between London and East Croydon and it’s used well. It’s always stopped at Croydon. I’m fairly sure I’ve seen it stop at Redhill before but not this time.

They always call at East Croydon. And on Sunday's they will all call at Redhill too. Means that if there are no other engineering works on Sunday which is incredibly rare, Redhill can get 7tph into London, which is the best service it getsfull stop.

 

[43066]

Only ever trains from Tonbridge / Tonbridge Wells / Hastings via Redhill. The trains from Ashford and beyond divert via Maidstone East or to Victoria depending on where the block is.

Are you sure? You’ve got me wondering now(!) but I travel from SE London/LBG to Headcorn in Kent fairly regularly. I’m pretty adamant I was on an ex Ch + to Ashford working which went London Bridge - ECR - Redhill - Tonbridge over the summer.

No reason in principle that shouldn’t be possible as Tonbridge drivers sign the whole route.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Are you sure? You’ve got me wondering now(!) but I travel from SE London/LBG to Headcorn in Kent fairly regularly. I’m pretty adamant I was on an ex Ch + to Ashford working which went London Bridge - ECR - Redhill - Tonbridge over the summer.

No reason in principle that shouldn’t be possible as Tonbridge drivers sign the whole route.

There certainly aren't any booked workings like that.

 

[NSE]

I’ve never seen anything but Hastings workings diverted. But that’s not to say it hasn’t happened.

 

[Bikeman78]

Are you sure? You’ve got me wondering now(!) but I travel from SE London/LBG to Headcorn in Kent fairly regularly. I’m pretty adamant I was on an ex Ch + to Ashford working which went London Bridge - ECR - Redhill - Tonbridge over the summer.

No reason in principle that shouldn’t be possible as Tonbridge drivers sign the whole route.

There was a time when they ran 12 car diversions via Redhill, splitting and joining at Tonbridge, with portions for Hastings and Ashford. Not sure when that stopped happening. I've not paid much attention since 2005.

 

[MrB]

There was a time when they ran 12 car diversions via Redhill, splitting and joining at Tonbridge, with portions for Hastings and Ashford. Not sure when that stopped happening. I've not paid much attention since 2005.

SE have done this relatively recently I believe. It is usually Hastings services via Redhill, Kent Coast via Maidstone East or Otford, however.

 

[izvor]

I believe only Tonbridge sign for the Redhill route now. On a diverted up train about a year ago one Sunday, there was no Tonbridge driver to relieve/pilot the Hastings driver at TON so it was caped there.

What is silly is that Tonbridge still crew the Redhill line when it is restricted to RDH-EBR due to weekend engineering works. All taxi'ed to/from RDH. Often leads to last-minute cancellations due to failed taxis etc.