East Croydon to Gatwick

[signed]

Sorry for the basic copy of a earlier thread of mine about BZ6 to Gatwick

I bought a ticket from the forum website for a STP to Gatwick, while holding a Off-Peak Travelcard

I clicked checkout a bit too fast and have a East Croydon to Gatwick Any Permitted instead of the BZ6 I wanted, but that should be fine for the itinerary I initially want.

But to still have options, is this part of the zonal tickets split exemption and is it valid on Gatwick Express?

 

[yorkie]

No need for the train to call as you have a Daily Zonal ticket.

Presumably you searched specifically from ECR, rather than from Victoria with the existing Travelcard held option selected?

Some GTR staff think their GX brand is exempt from normal ticketing rules and may erroneously claim it is an invalid combination; if required to purchase a new ticket, I would do so under duress and take photos of the original tickets and replacement tickets, and feel free to contact me for advice on obtaining a full refund. (It would be very foolish of GTR staff to do this, given the impending legal action against the company, but nothing would surprise me!)

 

[signed]

Presumably you searched specifically from ECR, rather than from Victoria with the existing Travelcard held option selected?

I searched for St Pancras (as this is where that journey will start) to Gatwick and it gave me a LU + Thameslink from London Bridge which is fine for me (I mainly just wanted an accompanying itinerary for my own planning)

But I just wanted to make sure I have plenty of options to reach Gatwick, thanks a lot

If I end up using GX, what ticket should I insert in the GX gateline? The extension I imagine?

 

[JonathanH]

If I end up using GX, what ticket should I insert in the GX gateline? The extension I imagine?

The travelcard. The extension isn't valid at London Victoria. At Gatwick, the extension.

 

[yorkie]

I searched for St Pancras (as this is where that journey will start) to Gatwick and it gave me a LU + Thameslink from London Bridge which is fine for me (I mainly just wanted an accompanying itinerary for my own planning)

But I just wanted to make sure I have plenty of options to reach Gatwick, thanks a lot

Looks like we default to a specific station if the train calls there, otherwise BZ6 is offered if there is no call.

Specifying via VIC, and selecting a GX service, I get BZ6 fares offered:

Ticket Information | RailUK Tickets

TrainSplit is a free service that makes it easy to find the cheapest train tickets for your journey.

tickets-beta.railforums.co.uk

The Croydon ticket is still valid and I would definitely encourage you to use it on GX, to check that GTR are behaving themselves as I would be very interested to hear if they aren't!

 

[Jan Mayen]

GX On Board Supervisors routinely announce that split tickets aren't valid. I assume they also won't work the barriers at Platform 13/14 at Victoria (which are the platforms Gatwick Express usually use, and are set to charge the higher fare for contactless and Oyster users).
Perhaps just use Southern to avoid any issues, until the legal case is finished?

 

[yorkie]

GX On Board Supervisors routinely announce that split tickets aren't valid.

Interesting; can anyone get hold of recordings of these please?

I assume they also won't work the barriers at Platform 13/14 at Victoria (which are the platforms Gatwick Express usually use, and are set to charge the higher fare for contactless and Oyster users).

Yes a Travelcard by itself may not work the barriers; staff should allow passage on productuon of all tickets. If they are denying customers their contractual rights, this needs to be documented and investigated.

Perhaps just use Southern to avoid any issues, until the legal case is finished?

Err, no; quite the opposite, I would say.

 

[MrJeeves]

I would assume that staff are saying splits aren't valid as some retailers offer Victoria - Croydon - Gatwick as a split, which wouldn't be valid on GX.

I'd also say that technically ECR - GTW wouldn't be valid as it's neither a call point, nor the last station in Zones 1-6 for the journey being made, which would be Coulsdon South, nor is it a Boundary Zone ticket.

In reality, though, in combination with a Travelcard, I think it's highly unlikely that any on board staff would have an issue. Potentially untrained barrier staff would, however.

 

[signed]

I'd also say that technically ECR - GTW wouldn't be valid as it's neither a call point, nor the last station in Zones 1-6 for the journey being made, which would be Coulsdon South, nor is it a Boundary Zone ticket.

Does a boundary ticket has to be to/from the last/first station on the zone? BOJ being allowed

 

[Jan Mayen]

Interesting; can anyone get hold of recordings of these please?

Yes a Travelcard by itself may not work the barriers; staff should allow passage on productuon of all tickets. If they are denying customers their contractual rights, this needs to be documented and investigated.

Err, no; quite the opposite, I would say.

I was offering advice to someone who (I assume) wanted a trouble free journey.
Anyone using a split is likely to have a bit of bother on Gatwick Express, and may end up having to submit a claim for the extra costs incurred when (if) the case against GTR succeeds.
I therefore stand by my advice.

 

[MrJeeves]

Does a boundary ticket has to be to/from the last/first station on the zone? BOJ being allowed

In theory, the NRCoT states when splitting with zonal tickets (such as a Travelcard) you should use a boundary zone ticket or a ticket to/from the last station covered by the zones for the journey being made.

 

[talldave]

In theory, the NRCoT states when splitting with zonal tickets (such as a Travelcard) you should use a boundary zone ticket or a ticket to/from the last station covered by the zones for the journey being made.

Surely that's got to be an "error" in s14.3? Or would TOCs seriously prosecute a passenger with overlapping tickets who's paid more money than necessary for the journey?

 

[MrJeeves]

Surely that's got to be an "error" in s14.3? Or would TOCs seriously prosecute a passenger with overlapping tickets who's paid more money than necessary for the journey?

I also doubt anyone would seriously consider creating an issue of it, but there are likely occasions where a ticket from further up the line is cheaper than one further down which the strict wording of the rule may be trying to prevent the use of.

 

[talldave]

I also doubt anyone would seriously consider creating an issue of it, but there are likely occasions where a ticket from further up the line is cheaper than one further down which the strict wording of the rule may be trying to prevent the use of.

Good point. However it complicates the issue in that the passenger has to know the last station that their first ticket is valid to - not always obvious for Travelcards. A cautious "I'll get a ticket from East Croydon, that'll more than cover it" actually leads the passenger into a non-valid situation if the train doesn't stop, the OP being one example.

 

[MrJeeves]

Good point. However it complicates the issue in that the passenger has to know the last station that their first ticket is valid to - not always obvious for Travelcards. A cautious "I'll get a ticket from East Croydon, that'll more than cover it" actually leads the passenger into a non-valid situation if the train doesn't stop, the OP being one example.

Indeed, which is exactly the reason Boundary Zone tickets exist!

 

[miklcct]

If I end up using GX, what ticket should I insert in the GX gateline? The extension I imagine?

Yes a Travelcard by itself may not work the barriers; staff should allow passage on productuon of all tickets. If they are denying customers their contractual rights, this needs to be documented and investigated.

The travelcard. The extension isn't valid at London Victoria. At Gatwick, the extension.

Although not directly relevant to the OP, unfortunately, due to technical reasons, you can't use an Oyster Travelcard in this way. The Gatwick Express barriers are not in any fare zones and an incomplete journey on the Gatwick Express would be charged as a result.

I queried Gatwick Express customer service a while ago on this fact, and the result was that they prevented me to use this route by putting negative easements through Clapham Junction on the London Thameslink - Brighton ticket I intended to use. (The zones I had was 1-2, the customer service said that I would need zones 1-3 on my Travelcard in order to use this combination)

 

[talldave]

Indeed, which is exactly the reason Boundary Zone tickets exist!

True, but s14.3 isn't applicable to Boundary Zone tickets. And TOCs/retailers have traditionally made buying them an activity with a difficulty rating somewhere between inconvenient and impossible (cf the OP's experience!).

 

[signed]

with a difficulty rating somewhere between inconvenient and impossible (cf the OP's experience!).

To be fair, it's neither inconvenient nor impossible on Trainsplit, it's 1 click away, it's just my bad for not checking before checkout.

 

[27000]

I was offering advice to someone who (I assume) wanted a trouble free journey.
Anyone using a split is likely to have a bit of bother on Gatwick Express, and may end up having to submit a claim for the extra costs incurred when (if) the case against GTR succeeds.
I therefore stand by my advice.

I note that the latest version (September 2024) of the TfL/National Rail "London's Rail and Tube Services" map specifically states that Travelcards are not valid on Gatwick Express. This is, I believe, a new restriction.

This would imply that the combination of Zone 1-6 Travelcard and Boundary Zone 6-Gatwick Airport split tickets would no longer be valid on Gatwick Express. Thoughts?

 

[yorkie]

I note that the latest version (September 2024) of the TfL/National Rail "London's Rail and Tube Services" map specifically states that Travelcards are not valid on Gatwick Express. This is, I believe, a new restriction.

This would imply that the combination of Zone 1-6 Travelcard and Boundary Zone 6-Gatwick Airport split tickets would no longer be valid on Gatwick Express. Thoughts?

A Travelcard by itself (i.e. no outboundary add-on, or additional ticket used in combination) is not valid on any train that is first stop beyond the Zones; that's all it is saying.

It's exactly the same with Freedom Passes.

There is no "brand restriction" on Travelcards* and the legitimacy of purported brand restrictions has been debated elsewhere.

* Any Travelcard that has a TOC restriction only applies to out-boundary Travelcards and applies to the non-Travelcard element, i.e. from the origin station to the boundary of Zone 6 (and vice-versa in the opposite direction).

 

[miklcct]

A Travelcard by itself (i.e. no outboundary add-on, or additional ticket used in combination) is not valid on any train that is first stop beyond the Zones; that's all it is saying.

It's exactly the same with Freedom Passes.

There is no "brand restriction" on Travelcards* and the legitimacy of purported brand restrictions has been debated elsewhere.

* Any Travelcard that has a TOC restriction only applies to out-boundary Travelcards and applies to the non-Travelcard element, i.e. from the origin station to the boundary of Zone 6 (and vice-versa in the opposite direction).

Do you think that the text refers to the fact that an Oyster Travelcard can't be used on Gatwick Express even with an extension ticket?

Heathrow Express, Gatwick Express and Southeastern High Speed are the only services which do not belong to the zonal system in the Oyster network and are considered premium services, although on paper Southeastern High Speed and Gatwick Express are no different to any other regular National Rail services.

 

[Hadders]

A Travelcard held on Oyster with an appropriate extension ticket is valid on Gatwick Express branded services.

 

[yorkie]

Do you think that the text refers to the fact that an Oyster Travelcard can't be used on Gatwick Express even with an extension ticket?

Heathrow Express, Gatwick Express and Southeastern High Speed are the only services which do not belong to the zonal system in the Oyster network and are considered premium services, although on paper Southeastern High Speed and Gatwick Express are no different to any other regular National Rail services.

This is you own interpretation and isn't quite correct. You have conflated different concepts into one and cone up with your own wording to link them in your mind.

There are no stations on HS1 (other than St Pancras itself) that are deemed to be within the Zones; Stratford International isn't a member of any zones, despite the geography. The brand is irrelevant. This is in no way comparable to the Brighton main line / GX route.

Heathrow Express isn't comparable; it's not a franchised operator, it does operate on stations within the Zones (so is not comparable to HS1 services) but the operator itself is outside the Travelcard Agreement. This is in no way comparable to GTR.

 

[miklcct]

A Travelcard held on Oyster with an appropriate extension ticket is valid on Gatwick Express branded services.

So can you please explain the fact that if I attempt to use an Oyster season Travelcard in the same way on the Gatwick Express, an incomplete GX fare will be charged? Doesn't it mean that the Oyster system doesn't think that a Travelcard held on Oyster is not valid on Gatwick Express services?

In particular, can anyone holding a Zone 1-3 (or larger) Travelcard try to make this journey with an appropriate extension ticket (such as a London Thameslink - Brighton ticket) and query GTR on your journey experience if a fare is charged? I attempted to use a Zone 1-2 Travelcard and resulted in GTR changing the Routeing Guide preventing me to use the extension via Clapham Junction, but with a Zone 1-3 Travelcard, such extension is valid via Streatham Common which GX passes through but not stops.

This is you own interpretation and isn't quite correct. You have conflated different concepts into one and cone up with your own wording to link them in your mind.

There are no stations on HS1 (other than St Pancras itself) that are deemed to be within the Zones; Stratford International isn't a member of any zones, despite the geography. The brand is irrelevant. This is in no way comparable to the Brighton main line / GX route.

Heathrow Express isn't comparable; it's not a franchised operator, it does operate on stations within the Zones (so is not comparable to HS1 services) but the operator itself is outside the Travelcard Agreement. This is in no way comparable to GTR.

However, in the Oyster system, they are implemented in the same way. The Paddington HX gateline, the Victoria GX gateline, and all the HS1 gatelines do not have OSIs (out of station interchanges), do not participate in zonal caps and do not recognise zonal Travelcards.

 

[JonathanH]

The Paddington HX gateline, the Victoria GX gateline, and all the HS1 gatelines do not have OSIs (out of station interchanges), do not participate in zonal caps and do not recognise zonal Travelcards.

I think a touch on the Paddington HX gateline or Victoria GX gateline which ends somewhere in Zones 1-6 other than Heathrow will recognise a zonal cap. The issue you are describing is not completing the journey.

 

[yorkie]

So can you please explain the fact that if I attempt to use an Oyster season Travelcard in the same way on the Gatwick Express, an incomplete GX fare will be charged? Doesn't it mean that the Oyster system doesn't think that a Travelcard held on Oyster is not valid on Gatwick Express services?

This is a question for GTR; any such date must be refunded when using a Travelcard plus suitable extension ticket.

In particular, can anyone holding a Zone 1-3 (or larger) Travelcard try to make this journey with an appropriate extension ticket (such as a London Thameslink - Brighton ticket) and query GTR on your journey experience if a fare is charged?

Absolutely.

I attempted to use a Zone 1-2 Travelcard and resulted in GTR changing the Routeing Guide preventing me to use the extension via Clapham Junction, but with a Zone 1-3 Travelcard, such extension is valid via Streatham Common which GX passes through but not stops.

That routeing isn't relevant to this thread

However, in the Oyster system, they are implemented in the same way

Are you sure it's exactly the same?

. The Paddington HX gateline, the Victoria GX gateline, and all the HS1 gatelines do not have OSIs (out of station interchanges), do not participate in zonal caps and do not recognise zonal Travelcards.

I am not sure all that's true if the customer touches out at somewhere like East Croydon, but you are just introducing other matters into this debate (albeit more examples of wrongdoing on GTR's part) that really aren't relevant to the actual matter in hand.

 

[Sonic1234]

I am not sure all that's true if the customer touches out at somewhere like East Croydon

It is true, I used the GX gateline at Victoria when a Southern service was using that platform (to a destination within the Zones) and it didn't recognise the OSI from the tube. I got charged the tube fare and the National Rail fare separately.

TfL did refund me the excess, they answered my email with a phone call. All to give me about 50p back.

 

[JonathanH]

It is true, I used the GX gateline at Victoria when a Southern service was using that platform (to a destination within the Zones) and it didn't recognise the OSI from the tube. I got charged the tube fare and the National Rail fare separately.

Yes, the lack of OSI is not in question. However, a journey from Victoria GX to East Croydon should still be subject to the standard fare for Victoria to East Croydon and zonal capping.

 

[miklcct]

Yes, the lack of OSI is not in question. However, a journey from Victoria GX to East Croydon should still be subject to the standard fare for Victoria to East Croydon and zonal capping.

How about using an Oyster Travelcard in this case? Will it incorrectly charge a fare even if you have Zones 1-5 loaded in it, because the Gatwick Express gateline will charge a fare even for Travelcard holders?

 

[jon0844]

I would assume that staff are saying splits aren't valid as some retailers offer Victoria - Croydon - Gatwick as a split, which wouldn't be valid on GX.

The last time I used it the OBS did indeed say split tickets via Croydon were not valid, not that all split tickets aren't allowed.