East Kilbride/Barrhead electrification updates

[najaB]

anything short of almost full electrification won't be much help for freight...

I got a Class 93 here that wants to talk with you about that statement.

 

[McRhu]

Was travelling from GLC to East Kilbride today and the new portals seem (to me at least) startlingly high. I know that Series 2 is quite lanky, but these seem to be reaching for the stars.

 

[Trainbike46]

I got a Class 93 here that wants to talk with you about that statement.

The class 93 (and class 99) are amazing innovations, but isn't the battery mostly intended to cover the last bit in goods yards, not to cover relatively long stretches without OHLE, simply because there isn't enough space for batteries?

 

[najaB]

The class 93 (and class 99) are amazing innovations, but isn't the battery mostly intended to cover the last bit in goods yards, not to cover relatively long stretches without OHLE, simply because there isn't enough space for batteries?

That, and to assist the diesel engine for peak power. The Class 93 is 1,200hp on diesel and 1,700hp with battery assistance. I'm sure that's plenty enough to handle the short tank trains up to Aberdeen Waterloo.

 

[Class 170101]

but ultimately the correct one.

Back then maybe so but now? Seems rather short sighted to install a small amount of OLE at the Tweedbank terminus and not bother with (most of) the rest of the line or have I mis-read the current proposal?

 

[waverley47]

Back then maybe so but now? Seems rather short sighted to install a small amount of OLE at the Tweedbank terminus and not bother with (most of) the rest of the line or have I mis-read the current proposal?

The correct decision back then was not to wire it, as the extra few million probably would have pushed the bcr into outrageous territory, and the like likely wouldn't have been built after all. It was near enough getting shelved as is.

The correct decision now is to decarbonise as much as possible, as fast as possible.

That means doing the easy bits now, to allow removal of life expired DMUs.* This let's you switch over as soon as possible to BMUs, which decarbonise, but doesn't let you switch to full EMUs, which is efficient.

You come back later and do the middle bits, which lets you switch completely.

The ScotGov position is one that decarbonising the network quickly is better than doing it efficiently. I would agree, however other authorities may prefer to take longer and do it more efficiently, by switching to EMUs first.**


*remember there's a deadline for removing the 156, 158, and HST fleets, which is how many years you can get out of them. Currently, the deadline is the lifespan of the 156s, as when they go, the 158s will need to be moved onto the rural routes in the interim, and there will suddenly be a big hole in the suburban DMU fleet.

**the inefficency in the ScotGov plan is the cost of batteries and battery maintenance, plus extra wire wear from panning up. In the long run, not that expensive.

 

[Trainbike46]

Back then maybe so but now? Seems rather short sighted to install a small amount of OLE at the Tweedbank terminus and not bother with (most of) the rest of the line or have I mis-read the current proposal?

The long term plan is to fully wire the line; they jsut start with partial wiring to allow new trains to come in ASAP

 

[Bald Rick]

Back then maybe so but now?

Yes the correct decision now. It would have cost about an extra £70m to wire up the line at the then prevailing cheapest electrification rates. That assumes no new feeder station.

Partial electrification now will cost a small fraction of that, and even allowing for the extra cost of battery trains over straight EMUs, we get electric trains for much less cash.

Seems rather short sighted to install a small amount of OLE at the Tweedbank terminus and not bother with (most of) the rest of the line

Why? It’s saved the taxpayer a load of cash.

 

[Class 170101]

Yes the correct decision now. It would have cost about an extra £70m to wire up the line at the then prevailing cheapest electrification rates. That assumes no new feeder station.

Partial electrification now will cost a small fraction of that, and even allowing for the extra cost of battery trains over straight EMUs, we get electric trains for much less cash.

But you are still deferring expenditure from today until tomorrow. The wiring will either be done or need doing eventually. Should be done properly the 1st time, learn lessons from the ECML wiring, cheap at installation but with higher ongoing maintenance costs.

Why? It’s saved the taxpayer a load of cash.

But still needs blocks to achieve what little is being done. At least make the blocks worthwhile. Something NR are extremely poor at.

 

[snowball]

But you are still deferring expenditure from today until tomorrow. The wiring will either be done or need doing eventually. Should be done properly the 1st time, learn lessons from the ECML wiring, cheap at installation but with higher ongoing maintenance costs.

No, you're absolutely not deferring expenditure from today until tomorrow. Once you've electrified enough of a line to introduce battery trains, you move on to partially electrify another line, and get more quickly the benefits of removing diesel.

 

[themiller]

Why? It’s saved the taxpayer a load of cash.

That assumes that your only factor is cash. In reality, it’s much more complicated than that - environment, workforce availability etc.

 

[Bald Rick]

But you are still deferring expenditure from today until tomorrow.

That’s not right. It is not incurring expenditure at all. The line won’t be fully electrified.

 

[Trainbike46]

That’s not right. It is not incurring expenditure at all. The line won’t be fully electrified.

Unless the plans have very recently changed transport Scotland is absolutely planning to fully wire up the borders railway

 

[najaB]

Unless the plans have very recently changed transport Scotland is absolutely planning to fully wire up the borders railway

I thought they had only committed to mostly wiring it.

 

[Bald Rick]

Unless the plans have very recently changed transport Scotland is absolutely planning to fully wire up the borders railway

They won’t.

 

[Frankton Junct]

Just to interrupt this discussion with an on topic post:

The [Strathbungo] Society has had the following communication from Network Rail:

Following successful demolition of the Nithsdale Road bridge deck, I wanted to update you on some aspects of the project taking place within the Strathbungo area.

Columns

During one of our previous discussions with the Strathbungo Society, the four columns under the road bridge were discussed, and how these could possibly be saved and re-utilised. We weren’t able to confirm the condition of the columns until the bridge deck demolition was carried out. Now that has been done, I can confirm that we were able to retain the columns in good condition.

We’ve had some interest from Caledonian Railway, but we are keen to establish if there is an appetite within the Strathbungo community to re-use these locally. [...]

Footbridge

As you will be aware, last spring we carried out a public vote for the design of the new footbridge between Moray Place and Darnley Road. Three artist impressions of bridge designs were given to the community, based on construction drawings of the bridge built at Aristotle Lane in Oxford. The vast majority of residents voted for Bridge A.

The chosen bridge was taken forward through a detailed design process. We also took on board feedback around concerns raised about certain specific aspects of the bridge. As part of the detailed design phase, the designs were adjusted accordingly to address these comments and concerns.

BRIDGE A DETAILED VISUALS

I’ve included detailed visuals of the bridge below, which include a few enhancements to the original images:

Height of top chord (curve) – the 3D visual showed parapets at a significant height (+2.3m). This did not meet the aspirations of a simple, modest structure and the designers were asked to reduce the height to 1.8m (the parapet height standard over electrified lines).

Colour – the structure is black and white to reflect the colours used in the current footbridge. It was previously shown as all grey.

Stair units – only the lower part of the stair unit is to be clad in stone. The balustrades are now open steelwork and will match the railings found at Moray Place in profile and colour (black).

The entrance to either end of the bridge has been fanned out to address concerns of some residents for a more open approach to improve visibility for users.

The designs will now be submitted to the council planning team for Prior Approval. At the same time, we are submitting a listed building application for the removal of the existing C-listed footbridge.

Of Bridges and Network Rail

 

[Trainbike46]

I thought they had only committed to mostly wiring it.

wasn't the strategy to do partial first, and then fill in the gaps later on? That's how I read the decarbonisation strategy. Though I guess "we'll do it later" isn't the most confidence-inspiring sentence

 

[NotATrainspott]

They won’t.

In isolation that would make sense but if something approaching full electrification will happen for Fife, then I'm not so sure. Why would you keep a tiny subfleet of proper battery EMUs around just for the Tweedbank runs once normal* EMUs can do Fife/Dundee/Perth runs?

Some degree of battery-only capability seems inevitable for future EMU fleets, but I don't see them carrying around enough batteries to get from Shawfair to Bowshank. At most they'd be able to power themselves across the Forth or Tay bridges, or through Kinghorn tunnel.

It won't be that important a question for a good few years yet. It'll be a while before we run out of wiring sections to enable BEMU runs and we can justify joining them up.

 

[najaB]

Some degree of battery-only capability seems inevitable for future EMU fleets, but I don't see them carrying around enough batteries to get from Shawfair to Bowshank. At most they'd be able to power themselves across the Forth or Tay bridges, or through Kinghorn tunnel.

Depends how long-term you're speaking about, but I expect that the trains being purchased now will be capable of several (tens of) miles operation off the wires and will remain in service into the late 2030s.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Depends how long-term you're speaking about, but I expect that the trains being purchased now will be capable of several (tens of) miles operation off the wires and will remain in service into the late 2030s.

Would be my best guess too

 

[snowball]

Depends how long-term you're speaking about, but I expect that the trains being purchased now will be capable of several (tens of) miles operation off the wires and will remain in service into the late 2030s.

That would be an unusually short lifetime - the trains that are soon to be ordered are for delivery between 2027-30 and will be a mixture of EMUs and BEMUs (in what proportion we don't yet know). EMUs are often considered to have a lifetime up to 40 years.

I would expect the BEMUs to be capable of having the batteries removed and operate as straight EMUs.

-----------------------------------------

In reply to NotATrainspott, I'd say there is no evidence yet of any intention to have short gaps in electrification, such as just the Forth bridge or just Kinghorn tunnel, at any stage (except perhaps around Perth).

 

[najaB]

That would be an unusually short lifetime - the trains that are soon to be ordered are for delivery between 2027-30 and will be a mixture of EMUs and BEMUs (in what proportion we don't yet know). EMUs are often considered to have a lifetime up to 40 years.

I meant to write the late 2050s! But maybe that was a little too short as well.

 

[Trainbike46]

I meant to write the late 2050s! But maybe that was a little too short as well.

The batteries might require replacement before the train does though, and that will inevitably lead to the question as to whether we will still actually need the batteries, even though the units would hopefully last till 2060 at least

 

[InOban]

Decarbonisation of Scotland’s Railways

The Scottish Government has published its Infrastructure Plan for the next 5 years. It states that £550 million will be spent on rail decarbonisation over the period. It also states that £200 million will be invested in the Aberdeen- Central Belt line. A total of £1.2 billion will be spent on...

www.railforums.co.uk

Surely almost all the recent posts in this thread belong here?

 

[XAM2175]

Decarbonisation of Scotland’s Railways

The Scottish Government has published its Infrastructure Plan for the next 5 years. It states that £550 million will be spent on rail decarbonisation over the period. It also states that £200 million will be invested in the Aberdeen- Central Belt line. A total of £1.2 billion will be spent on...

www.railforums.co.uk

Surely almost all the recent posts in this thread belong here?

Hah, that whole thread used to be in this forum until it was derailed by speculation.

 

[Nottingham59]

I don't see them carrying around enough batteries to get from Shawfair to Bowshank. At most they'd be able to power themselves across the Forth or Tay bridges, or through Kinghorn tunnel.

BEMU's already in fleet service in Europe have ranges off the wires of typically 80km to 160km. See for instance the Flirt AKKU, which claims 150 km range in battery mode and 15 min charging time under catenary: https://www.stadlerrail.com/en/flirt-akku/details/

EDIT: which to me makes them perfect now for East Kilbride / Barrhead services until the lines are electrified, when they could be cascaded to other routes.

 

[snowball]

Decarbonisation of Scotland’s Railways

The Scottish Government has published its Infrastructure Plan for the next 5 years. It states that £550 million will be spent on rail decarbonisation over the period. It also states that £200 million will be invested in the Aberdeen- Central Belt line. A total of £1.2 billion will be spent on...

www.railforums.co.uk

Surely almost all the recent posts in this thread belong here?

Hah, that whole thread used to be in this forum until it was derailed by speculation.

Not quite. There have been two threads with similar titles. The one linked by InOban ("Decarbonisation of Scotland's Railways") was a short-lived thread from Feb 2021 and is still in "Infrastructure and Stations" but is now closed. I have no idea why it was closed.

InOban was probably intending to link the other one, "Decarbonising Scotland's Railways":

Decarbonising Scotland’s Railways

Noticed these ‘Rail Demand Assumptions’ on pages 123-125 of the Zero Emission Energy for Transport Report published last month: 2023  Electrification Complete: Glasgow Central to Barrhead 2024  Electrification Complete: Glasgow Central to East Kilbride  Service Introductions and Rolling...

www.railforums.co.uk

which has existed for just over two months and is in my view a very valuable thread. It was originally in "Infrastructure and Stations" but at one stage became deeply involved in suggestions about the Stranraer line and got moved to the Speculation section. It then reverted to being less speculative.

I think it's important to have an information-based thread on this subject in "Infrastructure and Stations". I think we should ask the mods to move "Decarbonising Scotland's Railways" back here, and then move a lot of posts there from the last couple of pages of this present thread.

 

[yorkie]

If anyone has a request for moderators, this needs to be made via the report button please; if the request relates to several posts, please just report the first such post in any given thread, and include any relevant post numbers for any subsequent posts (this would not normally be your own post)

We can consider requests to move posts from one thread to an eixsting or new thread, but we would need a list of any such posts (and if it's a new thread, a suggestion for a new thread title).

For any infrastructure projects where people wish to both speculate and provide/read updates, we do require two threads: one for the updates and another for speculation. Speculative posts do not belong outside the speculative section please.

If anyone has any questions/comments please contact us directly, many thanks

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

BEMU's already in fleet service in Europe have ranges off the wires of typically 80km to 160km. See for instance the Flirt AKKU, which claims 150 km range in battery mode and 15 min charging time under catenary: https://www.stadlerrail.com/en/flirt-akku/details/

EDIT: which to me makes them perfect now for East Kilbride / Barrhead services until the lines are electrified, when they could be cascaded to other routes.

Given Scotrail have decide BEMUS have a place in the fleet they shouldn't have bothered with East Kilbride just used BEMUs for Barrhead its stepping stone to going further South so that makes sense.

 

[Southsider]

Any news of progress on this project? I’d have thought they would be erecting masts in stations by now.