East Lancashire Railway/Metrolink

[snowball]

As I understand it, Network Rail remains responsible for maintaining both its own and Metrolink's tracks from Altrincham through Navigation Road to the point where the routes separate at the former Deansgate Junction, so does this lead to occasional use of the crossover in possessions?

 

[Spartacus]

I doubt that any steam loco larger than a 0-4-0T could get round the curves at Manchester Victoria.....

Might be a job for the KWVR's pug once it's overhauled

 

[edwin_m]

Sorry to pour cold water but any heavy rail vehicle would derail as soon as it went onto street track, as the wheel flanges would not fit in the grooves. Glasgow trams had a slightly narrower track gauge so wagons could be hauled with both flange tips in the grooves, but with standard gauge street track the distance between the grooves is larger than the distance between the flanges.

 

[507 001]

I doubt that any steam loco larger than a 0-4-0T could get round the curves at Manchester Victoria.....

Indeed, also very little will fit under the OHLE at Queens Road Junction and Whitefield.

A J94 made it to the top of Radcliffe bank early last year (without permission I might add, it was supposed to be a diesel) but couldn't go any further.

Engineering trains typically use Dogfish wagons from the ELR

It's used for engineering access/the odd stock borrowing by metrolink. Very much a "you scratch my back" type thing, the floodlights on Buckley Wells were left there by Metrolink after they were done borrowing the yard, according to the gents that teach the ELR's basic safety course.

One of their old T68s is actually on road minus one at Buckley Wells, coverred in graffiti and generally just in the way in some people's opinion. Personally i'd like to see it restored and put in the transport museum, space permitting of course.

The Bury Loco connection is currently OOU as the track is still damaged after the runaway MPV. The aftermath of said incident has resulted in enhanced protection of the Main Line in the form of derailers.

As I understand it, Network Rail remains responsible for maintaining both its own and Metrolink's tracks from Altrincham through Navigation Road to the point where the routes separate at the former Deansgate Junction, so does this lead to occasional use of the crossover in possessions?

Yes they are responsible for track and S&T. We are responsible for OHLE and stations.

The Crossover is still officially available for use but hasn't been for a number of years. Indeed there hasn't been any major track work down there for a long time. The track is in quite a state!

 

[Jack Hay]

As I understand it, Network Rail remains responsible for maintaining both its own and Metrolink's tracks from Altrincham through Navigation Road to the point where the routes separate at the former Deansgate Junction, so does this lead to occasional use of the crossover in possessions?

NR do signal and maintain that stretch of Metrolink, so yes it could lead to occasional use of the crossover during possessions, but AFAIK there have been no possessions of the Timperley-Altrincham section by NR for a long time.

 

[The_Rail_WAy]

I am surprised this one has not been mentioned already but....

When the Metrolink was opened in the early 90's the ELR sent a 'Thomas the Tank Engine' replica steam engine overnight down the line to Queens Road Depot for promotional reasons.

This lead to a rather belearingly drunken man claim: "That's it i'm going home, Ive just seen Thomas the f****** Thomas the Tank turn up!"

Edit/Link/Footage:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDOo3NMwMY4

 

[The_Rail_WAy]

In addition to this steam and diesel services have run the metals along the metals down the Radcliffe section...

 

[trinityboy]

I am surprised this one has not been mentioned already but....

When the Metrolink was opened in the early 90's the ELR sent a 'Thomas the Tank Engine' replica steam engine overnight down the line to Queens Road Depot for promotional reasons.

This lead to a rather belearingly drunken man claim: "That's it i'm going home, Ive just seen Thomas the f****** Thomas the Tank turn up!"

Edit/Link/Footage:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDOo3NMwMY4

Very amused by that video, not only seeing myself getting onto the tram back to Victoria at the end, but also seeing myself reflected in the glass as 'The End' comes up on screen. Spooky

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk

 

[The_Rail_WAy]

Very amused by that video, not only seeing myself getting onto the tram back to Victoria at the end, but also seeing myself reflected in the glass as 'The End' comes up on screen. Spooky

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk

Haha superb trinityboy,

it truely is a remarkable video seeing steam run on metrolink metals is simply majestic!!

T_R_W

 

[alexl92]

I am surprised this one has not been mentioned already but....

When the Metrolink was opened in the early 90's the ELR sent a 'Thomas the Tank Engine' replica steam engine overnight down the line to Queens Road Depot for promotional reasons.

This lead to a rather belearingly drunken man claim: "That's it i'm going home, Ive just seen Thomas the f****** Thomas the Tank turn up!"

Edit/Link/Footage:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDOo3NMwMY4

Quite appropriate that 'Thomas' is a Hudswell Clarke Manchester Ship Canal tank too.

 

[Dr_Paul]

A fascinating thread: I didn't know that these tramways were connected to the main railway network. I'm pretty certain that neither the Croydon Tram and the Dockland Light Railway in London has any physical connections, despite serving several mainline stations, often at adjoining platforms.

 

[Ianno87]

A fascinating thread: I didn't know that these tramways were connected to the main railway network. I'm pretty certain that neither the Croydon Tram and the Dockland Light Railway in London has any physical connections, despite serving several mainline stations, often at adjoining platforms.

You are correct - neither has any physical track connection.

 

[Dr_Paul]

That's what I thought, as I've travelled most of the DLR and Croydon Tram and not seen any connection. With that in mind and taking into consideration the -- to use the most apt word -- corners the rolling stock has to negotiate, might not it have been better had both lines been laid to metre gauge?

 

[edwin_m]

That's what I thought, as I've travelled most of the DLR and Croydon Tram and not seen any connection. With that in mind and taking into consideration the -- to use the most apt word -- corners the rolling stock has to negotiate, might not it have been better had both lines been laid to metre gauge?

Metre gauge might make the corners a bit easier but it could also limit the maximum speed on the fast sections. Also any non-standard gauge increases rolling stock costs because bespoke components will be required, unless you're lucky enough to ride on the back of an order from one of the fairly few metre gauge rapid transit networks.

A few bits of the off-street track on Tramlink are re-used from the previous heavy rail route between Croydon and Wimbledon.

 

[D1009]

Metre gauge might make the corners a bit easier but it could also limit the maximum speed on the fast sections. Also any non-standard gauge increases rolling stock costs because bespoke components will be required, unless you're lucky enough to ride on the back of an order from one of the fairly few metre gauge rapid transit networks.

A few bits of the off-street track on Tramlink are re-used from the previous heavy rail route between Croydon and Wimbledon.

Some railways in Switzerland manage a 100 km/h line speed on metre gauge, and there must be other examples elsewhere in Europe, and metre gauge vehicles are definitely available from European suppliers.

 

[Philip]

Any particular reason why the Clifton-Bury section wasn't reopened when the rest of the line was?

 

[Chester1]

Any particular reason why the Clifton-Bury section wasn't reopened when the rest of the line was?

Yes. There is not enough demand to justify any form of reopening, Radcliffe to Clifton is not a large market. In addition the southern section is now a trail though a nature reserve and any reopening would require heavy rail north of Radcliffe or light rail south of Clifton. The cost of upgrading the ELR to provide a commuter servce into Victoria was estimated at about £22-23m (about 4-5 years ago?) Which I think included reinstating the southern junction at Heywood. That would be much cheaper, help people living north of Bury and has a fairly decent business case for peak time only services when heritage trains wouldn't run.

 

[snowball]

In addition the route was severed in about 1971 by the M62 (now M60) about a mile north of Clifton Junction. A large new bridge would be needed (though there's a retaining wall alongside the motorway that could serve as one abutment).

In addition there's a modern road, Pilkington Way, on the trackbed at Radcliffe (a diversion of the A665 to bypass the town centre). That's much more recent than the M62/M60 but I can't remember its exact date.

 

[Philip]

Fair enough. Nonetheless if the line had remained open in the first place would it be a quicker route between Manchester and Bury than the Metrolink line is?

 

[Chester1]

Fair enough. Nonetheless if the line had remained open in the first place would it be a quicker route between Manchester and Bury than the Metrolink line is?

I doubt it. Clifton's daily service takes 15 minutes to Victoria. The entire journey from Bury to Victoria is about 25 minutes or so. The only viable heavy rail service from Bury to Manchester would be using the ELR between Bury and Castleton. A journey time matching Metrolink and only requiring one extra DMU for an hourly service would be feasible. The electric supply is being upgraded to support 3 double tram services (compared with 1 single and 1 double currently), Trafford Park services will terminate at Crumpsall from 2020 and could be extended to Bury if the old signalling north of Crumpsall was replaced. I can't see Bury needing more than 15 tph. Any ELR service would need to be justifed by providing a service for Heywood, Ramsbottom etc.

 

[billio]

Fair enough. Nonetheless if the line had remained open in the first place would it be a quicker route between Manchester and Bury than the Metrolink line is?

From the 1860's to the 1960's the fastest trains took 14/15 minutes to travel from Bury to Salford/Manchester via Clifton Junction.

 

[muddythefish]

ed. I can't see Bury needing more than 15 tph. Any ELR service would need to be justifed by providing a service for Heywood, Ramsbottom etc.

I was in Rammy a few months ago - it's a thriving place that has become quite fashionable as a commuter town for larger towns in the area with some good restaurants and bars that are packed in the evenings. Struck me that any sane transport policy would see the town have fast electric trains into Manchester. Certainly a town of that size so close to London would have a good rail service.

 

[W230]

I was in Rammy a few months ago - it's a thriving place that has become quite fashionable as a commuter town for larger towns in the area with some good restaurants and bars that are packed in the evenings. Struck me that any sane transport policy would see the town have fast electric trains into Manchester. Certainly a town of that size so close to London would have a good rail service.

I was also there back in the summer and thought just the same. First time i've been on a steam train - thought I was in the 60's or something!

But the town was packed and is clearly becoming a fashionable place to live. I got a few friends who now live in the vicinity and commute in to Manchester. Certainly down here it would be EMU all the way.

 

[Chester1]

I was also there back in the summer and thought just the same. First time i've been on a steam train - thought I was in the 60's or something!

But the town was packed and is clearly becoming a fashionable place to live. I got a few friends who now live in the vicinity and commute in to Manchester. Certainly down here it would be EMU all the way.

EMUs won't happen. DMUs and in the long term IPEMUs are posible. The resources for electrification will be in high demand for another decade or so and its too much money to spend on an unproven service. The Combined Authority part funding a Ramsbottom - Bury - Heywood - Victoria service is possible. As I said earlier, its been looked into and had a decent BCR but not high enough to placed high on the Combined Authority's list of priorities. The cost of infrastructure upgrades would be £22m and only a couple of DMUs would be needed to provide an hourly service.

 

[edwin_m]

The heritage railway wouldn't accept electrification equipment, unless maybe it closely resembled the third rail as installed on part of the route by the L&Y, and that's not going to happen due to safety standards. Anyone fancy modifying a 319 Flex to look as much as possible like a L&Y Railmotor?

 

[familyguy99]

I see few people mention about connections at Rochdale, funny enough I took picture there today while I was on tram. (sorry for poor photo)





^^ Track pretty much end there and I always thought one reason why isn't connected is due to TMS signals & equipment been in way but reading this thread seen like the were never plans to connect railway line to tram-line in this area.

 

[edwin_m]

There was a plan to connect at Rochdale, presumably so maintenance plant could get to the Rochdale-Oldham section that wouldn't be able to get through the streets of Oldham due to incompatible wheel profile, tight curves or simply size. I'm not sure why this was deleted but I wonder if it might be installed when (probably not for some years) major work is needed on this section.

 

[snowball]

but reading this thread seen like the were never plans to connect railway line to tram-line in this area.

Actually several posts on page 2 of this thread show that there was a plan.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

Actually several posts on page 2 of this thread show that there was a plan.

And it is connected, to provide access for engineering trains during construction of the Oldham - Rochdale section. It probably isn't "worked" but all the ironmongery is still there.

When the third platform at Rochdale was a grander plan (than the one that got built) this NR/Metrolink connection would have been removed.

 

[Ianno87]

And it is connected, to provide access for engineering trains during construction of the Oldham - Rochdale section. It probably isn't "worked" but all the ironmongery is still there.

When the third platform at Rochdale was a grander plan (than the one that got built) this NR/Metrolink connection would have been removed.

Sorry to contradict, but I don't think the two networks are indeed physically connected anymore at Rochdale.

There is a stub siding on the NR side (with buffer stops) - basically the truncation of the former NR route, and I think is still signalled. But the track no longer continues to meet the Metrolink tracks (even if it did during construction)