East Lancs Railway protects reputation by sacking leading woman in a male dominated sector?

[zwk500]

Agreed. Joanne posted facts which hardly constituted bad mouthing.

Facts are still able to bring an organisation into disrepute, of course.

 

[Wyrleybart]

Something that has occurred to me after rereading the news item I posted in #2 of this thread

Tracey Parkinson, general manager at ELR said traditionally women did not work on the footplate.

Yes, that is very probably the case on heritage railways with dirty filthy locos to work on. However, on the big railway there are considerably more women on the footplate with more joining every week. The TOC I work for has ten depots of drivers and only three of those ten have no footplate women at all. Some depots certainly have females in all roles, and one depot is actually fully female in both driver managers, guard managers / catering managers and Team organiser. We also regular have all girl crews of up to four staff including onboarders as well as lady on the front and the back.

So I wonder if Tracey Parkinson is actually trying to draw out what should in reality be an embarrassment into "look at us and how good we are" type event.

Question - did Joanne's talk published on youtube take place after her "sacking" by ELR ?

 

[D365]

Social media rules are one thing but when a certain Gary Lineker cites freedom of speech he is able to break the BBC's social media rules! Personally, I feel that "freedom of speech" disappeared a long time ago and there are restrictions on what we can say (and rightly so). However, most companies have (or should have) a social media policy (to protect the company) and if you are a servant or employee of that company it is worthwhile looking at it. You cannot always sound off however wronged you may feel. If you have a complaint in the workplace, you must go through the grievance procedure first before sounding off, noting also other procedures such as whistleblowing, complaints etc.

Freedom of speech =/= freedom from consequence. Simple as that.

I won't comment on the case in question as I don't know nearly enough.

 

[Snow1964]

Facts are still able to bring an organisation into disrepute, of course.

But only if they are doing something unpopular, undesirable or even illegal.

The skill is recognising when something isn't right, accepting it needs changing, and fixing it. If it is in open (and a PR incident) fessing up, and showing your plan to sort it, not trying to pretend it never happened, and implying you don't care if it carries on.

 

[zwk500]

Social media rules are one thing but when a certain Gary Lineker cites freedom of speech he is able to break the BBC's social media rules! Personally, I feel that "freedom of speech" disappeared a long time ago and there are restrictions on what we can say (and rightly so).

There has been debate from almost the emergence of the 'freedom of speech' idea about how 'free' it really is. The concept of 'Civil Society' governing what is an isn't acceptable and who gets to speak and who doesn't has long roots, and the particulars of the power relations are a subject of considerable academic, political and social debate (which I've just sat an exam on for my MA).

Freedom of speech =/= freedom from consequence. Simple as that.

Very much so.

However, this is a tangent, and we should return to the specific case in questions

 

[Wolfie]

I totally agree with your thoughts.

May be some people need to watch this 25 minute video, and may learn a thing or two about preserved railways -

and some of the references in her speech is regards to the ELR although she does not mention the railway by name. Joanne is only standing / speaking up for other women in the preserved railway movement, get equal treatment as well as attempting to improve things too. To be honest, parts of the preserved railway movement generally needs a good look at themselves regardless of sexual orientation, were attitudes and thinking need to change as one thing they need is volunteers which will become harder to recruit as time goes on.

In the meantime, Joanne has been shortlisted for the 'Inspirational Woman of the Year' in the Women in Rail awards - see: https://mobile.twitter.com/JoanneMCrompton/status/1643621639072956422.

As for the ELR, I suspect it is an own goal, rather than the issue go away, just highlights it even more sadly.

I have to say that it does rather smack of the ELR preserving dinosaur attitudes as part of railway heritage. Dare l ask how many ethnic minority people are involved (and yes l do appreciate that may be due to lack of interest on their part)?

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Question - did Joanne's talk published on youtube take place after her "sacking" by ELR ?

No, she was sacked on Tuesday whereas the talk was quite some time ago, in Autumn 2021.

 

[Wolfie]

It's odder than that - a number of people I follow on there have followed Joanne for a while, but hadn't said anything at all until this blew up. Now they've found they were already blocked by the ELR Chairman without having even saying a word! It's all a very sorry state of affairs, and one which will probably take some time to heal from. As Joanne says, it's a conversation that needs to keep happening.

If that is the organisation's attitude then it deserves to get zero money from the public and fail.

 

[zwk500]

But only if they are doing something unpopular, undesirable or even illegal.

Sexual or gender harassment being all 3, of course.

The skill is recognising when something isn't right, accepting it needs changing, and fixing it. If it is in open (and a PR incident) fessing up, and showing your plan to sort it, not trying to pretend it never happened, and implying you don't care if it carries on.

Indeed. If the ELR was really convinced that asking her not to return was the right course of action, they should have had a plan for handling both sides of the fallout.

 

[Wolfie]

There are tools out there that will autoblock anyone who follows a given person, or who replied to or liked or retweeted a given Tweet. He'll just have used one of those.

The third word rather sums the Chair up. This is a PR disaster for his organisation and he's trying to go full ostrich.

To be honest, you only needed the first five words in that post. A complete tool, in the case of this individual.

Yup

Whatever any ELR statement would say, the damage has been done.

'Sacking' a volunteer is always going to be bad optics. Sacking a volunteer who is well respected across the industry, has done more for diversity and inclusion in the time she's been there than most people have done in a lifetime, and virtually immediately after a sexism case was found in her favour is titanic-sinking reputation-destroyingly bad optics.

Management should never have let anything get to the stage of having to let a volunteer go - learn to manage your staff rather than taking the easy way out - and if there was a meaningful reason that parting ways was the only option then doing so without having even the most basic of plans to manage the fallout shows the current senior leadership in the organisation to be sheer amateurs.

I do feel for the hardworking ELR volunteers who are seeing the line's reputation go down the drain as a result.

You said it all and very eruditely. Personally l wouldn't give ELR a bent washer with the current regime in charge.

 

[AlterEgo]

Facts are still able to bring an organisation into disrepute, of course.

No, if it is a fact and related to the company’s misconduct then the company has brought itself into disrepute. This is dismissal for whistleblowing, plain and simple.

 

[SteveM70]

Something that has occurred to me after rereading the news item I posted in #2 of this thread

Tracey Parkinson, general manager at ELR said traditionally women did not work on the footplate.

Yes, that is very probably the case on heritage railways with dirty filthy locos to work on. However, on the big railway there are considerably more women on the footplate with more joining every week. The TOC I work for has ten depots of drivers and only three of those ten have no footplate women at all. Some depots certainly have females in all roles, and one depot is actually fully female in both driver managers, guard managers / catering managers and Team organiser. We also regular have all girl crews of up to four staff including onboarders as well as lady on the front and the back.

So I wonder if Tracey Parkinson is actually trying to draw out what should in reality be an embarrassment into "look at us and how good we are" type event.

Question - did Joanne's talk published on youtube take place after her "sacking" by ELR ?

My reading of that was that Tracey Parkinson is saying women didn’t work on the footplate when the preserved locomotives they operate were in use on the “big railway”

For what it’s worth, my experience of the ELR over the years has been decidedly mixed. It’s the nearest heritage railway to where I live and I took my kids a few times when they were young. I found a general air of coldness about the place, and at Ramsbottom station a couple of staff who were outright hostile. I wrote a letter (it was that long ago!) pointing this out but never got a reply. The only time I felt the overall feeling was one of welcome and friendliness was on the Santa specials

I’ve been once or twice since the kids grew up but still didn’t feel any friendliness about the place, in stark contrast to the KWVR, which is also relatively nearby

 

[185]

Reckon the media may run the story looking at the replies, it's also looking like ELR have failed/refused to comment, so far.

 

[zwk500]

No, if it is a fact and related to the company’s misconduct then the company has brought itself into disrepute. This is dismissal for whistleblowing, plain and simple.

Totally agree that It's the company that has brought this on themselves and it's a revenge dismissal.

 

[GusB]

My reading of that was that Tracey Parkinson is saying women didn’t work on the footplate when the preserved locomotives they operate were in use on the “big railway”

While this is true, the ELR operates in the 21st century and should have policies in place that reflect this.

I had considered visiting at some point this year but sadly this has soured my view of the organisation. Perhaps a boycott is necessary.

 

[eldomtom2]

Freedom of speech =/= freedom from consequence. Simple as that.

Except of course, freedom of speech inherently means freedom from some consequences.

 

[Ianigsy]

About ten years ago, I was President of a club which continues to do good work in the community and found myself faced with a situation where one member had rung another up to harangue her about the way she was doing things, the stress of listening to which brought on an angina attack for the second member’s husband. I’d psychologically prepared myself to ask the first member to resign if necessary (in the end it wasn’t) on the grounds that regardless of the personal animosity, it was also a health and safety issue.

The trouble with managing volunteers is that if the guilty parties are also footplate crew, they may have threatened to walk away and leave the ELR short staffed at the start of the season. There are ways to manage this kind of situation and a lot would depend on how Joanne Crompton felt about continuing on the footplate,at the ELR.

The ELR may also find that owners of visiting locos -particularly main line operators- are reluctant to send their engines to galas if there’s a potential for reputational damage.

 

[yorksrob]

I do hope that the appropriate lessons are learned from this affair, however I categorically will not be boycotting the ELR.

 

[Runningaround]

By reading this thread and experiences of those visiting the ELR, the place sounds as if it's run by those who resent any outsiders who are getting too close too their hobby. I find this attitude present on many HR and if they had a choice would run them as a private full scale trainset with only themselves allowed to play.
If they have any interest in the future then moving away from the stereotype of a rail enthusiast then they need to learn to be more welcoming to women, the LGBT community and minority groups so that they look inclusive and not a narrow minded closed off group.

And by getting rid of her they've now released any obligation she had for keeping quiet.

 

[paul1609]

After reading this I can safely say I’ll have less of a guilty conscience if the ELR is compulsory purchased by Network Rail and reopened as part of the main railway. That would be one way of deposing the current misogynistic management.

I'm not sure anyone would want/ be justified in compulsory purchasing the ELRs assets. I believe the trackbed belongs to the Metropolitan council.

 

[eldomtom2]

By reading this thread and experiences of those visiting the ELR, the place sounds as if it's run by those who resent any outsiders who are getting too close too their hobby. I find this attitude present on many HR and if they had a choice would run them as a private full scale trainset with only themselves allowed to play.
If they have any interest in the future then moving away from the stereotype of a rail enthusiast then they need to learn to be more welcoming to women, the LGBT community and minority groups so that they look inclusive and not a narrow minded closed off group.

And by getting rid of her they've now released any obligation she had for keeping quiet.

I think the fact that the general manager is a woman may introduce some wrinkles into the idea that this is simply a case of misogyny and not other issues as well.

 

[grid56126]

I have been guilty in the past of being a nasty bloke with comments, both racist and misogynistic. Mostly my comments were very indirect, but overheard by those I obviously offended. Some comments were stupidly, naively very nasty. I was never pulled up by anyone and in most cases encouraged and laughed with.

Or was I laughed with, or encouraged by everyone? I somehow doubt it and will never know.

20 years ago I had a realisation of what a horrendously nasty person I had been. Mostly of course as a result of how we all "learn" these behaviours, through peer pressure, but importantly people were too scared to question my attitudes and of course work place managers / public bodies were the same as me so never corrected me.

I have become somewhat of a bore to people around me (those I know I hasten to add). I question bad habits like I had. I get shrugs, dirty looks and sometimes a nervous silence.

To bring this back on topic I am a people watcher. I am a people listener. The shocking conversations that take place pretty much everywhere in the railway world show that as a society this behaviour amongst friends is still tolerable. Groups of staff on the real railway gathered in public places forget people can hear them and this applies on numerous preservation sites. Swearing, misogynistic chat, racism and hateful views are ridiculously easy to overhear. It’s not like I have the mobility to move close to people to deliberately eavesdrop. I have reduced mobility, so simply by plonking myself on a seat to take in a nice rest / view of what’s going on I end up listening to it.

I have followed Joanne for a very long time and interacted in a very minor way on twitter, similar to this post offering her my apologies for being a sexist. Misogynistic idiot.

I am not foolish, I am fully aware we only know one side of this and she may have made an error. Irrespective, the ELR have admitted to her that her complaint stood. A complaint that in the workplace would have had consequences either financially to the employer or an employee for being found to have transgressed. How lucky for the ELR neither apply to them, despite their charitable status. Charity law / governance is a minefield.

 

[yorksrob]

By reading this thread and experiences of those visiting the ELR, the place sounds as if it's run by those who resent any outsiders who are getting too close too their hobby. I find this attitude present on many HR and if they had a choice would run them as a private full scale trainset with only themselves allowed to play.
If they have any interest in the future then moving away from the stereotype of a rail enthusiast then they need to learn to be more welcoming to women, the LGBT community and minority groups so that they look inclusive and not a narrow minded closed off group.

And by getting rid of her they've now released any obligation she had for keeping quiet.

I can't speak for staff/volunteers, however as a paying customer, I've only ever found the railway to be relaxed and welcoming. I can't think of any other preserved railway I'd rather spend a few hours milling around on.

That's not to say that improvements shouldn't be made. Just that your impression doesn't match with my experience.

 

[reddragon]

This sparked up on Twitter recently. Joanne had made a statement of what she says happened.

The ELR blocked many influential rail people in the heritage, publication & main line railway management, plus anyone who commented. I was shocked by how many very well known names have supported her. The biggest is the RAIL editor who said he'd known of what was going on for 2 years and had seen it for real. He had been blocked before he even commented!

Support for Joanne is universal, condemnation of the ELR & boycotting suggestions widespread.

Whatever the facts, this is a PR disaster for the ELR they cannot recover from without drastic changes.

 

[yorksrob]

This sparked up on Twitter recently. Joanne had made a statement of what she says happened.

The ELR blocked many influential rail people in the heritage, publication & main line railway management, plus anyone who commented. I was shocked by how many very well known names have supported her. The biggest is the RAIL editor who said he'd known of what was going on for 2 years and had seen it for real. He had been blocked before he even commented!

Support for Joanne is universal, condemnation of the ELR & boycotting suggestions widespread.

Whatever the facts, this is a PR disaster for the ELR they cannot recover from without drastic changes.

Let them change and have a management clean sweep in that case.

The railway would be a terrible loss.

 

[CeeJ]

This is all looking very bad for the ELR. The blocking by the chairman specifically seems to be getting a lot of traction. Unless this is some form of elaborate lie, his position is untenable and each day this saga continues brings greater risk of wider media attention.

 

[Runningaround]

I can't speak for staff/volunteers, however as a paying customer, I've only ever found the railway to be relaxed and welcoming. I can't think of any other preserved railway I'd rather spend a few hours milling around on.

That's not to say that improvements shouldn't be made. Just that your impression doesn't match with my experience.

This isn't a sector where you can pick and choose who you want to be welcoming too, its a tourist attraction and a charity that needs every penny and help it can attract. I know it pains some who run HR lines but too keep running you need the outsiders to keep going.

And plenty will be scouring social media this weekend in choosing where to go, anything negative will deter visitors.
I suppose for some who work on HR's, they have brought the 60 - 70's attitude of the real railway with them and have a serious dislike of outsiders, and those they need to keep running i.e. the general public.

 

[zwk500]

This is all looking very bad for the ELR. The blocking by the chairman specifically seems to be getting a lot of traction. Unless this is some form of elaborate lie, his position is untenable and each day this saga continues brings greater risk of wider media attention.

There would need to be something a lot more dramatic underneath this to get it beyond the regional news programmes, I think.

 

[Sm5]

Mick Whelan has shown support for her.

 

[Darandio]

Well apparently they have put out some sort of response.....

https://twitter.com/philatrail/status/1644361268864643074

"We concluded two independent investigations as a result of grievances raised by Joanne Crompton and have just received an appeal which means we are limited in what we can share.

"The first was about our processes used for all volunteers goingthrough steam driver training. The investigation highlighted a deficiency in the steam driver training assessment and is subject to
a review. We are now in the process of doing this, however, this was not a case of discrimination against Joanne, but a general problem that needed fixing.

"Our exhaustive independent investigation into Joanne's second grievance was inconclusive.

"We understand that this has been difficult for Joanne - this has also taken an emotional toll on our volunteer community.

"We've asked Joanne to no longer actively volunteer at the railway. We share her sadness that it has come to this but wish her all the best for the future."