East London Line before December 2007

[90sWereBetter]

I only travelled on the East London Line once before the closure and upgrade to London Overground standards, which was in August 2007 between Whitechapel and Canada Water, and it really was an incredibly fascinating backwater, the likes of which we'll probably never see again in London. I was wondering what the general service pattern was on the ELL during its last few years as a London Underground line. Was it something along the lines of 2tph each to New Cross/New Cross Gate (giving a train every 15 minutes on the core section between Whitechapel and Surrey Quays), or something a bit more substantial?

In addition, when and why was Shoreditch downgraded to peak hours only operation? I know the station was doomed due to the upgrade, but surely given the massive uplift the Underground had in the late 1990s/early 2000s it would have benefited from better operational hours in line with the rest of the network, especially after the 1995-98 closure?

 

[Somewhere]

I'm sure it was more frequent than that - I seem to recall double what you state (every 7.5 minutes, with a train every 15 minutes on each branch)

 

[Mcr Warrior]

In addition, when and why was Shoreditch downgraded to peak hours only operation? I know the station was doomed due to the upgrade, but surely given the massive uplift the Underground had in the late 1990s/early 2000s it would have benefited from better operational hours in line with the rest of the network, especially after the 1995-98 closure?

Lack of use? Back in the early 2000's, I occasionally used Shoreditch station (which in its later years was located at the end of a single track dead end branch line) during the morning peak hours, but there weren't too many others doing so as well.

Think the station was also operational on Sundays, when the street markets in the area at places such as Brick Lane and Petticoat Lane were open.

 

[30907]

Lack of use? Back in the early 2000's, I occasionally used Shoreditch station (which in its later years was located at the end of a single track dead end branch line) during the morning peak hours, but there weren't too many others doing so as well.

Think the station was also operational on Sundays, when the street markets in the area at places such as Brick Lane and Petticoat Lane were open.

Memory says it was peak hours/Sundays only for decades. A quick Google search finds an article in the April 1953 Railway Mag which has the service as peak hours only. I have a feeling an all-day service was tried more recently though.

 

[bramling]

I only travelled on the East London Line once before the closure and upgrade to London Overground standards, which was in August 2007 between Whitechapel and Canada Water, and it really was an incredibly fascinating backwater, the likes of which we'll probably never see again in London. I was wondering what the general service pattern was on the ELL during its last few years as a London Underground line. Was it something along the lines of 2tph each to New Cross/New Cross Gate (giving a train every 15 minutes on the core section between Whitechapel and Surrey Quays), or something a bit more substantial?

In addition, when and why was Shoreditch downgraded to peak hours only operation? I know the station was doomed due to the upgrade, but surely given the massive uplift the Underground had in the late 1990s/early 2000s it would have benefited from better operational hours in line with the rest of the network, especially after the 1995-98 closure?

For many years to the end it was every 6 minutes, so 10 tph, with 5 tph to each terminus. This was pretty much right through the day, IIRC including Sundays.

 

[Timmyd]

Used it to commute in the late 90s/early 2000s, was every 15 to each terminus. Infuriatingly always missed connections by seconds at New Cross Gate in the evening peak. The contrast with the overground today is remarkable, but I do fondly remember bouncing along at speed on the A stock between Surrey Docks (as it was) and NXG.

 

[TrenHotel]

For many years to the end it was every 6 minutes, so 10 tph, with 5 tph to each terminus. This was pretty much right through the day, IIRC including Sundays.

Yes, that's my recollection too, because New Cross now has a worse service (4tph) than it did in Underground days. Obviously New Cross Gate has a much better service.

 

[W-on-Sea]

The Sunday morning/early afternoon openings at Shoreditch date back to the early 1990s or thereabouts - possibly when the East London Line started to be promoted as such (and changed colour on the tube map - "We've turned the East London Line orange to aid you"), rather than as the East London Section of the Met Line.

 

[leytongabriel]

It always was a backwater - remember Q stock with clerestory roof cars in the late 60's dating back to the 1920's which seemed to belong to another age.

 

[Roger1973]

The East London Line was the nearest bit of the Underground to what was my part of London, although I didn't use it very often until I started using it once or twice a week in the late 80s, prior to that, I just saw trains (sometimes) when passing through New Cross on the way to central London.

I don't remember seeing 1938 tube stock on the line (ran for some years in the 1970s, but not sure exactly when, so probably before I was taking much notice) - I remember it being two person operated A stock, then D stock (think the driver only conversion happened fairly soon after the D stock arrived) then reverted to A stock (after it had been converted to driver only mode.)

I don't remember it ever being as low as 2 trains per hour on each branch but can't say for certain that it never was that. (I don't remember ever thinking it would be quicker southbound to go to New Cross Gate and walk down the road if I missed a New Cross train, for example.)

I have a 1976 working timetable to hand - this has a 10 minute headway (20 at New Cross / Gate) off peak, evenings and Sundays (required 3 trains in service) and 6 1/2 minute headway (13 at New Cross / Gate) in the weekday peaks (which required 5 trains.) Shoreditch was only open 0704 - 0945 and 1554 to 1842 (that's what the working timetable says) Mon - Fri, although one early morning Saturday train ran empty to and from Shoreditch for reasons which aren't clear. (I have read somewhere else that the Shoreditch Station building included a small LT canteen which was used by Dalston Garage route 47 bus crews to save on travelling time back to the Garage for meal breaks - it's possible this journey was for canteen staff to get there and open up, although would have thought the timetable would have shown it as 'staff' rather than 'empty'.)

I can vaguely remember the Sunday extension to Shoreditch starting - think it was mid / late 80s? And it was only until about 2 pm, when the Sunday markets wound down.

Shadwell also had limited hours - 0615 to 2200 Monday to Saturday (in the 1976 timetable) and I think this was still the case for some time after the station offered an interchange with the DLR - I remember doing that once and being quite fortunate but surprised in catching the last southbound train (from Shadwell) of the day.

At the times I remember it, the off peak service used the northbound platform at Whitechapel to terminate. (The 1976 timetable suggests this was the case then, with a few terminating trains using the southbound platform to allow the next northbound train to continue to Shoreditch.)

I must have moved away from London before it went up to 10 trains per hour. (How many trains did that need to run it? And where did they put them all? I thought the depot was only big enough for 6 trains.)

 

[Jan Mayen]

Was it really upgraded that long ago? I used it two or three times a week to get to (or, more usually, from) Wapping after working in the evening for a theatre company called Punchdrunk that was producing a promenade performance of Faust in a disused storage building near Tobacco Dock.
I also managed to get on a train that went very slowly northbound so we could get a good look at Brunels tunnel.

 

[Springs Branch]

I visited the East London Line (ELL) as part of my first ever jaunt with a One Day Travelcard, when these were introduced in the early 1980s. I wouldn't have blown a point-to-point fare on the trip back then, but this backwater was definitely fair game once a rover ticket became available.

The OP's description "... an incredibly fascinating backwater, the likes of which we'll probably never see again ..." was certainly accurate at that time.

I can't recall the exact frequency on the two branches but do remember an annoyingly long fester at New Cross waiting for the return train. Around 20 minutes would be a fair guess - it would have been either a Saturday or a Sunday and there was nothing much moving on the BR lines either.

Either the ELL train arrived just after the previous had departed then dwelled there, or (more likely) had done a quick turnaround back to Whitechapel, leaving me (and it was pretty much just me) standing on the platform.

A couple of random memories: -

• Was the East London one of the few lines where London Underground published an all-day public timetable for the service (rather than just stating times of first and last trains)? I have a vague memory of some sort of timetable posters at ELL stations - either in proper 'heavy rail' columns and rows format, or "... and at these minutes past each hour".
  
  
• Were the ELL crews 'captive' to the line, or did they interwork with the rest of the Metropolitan Line (which included the Hammersmith & City back then)?
  I remember thinking it must have been a boring life if stuck permanently on that line - especially the open-the-doors-close-the-doors job for guards.
  Waterloo & City or Aldwych shuttles in tube tunnels would have been worse, or course, but as I understand it, drivers just did half a shift on those lines, with 'main line' work for the other half day.
  
  
• I'd read the 1970s horror novel The Rats by James Herbert as a teenager, which included a scene where passengers and the LT station attendant at Shadwell were attacked and killed late one night by a mob of mutant, murderous rats emerging from the tunnel. As a result I was intrigued by our stops at Shadwell, and could understand the author's choice of this shabby, almost deserted station for his story.

 

[miklcct]

Was the East London one of the few lines where London Underground published an all-day public timetable for the service (rather than just stating times of first and last trains)? I have a vague memory of some sort of timetable posters at ELL stations - either in proper 'heavy rail' columns and rows format, or "... and at these minutes past each hour".

Metropolitan line still does nowadays, though only for Amersham / Chesham / Watford branches.

 

[frodshamfella]

I used the East London Line a number of time in the past. I had a friend in Wapping so I used to change at New X to get there. I remember the damp smell and continuous dripping you heard while stood at Wapping.

Other times I'd take the East London Line just out of its curious nature, somewhat detached and forgotten .

I then used the line on occasion to commute. I worked near Bishopsgate, and would change at New Cross for Shoreditch, rather than staying on Southern Region to Cannon Street. You always got a seat on the East London, fond memories.

I do remember Shoreditch Station as being very tucked away, easily missed. Just the one Platform. I also remember it had a Sunday service and M - F peaks, which at the time struck me as odd, and added to the Mystique.

 

[Roger1973]

Either the ELL train arrived just after the previous had departed then dwelled there, or (more likely) had done a quick turnaround back to Whitechapel, leaving me (and it was pretty much just me) standing on the platform.

Think the turn rounds were reasonably quick - the line in to New Cross was single track from somewhere between Canal Junction and the depot, and single platform, so couldn't hang around for too long.

The 1976 working timetable (3 trains in use, every 20 minutes to each of the southern termini) only gives 4 minutes turn round time at New Cross / New Cross Gate, 5 minutes at Whitechapel off peak.

Was the East London one of the few lines where London Underground published an all-day public timetable for the service (rather than just stating times of first and last trains)? I have a vague memory of some sort of timetable posters at ELL stations - either in proper 'heavy rail' columns and rows format, or "... and at these minutes past each hour".

I think the Metropolitan Main line had a 'proper' timetable, and possibly the outer ends of the Central Line.

• Were the ELL crews 'captive' to the line, or did they interwork with the rest of the Metropolitan Line

To the best of my knowledge, yes (in the 80s at least) - although until some point in the 1939 war, trains worked via St Mary's curve on to the Hammersmith and City Line as well as to Shoreditch.

I had forgotten yesterday that I have a 1935 LT timetable booklet which gives a brief first + last trains summary for Underground lines - this shows that ELL trains then only ran to Whitechapel and Shoreditch between about 0630 - 0930 Mon - Sat, 1630 to 2030 Mon - Fri, 1200 to 1500 Saturday, and 0830 to 1340 Sundays. The 'all day' service was to Hammersmith.

Waterloo & City or Aldwych shuttles in tube tunnels would have been worse, or course, but as I understand it, drivers just did half a shift on those lines, with 'main line' work for the other half day.

I understand that in BR days, the Waterloo and City Line had permanent guards, but drivers were in one of the 'links' at Waterloo, so drivers on that link would do a week on the W+C now and then, and could be working main line trains to Bournemouth and so on the next week. I have read somewhere that in London + South Western Railway days, railwaymen would be sent to the W+C line for misdemeanours - this may be apocryphal...

 

[Enthusiast]

The Sunday morning/early afternoon openings at Shoreditch date back to the early 1990s or thereabouts - possibly when the East London Line started to be promoted as such (and changed colour on the tube map - "We've turned the East London Line orange to aid you"), rather than as the East London Section of the Met Line.

It always was a backwater - remember Q stock with clerestory roof cars in the late 60's dating back to the 1920's which seemed to belong to another age.

My earliest encounter with the ELL was in the early 1960s when I was a very junior Gricer. It was still shown on the Underground map as part of the Metropolitan Line and my first journey on it was on a four car "F" stock train. These had elliptical roofs, straight sides and large oval windows at the end of each car, including the driving cab. This link to Google provides a number of shots of "F" stock, including one of a train emerging from the Thames Tunnel into Wapping station and another of a train in Whitechapel station:

f stock london underground - Google Search

Living in Stoke Newington, I would occasionally go to Liverpool Street and then to Whitechapel and use the line to get to New Cross/Gate to see the trains that had left Charing Cross and Cannon Street heading south and south-east. Shoreditch Station was in Pedley Street. This road was severed and the area to the south of it largely demolished when the ELL extension was built onwards to Dalston Junction. I visited that station just a handful of times due to its restricted hours of opening but I have in mind that in the Sixties it was open Sunday mornings to serve Petticoat Lane, Brick Lane and Club Row markets, but I couldn't be sure of that. It was certainly reduced to M-F peaks by the end of the Sixties before the Sunday service was resurrected in the 80s or 90s. The station was in a cutting and originally had two platforms, but only one (the "Up" side) was used to terminate East London Line Underground trains. I believe the down side was electrified to four rails for use in an emergency, though once again, cannot be certain. It was sited just to the east of the junction with the Great Eastern Lines out of Liverpool Street. The occasional freight train was routed down the line to join the Southern Region, usually at New Cross. However these movements were awkward because trains had to almost enter Liverpool Street station and then reverse as the connection was in the Liverpool Street direction only. I believe there was a wagon lift in the adjacent Bishopsgate goods yard which could transfer wagons down to the ELL but I'm not sure whether this was still in use. The goods yard was destroyed by a fire in about 1967. After the goods services ceased (around 1966) the "down" track at Shoreditch was lifted and the junction with the GE lines was severed.

The ELL certainly was a world apart from the rest of the underground network. I think the worst station was Wapping. The platforms were (and still are) extremely narrow and on a slight curve. The damp smell mentioned upthread was quite unpleasant and there is a pump room at the Rotherhithe end of the Thames Tunnel housing pumps which work continuously to keep the tunnel dry. There was a long staircase from the platform to the lift landing situated above the tunnel mouths, where a pair of lattice gated lifts ran up to the street. The lift shaft was wide and open and the tracks below could be seen through the gates. I'm not sure if things are any different since the ELL rebuild as although I have occasionally passed through Wapping since its transfer to the Overground, I have not alighted.

I recall 1938 tube stock being used on the line in the 70s and the "A60/62" Metropolitan Main Line stock being used from the late 1970s. I believe they remained until the line's closure and transfer to the Overground.

An item of trivia: Whitechapel station is the only station (and probably the only place) where the Overground runs beneath the Underground.

 

[bicbasher]

I seem to recall the ELL was 5tph to New Cross and 4tph to New Cross Gate off-peak in the noughties.

As I'm local enough to have used the old LU line from childhood, I remember when it had D stock on it in the late 80s before the A60/62 stock returned.

 

[Taunton]

I think the worst station was Wapping. The platforms were (and still are) extremely narrow and on a slight curve. The damp smell mentioned upthread was quite unpleasant and there is a pump room at the Rotherhithe end of the Thames Tunnel housing pumps which work continuously to keep the tunnel dry. There was a long staircase from the platform to the lift landing situated above the tunnel mouths, where a pair of lattice gated lifts ran up to the street. The lift shaft was wide and open and the tracks below could be seen through the gates. I'm not sure if things are any different since the ELL rebuild as although I have occasionally passed through Wapping since its transfer to the Overground, I have not alighted.

I'm possibly the one here living closest to this. Wapping is still a fascinating inner London "village" area, which we regularly go to, somewhat cut off although walking distance to Tower Bridge. The station is a real timewarp, still much as pictured above, with the extraordinarily steep, if not precipitous, stairs down to the extremely narrow platforms. It has had various alterations over time, and is notably different now to its onetime twin Rotherhithe across the river - Wapping still has lifts, whereas Rotherhithe has escalators which were managed to be shoehorned in a Z-arrangement into the old lift shaft. No apparent reason why the two approaches differed.

Next up the line, Shadwell, also atmospheric, is a useful interchange point with the DLR, but is a considerable mountaineering exercise between deep-down East London and high-up DLR, which the lifts only partially cover, as well as needing to cross the streets outside.

I suppose an interesting sojourn would be to do them all one afternoon, actually coming up to the surface at each one. Rotherhithe has its Brunel Museum next door (check opening times, they are a bit limited) which describes much of the construction of it all.

 

[Springs Branch]

I suppose an interesting sojourn would be to do them all one afternoon, actually coming up to the surface at each one. . . .

A ‘classic’ East London Line pub crawl! There’s an idea.

 

[Cricketer8for9]

I think usage increased from 1999 onwards when Canada Water opened. The Jubilee Line interchange became useful for Canary Wharf and the West End.

 

[Taunton]

A ‘classic’ East London Line pub crawl! There’s an idea.

Just be careful on those steps at Wapping! Do this one first. There's a splendid range of old pubs in the vicinity, so you might get no further.

 

[90sWereBetter]

When Canada Water was first planned, was it considered as a replacement for Rotherhithe station or simply an additional stop to take advantage of the Jubilee Line Extension?

I know there was concern Rotherhithe and Wapping might have had to close permanently when the line transferred to London Overground, before Selective Door Operation was approved for these locations

 

[Magdalia]

An item of trivia: Whitechapel station is the only station (and probably the only place) where the Overground runs beneath the Underground.

The North London Line passes underneath the Jubilee line near West Hampstead.

 

[frodshamfella]

Just be careful on those steps at Wapping! Do this one first. There's a splendid range of old pubs in the vicinity, so you might get no further.

I remember walking out of Wapping Station in the 80s, it had a very forgotten feel. The number 67 bus terminated there too. There is a very atmospheric night scene photo of that bus in a bus book I once had, with a pram in the street and a street lamp.

 

[Springs Branch]

An item of trivia: Whitechapel station is the only station (and probably the only place) where the Overground runs beneath the Underground.

Plus the Overground’s Watford DC trains run beneath the Metropolitan Line in the vicinity of Kenton / Northwick Park. Admittedly the Overground does share its tracks with the Bakerloo Line at this crossing.

 

[Taunton]

I remember walking out of Wapping Station in the 80s, it had a very forgotten feel. The number 67 bus terminated there too. There is a very atmospheric night scene photo of that bus in a bus book I once had, with a pram in the street and a street lamp.

Indeed, all credit to the drivers of the big double deckers in that era - nowadays there are a couple of minibus routes, whose drivers have difficulty enough - and the street pattern has never changed. In fact, the long distance from any major London bus route is part of the continuing substantial usage of Wapping station, which is a focal point in the vicinity. There have long been useful connecting points at adjacent stations, Canada Water to the Jubilee, Shadwell to the DLR, and Whitechapel to the District, but the recent big improvement has been Whitechapel onto the Elizabeth Line. Notably three of these four have only come along since the Docklands regeneration started in the late 1980s.

 

[bicbasher]

I think usage increased from 1999 onwards when Canada Water opened. The Jubilee Line interchange became useful for Canary Wharf and the West End.

I certainly used it more once the JLE opened because of the cheaper TfL only fares from New Cross Gate. If I was in Lewisham and wanted to go into the West End, instead of using Southeastern to Charing Cross, I'd bus it up to New Cross Gate and then use the ELL/JLE.

Now I use the ELL all the time because I live on the extension, plus it also has connections to the Elizabeth line.

 

[frodshamfella]

Indeed, all credit to the drivers of the big double deckers in that era - nowadays there are a couple of minibus routes, whose drivers have difficulty enough - and the street pattern has never changed. In fact, the long distance from any major London bus route is part of the continuing substantial usage of Wapping station, which is a focal point in the vicinity. There have long been useful connecting points at adjacent stations, Canada Water to the Jubilee, Shadwell to the DLR, and Whitechapel to the District, but the recent big improvement has been Whitechapel onto the Elizabeth Line. Notably three of these four have only come along since the Docklands regeneration started in the late 1980s.

This is the photo I had in the bus book as a lad...just found it. The 67 outside Wapping tube. Didn't look the safest place to walk, and the left pram, gets me. Any ideas when apx ?

 

[Taunton]

This is the photo I had in the bus book as a lad...just found it. The 67 outside Wapping tube. Didn't look the safest place to walk, and the left pram, gets me. Any ideas when apx ?


View attachment 146244

It's here. Station on the left.

Google Maps

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www.google.co.uk

This page tells us that type of bus did the 67 to Wapping from 1967 to 1969, which fits with the Triumph Herald car in the background.

London Bus Route 67

I wouldn't have had the slightest qualms about walking round there at midnight, then or now. Then, they were the decent old dockers who if you fell over on the ice would be the first to help you back up again. Now, the apartments in those converted warehouses go for upwards of £1m each. I do hope their inhabitants have the same approach to their fellows.

I wonder if the left pram was because of the treacherous steps down to the platforms. It would be directly in sight of the booking office window. Because of the lifts the station would still have to be staffed, even with lesser usage and staff shortages of those times elsewhere. The pram would still be there when the owners returned home.

 

[Dr_Paul]

I have read somewhere that in London + South Western Railway days, railwaymen would be sent to the W+C line for misdemeanours - this may be apocryphal...

My dad told me that too, although as he firmly believed that the Great Central was built to the Continental loading gauge, he may have got it wrong.