East Midlands Railway overcrowding issues

[Watershed]

Oh, for goodness' sakes. The answer to overcrowding isn't to lie to passengers by telling them that reservations are compulsory (when in fact they're not). It's to increase capacity (is first class being declassified and are measures in place to ensure every single service is 10 coaches?), provide information advising people that trains will be busy and what the alternatives are, and to give them incentives to go other ways. For example, highlight the fact that the fare from Sheffield/Chesterfield/Derby to London via Tamworth is much cheaper, and add a cheaper similar fare (effectively via Nuneaton) from Leicester.

 

[43066]

EMR have marked their Intercity services Reservations Compulsory on the upcoming weekend 22/23rd.

Where does it say this? The website doesn’t appear to indicate mandatory reservations.

The answer to overcrowding isn't to lie to passengers by telling them that reservations are compulsory (when in fact they're not). It's to increase capacity (is first class being declassified and are measures in place to ensure every single service is 10 coaches?), provide information advising people that trains will be busy and what the alternatives are, and to give them incentives to go other ways. For example, highlight the fact that the fare from Sheffield/Chesterfield/Derby to London via Tamworth is much cheaper, and add a cheaper similar fare (effectively via Nuneaton) from Leicester.

So your suggestion is that EMR magic rolling stock and crews out of thin air?

In the real world we all know that, if passenger numbers exceed capacity, people will be turned away, so strong messaging to avoid this in advance is sensible and prudent. I’ve also yet to see any evidence of EMR lying to passengers. Please can you cite some?

 

[BJames]

Where does it say this? The website doesn’t appear to indicate mandatory reservations.

I just had a look through RTT (I appreciate this isn't an authorative source and probably should have prefaced my message with 'it looks like') - e.g. the 0912 which some of my friends wanted - https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:G15165/2023-04-22/detailed - not allowing more purchases if you look on Trainline. Normally if the advances are sold out the walk up fare is displayed but this time it just displays as sold out and when you click through to display all fare types, the walk up fares are not shown. It does not ever normally have these services marked as reservation compulsory in RTT - this doesn't mean they won't let you on, but it's stopping people buying tickets.

Trainsplit does allow booking for the 0912 but it only offers this combination of tickets:


Trainline despite its ability to split tickets won't split advance with super-off peak and anytime I assume so passengers not knowing about trainsplit would assume they can't use this train at all. That's what happened with my group until I introduced them to trainsplit.

 

[43066]

Normally if the advances are sold out the walk up fare is displayed but this time it just displays as sold out and when you click through to display all fare types, the walk up fares are not shown. It does not ever normally have these services marked as reservation compulsory in RTT - this doesn't mean they won't let you on, but it's stopping people buying tickets.

That service does appear to be indicating sold out on the EMR site. There are tickets available for the 0938 by the looks of things, so they might consider that?

Presumably it’s an attempt to limit demand, and certainly isn’t “lying to passengers” at suggested above (not by you)! It’s better than selling tickets they can’t otherwise honour.

 

[Class 170101]

It looks like its an hourly service from each of Sheffield, Nottingham and Corby to St Pancras for most of the day. Thameslink services are using the main station upstairs rather than going through the core towards Blackfriars.

 

[Watershed]

So your suggestion is that EMR magic rolling stock and crews out of thin air?

Where have I said that? In an ideal world of course they'd run more services, but we all know that's not realistic. My suggestions centred around making the most of the trains that do run. Exactly the sort of stuff I would be doing if I were in charge of that weekend.

In the real world we all know that, if passenger numbers exceed capacity, people will be turned away, so strong messaging to avoid this in advance is sensible and prudent.

And you'll note I don't disagree with that. It's sad that it comes to this, but very occasionally the industry does need to give out messaging in this way. But that's different to preventing them from buying a ticket and giving them false information.

I’ve also yet to see any evidence of EMR lying to passengers. Please can you cite some?

They've marked trains as reservations compulsory, when they're not. The result is that on trains where reservations have been closed or have all gone, they're falsely shown as "sold out" or "unavailable" when they are nothing of the sort. As with any busy train - if you can fit on, you can take it.

 

[43066]

Where have I said that? In an ideal world of course they'd run more services, but we all know that's not realistic. My suggestions centred around making the most of the trains that do run. Exactly the sort of stuff I would be doing if I were in charge of that weekend.

And I’m sure the relevant team at EMR have done what they can within the constraints that they’re working in. You seem very quick to assume otherwise.

And you'll note I don't disagree with that. It's sad that it comes to this, but very occasionally the industry does need to give out messaging in this way. But that's different to preventing them from buying a ticket and giving them false information.

And this is one of those occasions. I don’t see that either has happened? Nobody is prevented from buying an anytime ticket and arguing the toss, but they’re being made aware that they’re highly unlikely to get onto those trains that are sold out (and if they turn up and get denied travel, they can hardly complain). It strikes me as sensible real-world demand management, not “lying”, as you seem to believe.

They've marked trains as reservations compulsory, when they're not. The result is that on trains where reservations have been closed or have all gone, they're falsely shown as "sold out" or "unavailable" when they are nothing of the sort. As with any busy train - if you can fit on, you can take it.

Have they? The website simply states “sold out”. This seems quite sensible, encouraging people to find other ways to travel. We all know that if hoards of people turn up and can’t be carried (causing a risk to both staff and passengers), you’d be straight on here decrying how dreadful the railway industry is, arguing that EMR need to conjure up hundreds of taxis etc.

 

[gazzaa2]

EMR have marked their Intercity services Reservations Compulsory on the upcoming weekend 22/23rd. It is immeasurably annoying as I have some friends wanting to use these services and they think they are sold out. They didn't know they can buy a ticket on the day, or a flexible online, and find an unreserved seat, or stand if there are none. The Trainline app (which most of them use - I have advised of the existence of Trainsplit and some are moving to this, but old habits die hard...) does not make this remotely clear, it looks as if they cannot use these train services at all, which is fully understandable - in rational logic, sold out = sold out!

I am assuming they are using this flag to try and reduce the number of people travelling?

They've said on their website it's one train an hour to and from St Pancras this weekend - if these run as 5 cars that would be highly disappointing and completely unsatisfactory, considering their own website states they are expecting services to be incredibly busy.

It's Saturday - their services are always going to be very busy. Particularly now heading into summer and the May bank holidays. The problem is inadequate rolling stock and capacity.

If it's Sheffield team at Wembley then they're probably trying to avoid the chaos of Nottingham Forest at Wembley last year and the crowding issues there at Nottingham and Kings Cross.

 

[Snow1964]

Trainsplit does allow booking for the 0912 but it only offers this combination of tickets:
View attachment 133087

I didn't know it would offer 1st class for middle leg of a journey, and exclude the 16-25 railcard, more clever than I thought.

 

[Watershed]

I didn't know it would offer 1st class for middle leg of a journey, and exclude the 16-25 railcard, more clever than I thought.

A 16-25 Railcard doesn't offer any discount on first class walk-up fares - I don't think that other retailers would struggle with that in principle. But yes, this just goes to show the impact on passengers - they're overcharged for a first class ticket for a train that would surely have to be declassified in practice.

 

[43066]

they're overcharged for a first class ticket for a train that would surely have to be declassified in practice.

You mean they’re being charged the going rate for first class, if they choose to book it, which they will be able to get a refund for if it is declassified!

 

[Watershed]

You mean they’re being charged the going rate for first class, if they choose to book it, which they will be able to get a refund for if it is declassified!

Passengers are falsely told that the only available ticket is a first class ticket. That is fundamentally misleading.

If capacity is at such a premium that EMR feel like it's warranted to mark their trains as reservations compulsory, why are they even pretending that first class will be available? Surely it must be declassified. And so again, that's misleading passengers in terms of the travel experience they can expect, and inconveniencing them because they will have to spend time and effort to get their partial refund.

 

[tsyxa]

Has there been any noise about decreasing the number of gaps in the Regional timetable post-May? I haven’t really heard anything about potential changes yet.

 

[Hairy Bear]

As a rule 1 coach will be kept purely First, remainder will be declassified.

 

[Failed Unit]

Has there been any noise about decreasing the number of gaps in the Regional timetable post-May? I haven’t really heard anything about potential changes yet.

Some are back - Lincoln to Leicester is hourly again.

 

[DDB]

Some are back - Lincoln to Leicester is hourly again.

Only other changes (the posters are up) are the Matlocks will all go through to Nottingham all week and interestingly they have reintroduced the Nottingham to Mansfield services (so going to 2 an hour) but only on Saturday as that is apparently where the demand was.
The Crewe Newark is still missing a diagram I don't remember what else is still missing.

 

[tsyxa]

Some are back - Lincoln to Leicester is hourly again.

Lincoln - Leicester is missing two diagrams in the afternoon

Lincoln - Leicester is missing two diagrams in the afternoon

Nevermind.. misunderstood that

Some are back - Lincoln to Leicester is hourly again.

Do you have any links to announced changes?

 

[Failed Unit]

Lincoln - Leicester is missing two diagrams in the afternoon


Nevermind.. misunderstood that


Do you have any links to announced changes?

No diagrams. It is on real train times. What is interesting is Lincoln - Peterborough still has its gaps (the diagram inter works with it) so the unit will be sat at Lincoln for long periods.

 

[DDB]

Here is a photo of the EMR changes poster which for screen readers just shows everything mentioned in the last few posts has been officially announced.

 

[TheBigD]

It says they are going to introduce a reservation system to manage capacity on the 2 extra Derby to Skegness and return services, more info to come.

 

[tsyxa]

It says they are going to introduce a reservation system to manage capacity on the 2 extra Derby to Skegness and return services, more info to come.

How would this go about happening if the 170s don’t have reservation systems and the fleet is so inconsistent I’m not sure that all of them have paper holders either?

 

[BJames]

Evidently I have missed this so apologies but just looking at some of the things being withdrawn, what was the reason for the 0330 and 0342 Nottingham - East Mid Parkway buses operating in the first place? Nottingham is well served by Skylink - are these replacing trains that used to run? And why just 12 minutes apart and none others throughout the night?

That service does appear to be indicating sold out on the EMR site. There are tickets available for the 0938 by the looks of things, so they might consider that?

Presumably it’s an attempt to limit demand, and certainly isn’t “lying to passengers” at suggested above (not by you)! It’s better than selling tickets they can’t otherwise honour.

Thanks - I think they've made alternative plans so I'm glad that I was able to give them information on the reasons behind the crowding. I shall be giving STP a wide berth this weekend...

As a rule 1 coach will be kept purely First, remainder will be declassified.

Interesting. I hope this is particularly applied to 7 cars which cannot be strengthened... it won't alleviate entirely but it would certainly help.

I didn't know it would offer 1st class for middle leg of a journey, and exclude the 16-25 railcard, more clever than I thought.

This is also the first time I've ever seen this - whilst clever to an extent, it's a bit of a ridiculous scenario - who's going to be moving seats three times on a journey between Nottingham and London (and especially standard to first to standard) - if it's going to be as busy as mooted this is hardly going to be possible in the first place!

Passengers are falsely told that the only available ticket is a first class ticket. That is fundamentally misleading.

If capacity is at such a premium that EMR feel like it's warranted to mark their trains as reservations compulsory, why are they even pretending that first class will be available? Surely it must be declassified. And so again, that's misleading passengers in terms of the travel experience they can expect, and inconveniencing them because they will have to spend time and effort to get their partial refund.

It will be interesting to observe whether many declassifications happen, and indeed whether all services are strengthened as much as possible, given the advance notice to staff to avoid travel means they are acutely aware of the crowds on this occasion. Now here's to hoping everything goes ok on ECML & WCML on 22/23rd...!

 

[liamf656]

How would this go about happening if the 170s don’t have reservation systems and the fleet is so inconsistent I’m not sure that all of them have paper holders either?

Are they confirmed to be 170s? I would assume they’ll be 158s

 

[tsyxa]

Are they confirmed to be 170s? I would assume they’ll be 158s

I heard somewhere on rail forums that Skegness diagrams would be double 170s or three car 170s, but they could be 158s

 

[TheBigD]

I heard somewhere on rail forums that Skegness diagrams would be double 170s or three car 170s, but they could be 158s

It was posted by another forum member that the normal summer Saturday Skegness services would be 3 car 170s with the 2 extra Derby services each formed of 2 x 158.

 

[JonathanH]

How would this go about happening if the 170s don’t have reservation systems and the fleet is so inconsistent I’m not sure that all of them have paper holders either?

'Reservations' can just be a counted place on the train. No need to have actual reservations.

 

[43066]

Passengers are falsely told that the only available ticket is a first class ticket. That is fundamentally misleading.

Where are they being told this, and by whom? The EMR website and NRE does not make a specific mention of trains being reservation only, nor of only first class tickets being available. Various tickets are available, including advances in specific trains, off peak and anytime return tickets that are valid for a whole month.

Some trains are marked as “sold out” presumably meaning the allocation of advance tickets for those trains has been sold. Some of the sold out itineraries include legs with other operators.

If capacity is at such a premium that EMR feel like it's warranted to mark their trains as reservations compulsory, why are they even pretending that first class will be available? Surely it must be declassified.

Not necessarily. I’ve seen some extremely busy trains where first class isn’t declassified and it’s a decision taken on the day on a per train basis. If EMR announced that they were declassifying first class “just in case” you would no doubt be the first to complain about that.

And so again, that's misleading passengers in terms of the travel experience they can expect, and inconveniencing them because they will have to spend time and effort to get their partial refund.

On the contrary, they’re trying to improve everyones’ travel experience by being honest and managing demand on days they know services will be crush loaded. If passengers are stranded you will complain about as you have in the past, yet you seem to disagree with TOCs taking proactive steps to avoid this, so they’re damned either way!

Equally if someone turns up with an anytime ticket expecting to travel on a train marked as sold out, on a weekend when severe overcrowding is expected, they’re pretty foolish if they expect a normal experience. That is sensible messaging. I’m still none the wiser as to why you think passengers are being lied to, which appears to be a completely baseless accusation.

It’s easy to criticise from the sidelines. Perhaps you should go and try working some truly crush loaded trains. If you did you might begin to understand why this kind of thing is actually quite a good idea…

 

[Failed Unit]

I must admit, I am not sure what all the fuss is about with respect to the weekend engineering works.

If you look at a standard booking engine, there seems to be lots of options for Sheffield via Doncaster and Nottingham via Doncaster that take slightly longer then the diverted MML route. LNER are still offering the "super-off peak" fares. I appreciate not everyone will know about split ticking but doing that is offering significant savings.

What we don't know is if Northern / EMR will be strengthening trains between Nottingham and Grantham and Doncaster and Sheffield. That could be a challenge.

We can of course hope that EMR are using the maximum capacity round the diversion, but when the ECML diverts via Lincoln we see the same thing, restrictions on tickets. I have on occasion got 1st class cheaper then standand (and it wasn't declassified). The only thing that I do find a pity that isn't done is that EMR run a Grantham - Sheffield 222 operated shuttle to connect with LNER services. I suspect stock / route knowledge is the issue here. But I can see the challenge making all services between Nottingham and Grantham 4 cars. The Norwich - Liverpool would have the extra 2 cards for a significant part of its journey. (As would the Skegness trains)

But the alternative is there for football fans of via Doncaster.

 

[LowLevel]

I must admit, I am not sure what all the fuss is about with respect to the weekend engineering works.

If you look at a standard booking engine, there seems to be lots of options for Sheffield via Doncaster and Nottingham via Doncaster that take slightly longer then the diverted MML route. LNER are still offering the "super-off peak" fares. I appreciate not everyone will know about split ticking but doing that is offering significant savings.

What we don't know is if Northern / EMR will be strengthening trains between Nottingham and Grantham and Doncaster and Sheffield. That could be a challenge.

We can of course hope that EMR are using the maximum capacity round the diversion, but when the ECML diverts via Lincoln we see the same thing, restrictions on tickets. I have on occasion got 1st class cheaper then standand (and it wasn't declassified). The only thing that I do find a pity that isn't done is that EMR run a Grantham - Sheffield 222 operated shuttle to connect with LNER services. I suspect stock / route knowledge is the issue here. But I can see the challenge making all services between Nottingham and Grantham 4 cars. The Norwich - Liverpool would have the extra 2 cards for a significant part of its journey. (As would the Skegness trains)

But the alternative is there for football fans of via Doncaster.

A number of years ago EMT ran St Pancras to Nottingham HSTs through to Grantham on ECML engineering weekends using the local crews trained on them for Skegness services, but there's never been anything since.

I'd assume the likely answer will be there will be no strengthening. Not least because most of EMRs 3 car 170s are currently out of traffic either having acceptance exams or coupler changes so the regional fleet is a bit tight for a week or two.

 

[Rail Ranger]

Where trains are shown as "Sold Out" on websites it is normally possible to buy a walk-up ticket from ticket offices.