East Midlands Trains, their C158s are excellent, but their Meridians absolute c**p ?

[Pumbaa]

Please enlighten me. I tend to find loadings on east coast higher. In fact I have never seen a pendo half full. Super voyager maybe.

Both services suffer from chronic overcrowding. Standard class now not an issue to Brum and Manchester off-peak, but standing room only during Peaks, especially EBW.

Standard class to Liverpool and Glasgow can be ridiculous even during the middle of the day. With only 1tph still, they get crush-loaded easily. Carlisle - Warrington, used as a commuter corridor doesn't help things.

I travel frequently on EC as well, Newcastle - York and Edinburgh - Doncaster. My conclusion is that loadings per train are higher on EC, except FC which can be heavily loaded on Virgin, but aided by VHF, overall number of passengers per hour is higher on the West Coast than the east.

 

[Geezertronic]

Both services suffer from chronic overcrowding. Standard class now not an issue to Brum and Manchester off-peak, but standing room only during Peaks, especially EBW

I can vouch for EBW's being busy during the peak, seems to be more busy than normal over the last month or three for some reason. Even the 0741 starting at BHI is packed after Coventry

 

[HITMAN]

Is it East Coast you're referring to there?

Certainly Northern, Merseyrail, TPE and XC aren't struggling to get passengers with the exception of parliamentary trains in Northern's case.

I find Northern do on many of their more rural services in the off peaks, its a compromise really because most see really heavy peak usage but not that much off peak.

 

[yorksrob]

Remember, up until very recently the Mk3 was regarded as ultra safe, now all of a sudden it's this awful deathtrap that will disintegrate in even the most minor accidents. Remember that until Clapham nobody had second thoughts about the Mk1's safety, in fact they were a big improvement on what went before. Mk3s have survived high speed derailments like that at Grayrigg. Ever heard of Colwich, two trains colliding with a closing speed of around 100mph and only one person killed (the driver). The trains were formed of Mk1, Mk2 and Mk3 coaches.

Absolutely true, If we take that logic to it's conclusion, we might end up making the next generation of trains even safer by having even smaller windows - in which case people may decide to travel by road, which might by this time be a more pleasant travelling environment, but which would still be considerably more dangerous than the railway. Or they might take the plane, which I admit is regarded as one of the safest forms of transport - but then again, exactly how crash worthy is the average commercial airliner these days?

 

[Justin Smith]

Because a 390 is a damn sight safer than a 370! Put the two together in a high-speed crash, and you can guarantee which ones going to come out in one piece. And it isn't the APT.

I don't have the window specs to hand, but they look a little higher than 390. That'll probably be because the continental loading gauge is bigger, as I've said and others have said countless times before on this thread.

If you want bigger windows on the Pendos, kindly fork out the dosh to rebuild the WCML and then order continental gauge Pendolinos to boot.

Right, I think we're getting to the crux of the matter here.
If I've got this right, Virgin and/or the designers of the Pendolinos, are saying that the miniscule windows on the Pendolino are a safety feature (remember they can't be strictly neccessary for the operation of the train because the APT had reasonable size windows).
So if they're a "safety feature" I assume that some research was done into the extra safety they gave.
So my questions are these :
1 How many extra deaths per year (on average) would be caused if the Pendolinos had reasonable sized windows ?
2 How many additional deaths per year (on average) would be saved of the windows on the Pendolino were even smaller ?
3 How many deaths per year (on average) would be saved if all passengers were required to wear 3 point safety belts ?

NOTE I am NOT advocating the use of seat belts on trains, I am simply asking this question to get some balance into this whole debate......

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I love how people always use the "Pendolinos are so safe" arguments. They have been in one accident, and in general terms it wasn't that bad. The ATP was never in a single crash, so how can we know how it would perform? Remember, up until very recently the Mk3 was regarded as ultra safe, now all of a sudden it's this awful deathtrap that will disintegrate in even the most minor accidents. Remember that until Clapham nobody had second thoughts about the Mk1's safety, in fact they were a big improvement on what went before. Mk3s have survived high speed derailments like that at Grayrigg. Ever heard of Colwich, two trains colliding with a closing speed of around 100mph and only one person killed (the driver). The trains were formed of Mk1, Mk2 and Mk3 coaches.

To be honest, a bigger factor in the survivability of Greyrigg compared to other similar accidents was probably not the structural strength of the train, but the interior design, reducing injuries from people flying around in the derail carriages. The small windows might have played a roll too, reducing the chance of ejection, but I'd much rarther have big windows and take the risk given the highly unlikely chance of being in an accident where I might get ejected from the train. Trains are very safe. If you commuted to work every day on Mk1 EMUs you were more likely to be killed crossing the road outside the station than on the train. Don't worry about it and just relax and enjoy the ride, whatever type of train it is. The chances are not a single member of this site will ever be involved in any kind of rail accident, let alone a serious one.

This man talks absolute sense, somebody give him a medal.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Because I can always book well in advance I always travel 1st (at £17 I don't understand why more don't!) and I find the interior fine and the seats much more suited to me than those in the MK.3.

That's cheating, get back in claustrophobic second class with the rest of us.

Actually when I can prebook a trip I usually do go first class, but for most of my rail travel I can't do that and the cost of First class turn up and go rail tickets is even more horrendous than it is for second class.......

 

[tbtc]

Right, I think we're getting to the crux of the matter here.
If I've got this right, Virgin and/or the designers of the Pendolinos, are saying that the miniscule windows on the Pendolino are a safety feature (remember they can't be strictly neccessary for the operation of the train because the APT had reasonable size windows)

Who said that the ATP would qualify as "safe" today?

The original point made at the start of this thread seems to have been lost, so I apologise for dragging the topic back to it, but I'd much rather travel on an EMT 222 than an EMT 158 (or any other EMT Sprinter) or any 220/221. The 222s feel like a grown up unit, having learnt from the mistakes of the Voyagers

 

[90019]

I love how people always use the "Pendolinos are so safe" arguments. They have been in one accident, and in general terms it wasn't that bad. The ATP was never in a single crash, so how can we know how it would perform? Remember, up until very recently the Mk3 was regarded as ultra safe, now all of a sudden it's this awful deathtrap that will disintegrate in even the most minor accidents. Remember that until Clapham nobody had second thoughts about the Mk1's safety, in fact they were a big improvement on what went before. Mk3s have survived high speed derailments like that at Grayrigg. Ever heard of Colwich, two trains colliding with a closing speed of around 100mph and only one person killed (the driver). The trains were formed of Mk1, Mk2 and Mk3 coaches.

By the same token, why aren't we all still driving cars with no airbags, no ABS, no TCS, etc.?
They were considered completely safe without them until 15 years ago or so, yet they're now standard features on most cars, along with so many other things.
Saftey standards change and improve, it's what happens with all forms of transport, and trains are no exception.

 

[yorksrob]

By the same token, why aren't we all still driving cars with no airbags, no ABS, no TCS, etc.?
They were considered completely safe without them until 15 years ago or so, yet they're now standard features on most cars, along with so many other things.
Saftey standards change and improve, it's what happens with all forms of transport, and trains are no exception.

I suppose the point may be that there is inevitably a balance to be struck between comfort and safety - and since trains are already much safer than road transport for example, they should theoretically have more leeway not to have to compromise the quality of passengers' travelling environment by for example having large numbers of people without a window view.

Back to the original post, I quite like the 222's, they seem a fine passenger environment to me. Whether I prefer them to a 158 - I think the 158 is probably one of the best modern trains about and I honestly couldn't imagine myself being unduly miffed about having a 222 substituted for a rake of 158's (unless I was in first class) except perhaps for not having a buffet car available.

 

[MCR247]

These windows look familiar, I wonder where from? http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/77/CIS_VE_SL.jpg

Justin, those windows look about the same size as 390 windows?

 

[HITMAN]

Right, I think we're getting to the crux of the matter here.
If I've got this right, Virgin and/or the designers of the Pendolinos, are saying that the miniscule windows on the Pendolino are a safety feature (remember they can't be strictly neccessary for the operation of the train because the APT had reasonable size windows).
So if they're a "safety feature" I assume that some research was done into the extra safety they gave.
So my questions are these :
1 How many extra deaths per year (on average) would be caused if the Pendolinos had reasonable sized windows ?
2 How many additional deaths per year (on average) would be saved of the windows on the Pendolino were even smaller ?
3 How many deaths per year (on average) would be saved if all passengers were required to wear 3 point safety belts ?

NOTE I am NOT advocating the use of seat belts on trains, I am simply asking this question to get some balance into this whole debate......

Actually when I can prebook a trip I usually do go first class, but for most of my rail travel I can't do that and the cost of First class turn up and go rail tickets is even more horrendous than it is for second class.......

Your making it out like some kind of cattle cart where you have to breathe in so as to be able to fit. I really do think most travelers manage to survive for 2 or so hours without the throne of xerxes to sit on and room to play tennis on the fold down table. The window allignement is annoying in places yes, but its not a disaster and I'm sure most people would survive it.
At the end of the day its the same with cars, its thanks to innovation that a minor accident doesn't lead to something like this http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/jalopnik/2009/01/Vintage-Wreck.jpg

My overally arguement I think is supported though, that more people using Pendo's has taken cars of the road which has saved lives.

 

[Pumbaa]

Right, I think we're getting to the crux of the matter here.
If I've got this right, Virgin and/or the designers of the Pendolinos, are saying that the miniscule windows on the Pendolino are a safety feature (remember they can't be strictly neccessary for the operation of the train because the APT had reasonable size windows).
So if they're a "safety feature" I assume that some research was done into the extra safety they gave.
So my questions are these :
1 How many extra deaths per year (on average) would be caused if the Pendolinos had reasonable sized windows ?
2 How many additional deaths per year (on average) would be saved of the windows on the Pendolino were even smaller ?
3 How many deaths per year (on average) would be saved if all passengers were required to wear 3 point safety belts ?

You cannot quantify these things - they are considerations given the worst possible set of circumstances.

It's as much a safety feature is it is key to the structural integrity of the carriage. Standards are a lot stricter now - you cannot justify a 1970s designed car with 1970s safety standards borne in mind during design, just as you can't a train. The aluminium bodies had a narrower body profile than our current 390s, as well as being a few cm shorter. The 390s have more rounded body profiles, it thus requires stronger and more substantial bodyside support than the APT. Even it didn't, I bet you'd be moaning about how narrow they seem.

Irritatingly, I cannot find the pictures of the stripped out Pendos, but from the bodyshell alone you can see the key supports within the bodyshell, and above the windows that make bigger windows impossible.

In conclusion, the smaller windows are the direct result of enhanced bodyshells offering maximum support and integrity during worst possible situations (as dictated by safety standards) coupled with the necessity to make the windows the maximum size before compression stress shatters them during times of shear stress acting on the body of the train (such as in a high-speed crash).

 

[Failed Unit]

Your making it out like some kind of cattle cart where you have to breathe in so as to be able to fit. I really do think most travelers manage to survive for 2 or so hours without the throne of xerxes to sit on and room to play tennis on the fold down table. The window allignement is annoying in places yes, but its not a disaster and I'm sure most people would survive it.
At the end of the day its the same with cars, its thanks to innovation that a minor accident doesn't lead to something like this http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/jalopnik/2009/01/Vintage-Wreck.jpg

My overally arguement I think is supported though, that more people using Pendo's has taken cars of the road which has saved lives.

Not the pendo specifically but rail in general. All lines have seen growth. To most passengers it is just a train. The sitting by plastic for two hours does no one any harm arguement is true but remember that they are also use for 430 journeys. However I have never seen them full north of Preston so people can move.

The one thing I would state as others have that standards improve. You rarely see someone saying a 1970s car has a better passenger enviroment than a 2010 equivalent. However you do with rail vechiles. Don't know why but some of us would rather ride a mk1 to a new train. I don't think I have heard even the hardest petrol head say they would rather drive a 4 hour journey in a classic car in the winter to a more recent one. It is not just enthusasts either many normal people on the ECML chose to avoid the voyagers. Don't know on mml if liecester passengers wait for the hst. I doubt it but passengers will wait for a following train if they know it had power sockets etc.

 

[Justin Smith]

Who said that the ATP would qualify as "safe" today?

That is my point.
If you`re saying the APT would not qualify as "safe" today, the pertinent question is why not ?
What exactly would the statistical "risk" be from travelling in thus "unsafe" train ?
My argument is that in the real world the "safety" difference between a Pendolino, a Mk3 or an APT would be irrelevant.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Don't know why but some of us would rather ride a mk1 to a new train.

Because, not counting the originally fitted BR1/BR2 bogies, they were more comfortable, and had no engine under the floor !
I agree they didn`t have air conditioning which was a definite improvement (though the air con doesn`t always work anyway does it ! ) so a better example would be Mk2s or Mk3s. I`d definitely rather travel in one of those than any multiple unit, period.
My wife and I travelled up to Leeds in a Voyager, it was stuck waiting for a platform outside Leeds with the throbbing engine underneath us. We`d just come back from a trip to Paris, and we both agreed that a Eurostar at 100mph was quieter than a Voyager (or Meridian) when it`s stationary....

 

[Failed Unit]

That is my point.
If you're saying the APT would not qualify as "safe" today, the pertinent question is why not ?
What exactly would the statistical "risk" be from travelling in thus "unsafe" train ?
My argument is that in the real world the "safety" difference between a Pendolino, a Mk3 or an APT would be irrelevant.

I thread has gone slightly off topic, but it got me thinking the APT could carry passengers in the leading coach at above 100mph as it was designed before 1984. The Polmont accident banned passengers from the front coach of a passenger train if it was going at 100mph, this stayed in place until the Pendo / Voyager range and they needed a massive crumple zone to do this. I wonder had the APT made it into service if it would have been exempt from the report after Polmont?

 

[Justin Smith]

You cannot quantify these things - they are considerations given the worst possible set of circumstances.

Of course you can quantify them, but if you`re saying it`s all guesswork then they`ve no business taking away my view out of the window for a "back of the envelope" hunch !
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Justin, those windows look about the same size as 390 windows?

Well I`ve just looked at the interior picture I took when we were on it and it looks a hell of a lot less claustrophobic than a Pendilono, all the seats that I can see in the pic line up with the windows for a start, and those window pillars don`t look as wide as my garden path either !

 

[northwichcat]

"
Yes it's nice to have space to put your laptop, papers etc, but you wouldn't expect it on a bus, coach or aeroplane so why should you have a divine right to it on a train?

I think in fairness a one hour journey on a plane with an hour in a waiting lounge could be an alternative to a four hour train journey. So assuming it's 40 minutes to get to and from the airports and 15 minutes for security checks if you've checked in online it would only equate to a maximum of 2 hours where you can't work by plane opposed to 4 hours by train.

 

[Justin Smith]

The one thing I would state as others have that standards improve.

But when it comes to Inter City stock they haven`t improved, which was the original point I was making.
The EMT C158 is a nicer travelling environmant than a first generation 1950s/1960s DMU, assuming the air con is working, obviously......
On the other hand I think most people would agree that a 1970s Mk3 coach is a better travelling environment than a Meridian, a Voyager or a Pendolino.

 

[tbtc]

I think most people would agree that a 1970s Mk3 coach is a better travelling environment than a Meridian, a Voyager or a Pendolino

There's an element of "everything was better in the good old days" though, which is one reason I avoid some of these arguments.

We remember the good things, but not the bad.

 

[Failed Unit]

But when it comes to Inter City stock they haven't improved, which was the original point I was making.
The EMT C158 is a nicer travelling environmant than a first generation 1950s/1960s DMU, assuming the air con is working, obviously......
On the other hand I think most people would agree that a 1970s Mk3 coach is a better travelling environment than a Meridian, a Voyager or a Pendolino.

I should quantify my oringinal post, standards have improved in cars comfort very few would disagree with that even basic things like radios and not leaking Crash worthyness standards have improved in everything. But it is definately open to debate if passenger comfort on rail coaches have. It provokes a lot of passion. The 1970's mk3 coach has access to wi-fi and anyone travelling on an XC Voyager and trying to use thier mobile will tell you it is very hard! (Not sure what they are like on the 222's). Yes in a perfect world every seat would have a good view, but that hasn't been the case since the mk2 (progress). Most other issues are down to seat design etc. If you put the same seats in a mk3 as you have in a pendo at the same pitch it would be interesting then to see which people prefered. On my last WCML journey I was glad to change onto the 185 from the Voyager, but someone else on here may feel the opposite.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

"Diddums" is the first word that springs to mind.

I wish the designs of seat-back tables were better as much as the next person - one only has to look at some continental trains to see the difference between them and the pathetic little flap you get on most UK stock. "Strong complaints", though? I was under the impression that the primary objective of train travel is transport from one place to another place; the provision of space to double as a mobile office surely must come secondary. And if it's that important, these people should pay the extra and travel in first class, where tables are pretty much always provided.

Yes it's nice to have space to put your laptop, papers etc, but you wouldn't expect it on a bus, coach or aeroplane so why should you have a divine right to it on a train?

(Of course, complaining about double-booking of seats and knackered seat reservation systems I completely understand.)

I missed this post earlier and many others have picked up on it. Many people specifcally pick rail so they can use it as a mobile office. The IC operators have set out thier stall in this way. Operators of the East, West and Great Western routes have marketed thier services in this way. They have provided power points, wi-fi etc to entice business travellers onto the train. I have never used a laptop on a FGW HST airline seat but I understand it is possible to do it comfortably. So why should you have a devine right, well you could argue you shouldn't but if rail companies turn thier trains into aircraft then people will just use the aircraft. You can't use you phone or access the internet on a train so their isn't much point in catering for it! MML and Anglia didn't go for the power sockets on the trains as they took the viewpoint that most of thier passengers are not on long enough to take advantage. It will be interesting how internet on trains develops, I see it on many coaches now and even short runs such as London - Brighton.

Some operators such as London overground have gone for maximum space, However saying that if you want you space pay to go first class! Have you seen the price of a Standard Class open return between London and Manchester, when you pay that much money you don't want airline conditions!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There's an element of "everything was better in the good old days" though, which is one reason I avoid some of these arguments.

We remember the good things, but not the bad.

I know what you are saying, even if you say what is better a mk1 Fiesta or the latest version, I doubt many would say the mk1 in terms of comfort. However many prefer the mk1 as they could do whatever they needed to in their garage. Basically it was a simpler car so easy to fix. We had the same debates between the mk1's and latest gen EMU's. There wasn't much that couldn't be fixed on a mk1 without a monkey wrench and hammer The latest gen EMU's have more to go wrong. Hence why at the begining the Mk1's were better than the EMU's they replaced in terms of reliability.

 

[TMTSTMTS]

But when it comes to Inter City stock they haven't improved, which was the original point I was making.
The EMT C158 is a nicer travelling environmant than a first generation 1950s/1960s DMU, assuming the air con is working, obviously......
On the other hand I think most people would agree that a 1970s Mk3 coach is a better travelling environment than a Meridian, a Voyager or a Pendolino.

I would like to disagree with you there. As someone who has become a train enthusiast basically through regularly travelling on pendolinos, voyagers and meridians etc (yes it might seem strange to most of you) I would just say that a lot of you people seem to try and make issues with these trains that most average travelling passengers simply wouldnt think about. Probably just because they've replaced the mk1/2/3 stock you travelled on when you were younger. Things change, thats just the way it is.

Personally when I was an average rail user I didn't care about voyager/meridian engine noise or pendolino window pillars and none of the people I travelled with on many occasions cared either. Now obviously I don't speak for everyone but if these pieces of "absolute crap" inspired me to become a train nerd then they can't be too offensive to most normal other people, especially considering they've brought on a boom era of growth for the WCML.

And with regards to the pendolino windows you might've noticed they are 140mph capable (though obviously they don't do it currently) tilting trains and I think having less visibility is a small price to pay for the speed and safety.

And yes I know its my first post so probably not worth listening to but I had to post here eventually, I cant really keep up with the amount of knowledge some people on here have at the moment though

 

[Failed Unit]

Personally when I was an average rail user I didn't care about voyager/meridian engine noise or pendolino window pillars and none of the people I travelled with on many occasions cared either. Now obviously I don't speak for everyone but if these pieces of "absolute crap" inspired me to become a train nerd then they can't be too offensive to most normal other people, especially considering they've brought on a boom era of growth for the WCML.

Everyones view is valid. I used to travel with work to Darlington from Glasgow every other week. We had a choice of GNER or Virgin at the time. My collegues looked at a train as a means of getting from A-B but we would always make sure that we were on the GNER service. The main reason they avoided the Voyager were. Catering (not the trains fault), No mobile reception (Virgin have fixed this on the ones on the WCML), Comfort (The could both have the same seats), Finally they couldn't stand the smell from the toilets on the Voyagers (I think this has been fixed).

It would be hard to tell if the pendo has bought growth alone on the WCML. MML has had significant growth which is down to the increase in frequency. The WCML has also enjoyed increased frequency, which brings passengers. Most IC routes have enjoyed growth. I think the WCML growth is a combination of factors, the fact you can use the route without engineering disruption is a big plus for people travelling at Weekends.

Looking at it the other way, I doubt anyone has done any of the following because they don't like the pendos on a Journey to Manchester:

1. Used London Midland to Stoke-On-Trent / Crewe then Northern
2. Used MML to Sheffield then EMT / TPE
3. Flown instead
4. Taken the car.
5. Gone by coach

As you say the train is a tool to get from A-B and as long as it is quicker than other options most people will take it.

 

[northwichcat]

I find Northern do on many of their more rural services in the off peaks, its a compromise really because most see really heavy peak usage but not that much off peak.

Depends how you define off-peak. Officially peak periods are 06:30-09:29 and 16:01-17:59 on weekdays only. You can easily find a Northern service at 10am which is overcrowded and easily find one crowded with schoolchildren before 4pm.

I think the Buxton and Warrington lines do follow your statement of crowded at peak times and quiet at off-peak times. However, on other lines like Hazel Grove to Preston and Chester to Manchester it can be difficult to find a quiet time and when you are travelling on a quietest train it's common to pass a very busy in the opposite direction.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Standard class to Liverpool and Glasgow can be ridiculous even during the middle of the day. With only 1tph still, they get crush-loaded easily. Carlisle - Warrington, used as a commuter corridor doesn't help things.

That's why the CT Birmingham-Preston service was needed. Unfortunately they only found one path in the afternoon and it missed out stations that it should have ideally called at.

I travel frequently on EC as well, Newcastle - York and Edinburgh - Doncaster. My conclusion is that loadings per train are higher on EC, except FC which can be heavily loaded on Virgin, but aided by VHF, overall number of passengers per hour is higher on the West Coast than the east.

GNER did use to have the seat reservation recommended symbol on off-peak trains in their timetables. I'm not sure if East Coast still do. However, it has been clear that East Coast and FGW (London services) have since the biggest drops in passenger numbers because of the recession.

 

[HITMAN]

But when it comes to Inter City stock they haven't improved, which was the original point I was making.
The EMT C158 is a nicer travelling environmant than a first generation 1950s/1960s DMU, assuming the air con is working, obviously......
On the other hand I think most people would agree that a 1970s Mk3 coach is a better travelling environment than a Meridian, a Voyager or a Pendolino.

I don't think thats the case at all, I would rather travel on MK4 coach on a 225 than an original Mark 3 coach on a 125. Moreover the new stock has delivered faster accelaration and higher top speeds which have lead to more people using the network.

Everyones view is valid. I used to travel with work to Darlington from Glasgow every other week. We had a choice of GNER or Virgin at the time. My collegues looked at a train as a means of getting from A-B but we would always make sure that we were on the GNER service. The main reason they avoided the Voyager were. Catering (not the trains fault), No mobile reception (Virgin have fixed this on the ones on the WCML), Comfort (The could both have the same seats), Finally they couldn't stand the smell from the toilets on the Voyagers (I think this has been fixed).

It would be hard to tell if the pendo has bought growth alone on the WCML. MML has had significant growth which is down to the increase in frequency. The WCML has also enjoyed increased frequency, which brings passengers. Most IC routes have enjoyed growth. I think the WCML growth is a combination of factors, the fact you can use the route without engineering disruption is a big plus for people travelling at Weekends.

Looking at it the other way, I doubt anyone has done any of the following because they don't like the pendos on a Journey to Manchester:

1. Used London Midland to Stoke-On-Trent / Crewe then Northern
2. Used MML to Sheffield then EMT / TPE
3. Flown instead
4. Taken the car.
5. Gone by coach

As you say the train is a tool to get from A-B and as long as it is quicker than other options most people will take it.

Depends how you define off-peak. Officially peak periods are 06:30-09:29 and 16:01-17:59 on weekdays only. You can easily find a Northern service at 10am which is overcrowded and easily find one crowded with schoolchildren before 4pm.

I think the Buxton and Warrington lines do follow your statement of crowded at peak times and quiet at off-peak times. However, on other lines like Hazel Grove to Preston and Chester to Manchester it can be difficult to find a quiet time and when you are travelling on a quietest train it's common to pass a very busy in the opposite direction.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


That's why the CT Birmingham-Preston service was needed. Unfortunately they only found one path in the afternoon and it missed out stations that it should have ideally called at.



GNER did use to have the seat reservation recommended symbol on off-peak trains in their timetables. I'm not sure if East Coast still do. However, it has been clear that East Coast and FGW (London services) have since the biggest drops in passenger numbers because of the recession.

On the ECML northern section I don't mind having either a Voyager or a 225, but I will actively avoid a 185 because its a suburban unit with a suburban design running on an intercity route.

 

[tbtc]

I know what you are saying, even if you say what is better a mk1 Fiesta or the latest version, I doubt many would say the mk1 in terms of comfort. However many prefer the mk1 as they could do whatever they needed to in their garage. Basically it was a simpler car so easy to fix. We had the same debates between the mk1's and latest gen EMU's. There wasn't much that couldn't be fixed on a mk1 without a monkey wrench and hammer The latest gen EMU's have more to go wrong. Hence why at the begining the Mk1's were better than the EMU's they replaced in terms of reliability.

I think there's two things that affect all cars/ trains etc:

1. Complicated. Modern vehicles have a lot more features/ functions

2. Digital. In the past, a vehicle could continue in service with a few minor faults because it wasn't a "black and white" issue. Nowadays, a part may function at 90% but that shows as "failing" so the vehicle has to be taken out of service. You could have struggled on before, but now things are different.

I'm reluctant to say "most passengers prefer Type A to Type B" though

 

[Failed Unit]

I'm reluctant to say "most passengers prefer Type A to Type B" though

Nope too subjective. If you want to get from A-B reliably then you want to be on a line operated by a 357 or 360 as the top the PPM table. But a 357 is uncomfortable, the mk1 is much more comfortable. Hmm so lets put the mk1 seats and the 357 now what do you think? But you can't open the windows on a 357, yes but the mk1 you couldn't close the windows.

It would go on forever.

The pitch in first class all seats in a pendo line up with the windows, you could have this pitch in standard and lose a few seats (Should be able to fit baggage between the seat backs). Would people be happy - who knows? But when I read most people problems with rolling stock they tend to be the cosmetic things that can be fixed rather than a flawed design. I must confess I have never travelled standard on a Pendo, but the First Class is very nice. I prefer the mk4 but that is just me because I like the larger windows. (The smaller window can mean less glare) It wouldn't stop me using a pendo. The main reason I don't on London - Scotland journeys is that East Coast tends to be cheaper, I like the catering better (you can use credit card to pay for it ) and I don't need to cross stations in Glasgow. Not that there is anything wrong with Glasgow, just that in Edinburgh it is all the same station.

 

[northwichcat]

On the ECML northern section I don't mind having either a Voyager or a 225, but I will actively avoid a 185 because its a suburban unit with a suburban design running on an intercity route.

If you start from the South Manchester/Cheshire area and are going to Newcastle it's just as quick to get TPE or EMT to Sheffield or Doncaster and a Voyager or Mallard to Newcastle. From some stations that's even a cheaper option than going in to Manchester and catching the direct train.

When I went to Newcastle in 2002 I didn't mind which way I went. If I did it now I'd try to avoid using TPE for most of the journey.

Having 350s running Birmingham-Preston like I suggested would be the stopping service and people doing the longer distances would continue to use Virgin as it would be faster.
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The pitch in first class all seats in a pendo line up with the windows, you could have this pitch in standard and lose a few seats

No there's 3 FC seats that are marked as no or limited view on VT's seating plans and there have been complaints from people on this forum who've been allocated those seats.

 

[generalvegitable]

Please enlighten me. I tend to find loadings on east coast higher. In fact I have never seen a pendo half full. Super voyager maybe.

are you joking? the pendos are full (almost) to standing every time I have been on the things

 

[Failed Unit]

are you joking? the pendos are full (almost) to standing every time I have been on the things

No I am not. I have never used them in the high peak but off peak the are rarely full on the routes I seem them on. Lots of room on leaving new street toward London mid afternoon. Lots of room out of Manchester as well. Never full from Glasgow. Yes I travel first on pendo but I normally have a look in standard. The 1630 London to Glasgow has a lot of fresh air carried away. I am not saying that they are not full high peak just in my experience the loadings on the voyagers are higher. If virgin were doing so well of peak then they wouldn't offer such low fares to birmingham and Manchester off peak. Niether route needs the 20 minute frequency off peak with current loadings.

 

[Slaffter]

This may have been covered but in EMT's timetables (available from their website or stations) it says at the top of the column if it's a Meridian or HST service. This tends to be accurate - I've been travelling between London and Loughborough with EMT quite regularly for the last couple of years and the timetable's only ever been out once.

Slaffter

 

[Justin Smith]

There's an element of "everything was better in the good old days" though, which is one reason I avoid some of these arguments.

We remember the good things, but not the bad.

To an extent you`ve got a general point, but in the same post you`ve quoted from I also admit that first generation DMUs weren`t up to a EMT C158, as long as the latter`s air con is working......
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these pieces of "absolute crap"

And with regards to the pendolino windows you might've noticed they are 140mph capable (though obviously they don't do it currently) tilting trains and I think having less visibility is a small price to pay for the speed and safety.

I never said the Pendolinos "in toto" were absolute crap, however the windows are, in my opinion, and many others, absolute crap.

The APT was 150mph capable and had nearly twice the window area of a Pendolino. A Eurostar is 188mph cpable and a TGV (Sud) 200mph capable, none of them have minute windows.....
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I don't think thats the case at all, I would rather travel on MK4 coach on a 225 than an original Mark 3 coach on a 125.

I`d rank the Mk4 up with the Mk3, more or less anyway.
In terms of comfort (and quietness for the diesel trains) either are far superior to any multiple unit, esp an EMT Meridian or a Pendolino, IN SECOND CLASS IN PARTICULAR !