ECML Disruption - Saturday 27th December

[GB]

I assume that there will be vacancies shortly at Network Rail and its subcontractors for those of you looking for a challenge

If that is the case, and I see no reason why there should be, it would indeed be a good time for the arm chair experts on here to dust off their CV and give it a go.

 

[ainsworth74]

If that is the case, and I see no reason why there should be, it would indeed be a good time for the arm chair experts on here to dust off their CV and give it a go.

I've been thinking that. If people are so confident that these issues could have been easily avoided might I suggest they get themselves into the jobs in question so we might all benefit from their wisdom...

 

[Crossover]

Moving ahead a little, is there any news on when the approach to The Cross will be available - if they can get something through tomorrow it will no doubt alleviate some of the backlog that has been thrown onto other lines today?

 

[Darandio]

Moving ahead a little, is there any news on when the approach to The Cross will be available - if they can get something through tomorrow it will no doubt alleviate some of the backlog that has been thrown onto other lines today?

The NR fella on the news earlier said they should hopefully have it all back during tonight, then run a service out of Kings Cross tomorrow.

 

[asylumxl]

I do love the irony of calling people arm chair experts.

May I ask, are any of the people saying such things caught up in the disruption?

 

[matacaster]

I'm sure that the possibility of an overrun was very high on their list of things that kept them awake at night.
With six different work sites, and the different permutations of what services could be run, and not know ing where the 'right place' would be I think it would have been almost impossible to staff ahead of time.

I do agree that they could / should have arranged to have more staff on an on-call basis in case they were needed - maybe a small bonus for agreeing to be available to encourage take-up. For all I know, they may have done this.

Without knowing the details of what had been planned for, it's equally possible that it may be a tactical failure, rather than strategic. They had a plan, but it was overtaken by events.

But the plan was ABSOLUTE RUBBISH and it was obvious to any two year old that it was highly likely to fail. You need to have at least ONE route from / to London North, South, East, West without ANY work taking place. This may have meant longer journeys, unusual routes, but a service WOULD be available. A small amount of work might have had to be put off until later, but this is a fiasco.

 

[Darandio]

But the plan was ABSOLUTE RUBBISH and it was obvious to any two year old that it was highly likely to fail

Really?

Rich, can I use your word? Wibble.

 

[IanXC]

Seems tomorrows timetable is based on reversals at Finsbury Park signal K68 for access from Finsbury Park p4 to p5 on the southbound.

 

[Saint66]

By the way, those people that claim Britain 'came to a standstill' today, I traveled up the M1 earlier from London, and although there was more traffic than you would expect, it was hardly gridlock all the way... Clearly people have headed some of the advice and have looked for alternative transport.

 

[DarloRich]

I was actually making the point that the fault in this case lies with the generals (the executive level senior management on six figure salaries), not the poor bloody infantry on the ground trying to fight fires in all directions and make the best of an awful situation they've been left with.

Do you know what has happended? I have seen tell of lifting equipment fialure.

Using the following example as a theoretical idea not based on this situation: If, say, your Kirov crane goes U/S due to a catastrophic failure where will you get another one? There are about 5 in the country and they will all have been in intensive use over this period. Is that the company CEO responsibility?

Why did the senior management not ensure that there were plenty of extra staff rostered (and paid them bonus of up to £500 to ensure sufficient volunteers) so that the stations affected would have many extra staff on hand?

because there were plenty of staff rostered for the planned work. What will happen next year is that loads of staff will be rostered on, paid a fortune to do nothing and then go home. People like you will then complain that the costs of the work are prohibitive/excessive and the papers will be full of X company staff were paid Y (a big sum) to sit around reading the paper.

You also assume you can get the staff to show up. It is Christmas; will they all be fit for work? If you are signed off from a zero tolerance regime and not on call you might have had a glass or two of wine with your lunch or dinner.

Will the staff be at home? I am at my parents nearly 400 miles from my place of work. If my work rang now and called me back I would arrive about 1am without any hold ups. My working day would also be almost over.

Will the staff say yes? You assume morale is such that people will happily give up their leave for £250 (when you tax the £500) - if people are not happy they won’t do it.

Why did no one in senior management get GTR to run an intensive 8 train per hour service from Bowes Park to Moorgate using 6 car 313s (and enabling cross platform interchange with Vic line at Highbury & Islington) - again paying the staff a large bonus to ensure sufficient volunteers - and enabling pax on terminating trains to go cross platform at Finsbury onto Moorgate while the IC train then goes to Canonbury spur, reverses and picks up northbound pax (again arriving cross platform from Moorgate direction)?

Same points apply re staff. You also assume someone has the power to command a TOC to do their bidding. Have you thought the TOC was asked and said no?

 

[matacaster]

Really?

Rich, can I use your word? Wibble.

YES, it was rubbish. It was a STRATEGIC blunder, not a technical or detailed planning blunder. Incidentally I used to be a project manager, though not on the railways.

 

[ainsworth74]

You need to have at least ONE route from / to London North, South, East, West without ANY work taking place.

When was Marylebone closed? Or Waterloo for that matter?

 

[DarloRich]

YES, it was rubbish. It was a STRATEGIC blunder, not a technical or detailed planning blunder. Incidentally I used to be a project manager, though not on the railways.

and of course you know, exactly, what happened here and why I assume. Just like you assume that no planning ever goes into these jobs.

I know, why not offer your services to NR as a consultant, hell you could join with the others on here and make a fortune as clearly you never made any mistakes. The day rate will be superb…..

 

[amcluesent]

 

[21C101]

Many people don't have projects where failure can be so publicly disruptive and scrutinised. Many of the projects that fail just never get discovered, buried in the back of reports and statistics.

I expect that something has knocked the Critical Path for this project. It's not easy to get spare parts and a redundancy plan in play on Christmas Day and insurance costs money. Projects can quickly become an ACE and a reason why not to do things. Network Rail needs to take risks to get these projects done. Whilst they deserve scrutiny for the amount of public money involved, I think the best thing they need is that they need support.

I assume that there will be vacancies shortly at Network Rail and its subcontractors for those of you looking for a challenge

But the issue is NOT that the possession overran by 24 hours. That risk is always there. Pope is Catholic, Bears s*** in the woods, posessions overrun.

The issue is IMHO that the industry management should have assumed that the posesssion would overrun and had emergency timetables and rostering arrangements of both railway staff and coaches/coach drivers covering the situation written and signed off months ago (which the much maligned FCC did on Thameslink to cover operating problems - meaning that as soon as the problem occcured they just pressed the metaphorical "go" button and implemented the emergency arrangements)

This would include paying the extra staff a fee to be available immediately if the emergency timetable is put into place and they get the phone call and paying them another larger fee on top of their normal hourly wages if they are required.

What do you think hospitals do when there is a disaster and they suddenly get hundreds of casualties arriving? They have it all worked out before; if this happens we do this and get these staff in and when the problem occurs implement the plan.

 

[DarloRich]

But the plan was ABSOLUTE RUBBISH and it was obvious to any two year old that it was highly likely to fail. You need to have at least ONE route from / to London North, South, East, West without ANY work taking place. This may have meant longer journeys, unusual routes, but a service WOULD be available. A small amount of work might have had to be put off until later, but this is a fiasco.

You haven’t the first clue what you are talking about.

 

[najaB]

This may have meant longer journeys, unusual routes, but a service WOULD be available. A small amount of work might have had to be put off until later, but this is a fiasco.

Unless I've missed something, a service IS available today. People have been able to travel today, just with longer journeys or alternative routes....

 

[GB]

I do love the irony of calling people arm chair experts.

May I ask, are any of the people saying such things caught up in the disruption?

Yes, I was caught up in it all when I was down there on site working Christmas day. It was a pile of poo then, but everyone, including the possession management were doing their best to get things back on track again.

Where exactly is the irony calling someone an arm chair expert?

 

[jon0844]

And for all those stuck at Potters Bar, Cockfosters is a short hop on the 298 bus. Shame these links aren't better publicised in times of crisis...

They are to commuters who can get the disruption leaflets with a myriad of alternative options, but a lot of people wouldn't even know such things existed.

 

[21C101]

Do you know what has happended? I have seen tell of lifting equipment fialure.

Using the following example as a theoretical idea not based on this situation: If, say, your Kirov crane goes U/S due to a catastrophic failure where will you get another one? There are about 5 in the country and they will all have been in intensive use over this period. Is that the company CEO responsibility?

Using your example, if you are a train operator and the infrastructure bods are using a kirov crane that you cant replace if it goes pete tong you assume that it will go pete tong, delaying the possession handback and write an emergency timetable and rostering arrangements long before the event.

A possession overruning is an entirely forseeable matter.

Its not a network rail company CEO responsibility, its a TOC company CEO responsibility.

 

[Tom B]

Interestingly the HT services to/from St Pancras appear to have run ok, a mere half hour late. Was it not possible to obtain sufficient staff to operate more this way - particularly thinking of EC's HSTs.

We heard on the tannoy that following trains were turning at Stevenage and some stuck in the queue let passengers off at e.g. New Barnet. In this situation this ought to have been considered for other trains, surely. It is not reasonable to expect people to stand for 4+ hours. Could a system not be adopted like on LUL where trains are held at station platforms during disruption so that at least people can bail out and seek another route if the delay gets worse? OK this wouldn't work everywhere but would have today.

There were East Coast staff at FPK by the afternoon, who had presumably been drafted in from King's Cross. They seemed to be doing general crowd control duties alongside GN staff, BTP constables, NR staff and Bus inspectors - looks like anybody with a fluorescent jacket was wheeled out.

The post which suggested that a TOC could refuse an instruction to operate certain services demonstrates a major flaw in the fragmented railway system - there is nobody to say "right, X is the best course of action - TOC X you do this, TOC Y you do that, TOC Z you do this" etc.

Surely, given the amount of paperwork and management in the rail industry, somebody somewhere has to plan for contingencies? Is there no pre-made backup plan for use of e.g. FPK as an emergency terminus if KGX is out of action for whatever reason? It would be silly to suggest P45s ought to be dished out - the key is that those responsible are suitably hauled over the coals so that they do it properly next time.

 

[21C101]

They are to commuters who can get the disruption leaflets with a myriad of alternative options, but a lot of people wouldn't even know such things existed.

They would if someone handed them out to all the pax on the train after it left Doncaster.

 

[Darandio]

Is there no pre-made backup plan for use of e.g. FPK as an emergency terminus if KGX is out of action for whatever reason?

Yes, and that plan was in action today, as was the same use of crowd control they use when Arsenal play at home. Whether that plan was any good is debatable of course, but the MD did confirm this was the pre-planned implementation of a plan for such an eventuality.

 

[14xxDave]

NR a not for profit Company,same thinking as as state owned,so long as the fat cats get a bonus for failure, we passengers suffer but pay for failure.
NR needs sorting out,too many comfort zones,the NR Manager telling the media we ran 10K trains today says it all.
Little wonder if NR cocks up the Wrexham redouble,what chance elsewhere.
No wonder Welsh Government,want control of infrastructure from 2018.Problem is NR dont suffer penalty clauses like real industry,just pay the not for profit fine out of reserves, sorry I do feel sorry for the passenger, the important element after all.
Politicians will ask questions,ORR will fine, status que remains.

NR1: We have so many financial penalties in place it's gonna work!
NR2: Well done mate.
NR1: Err it's gone wrong, we're in the ****.
NR2: But the penalties?
NR1: It has bugger all to do with those mate.
NR2: I'm off to a cocktail party, deal with it.
NR1: Aaaarrrr

 

[matacaster]

and of course you know, exactly, what happened here and why I assume. Just like you assume that no planning ever goes into these jobs.

I know, why not offer your services to NR as a consultant, hell you could join with the others on here and make a fortune as clearly you never made any mistakes. The day rate will be superb…..

I did not suggest no planning had taken place. It is obvious that LOTS of detailed planning took place which I am sure took a great deal of time and effort. But that is the detail. It is the Strategy of doing so much work at the same time, leaving few clear routes open to/from London which leaves yourself hostage to fortune. NR haven't got a great reputation for finishing infrastructure work on time now have they. I'm not saying its easy and I'm sure they just wanted to get as much done as possible. However, it was bound to be a busy day because people couldn't travel by rail on Boxing day, so you've got 2 days worth of passengers, with many with Scottish links coming / going to London.

I DO NOT know why things went wrong today. I do know that Marylebone might be able to cope with its normal traffic + reduced WCML, but its unlikely to be able to handle ECML traffic when as far as I am aware no plans to use it for that.

Secondly, I once went to a recruitment event 'organised' by Railtrack. It was advertised as simply asking for experience of Project Management. I travelled to Sheffield to this event. When I introduced myself, they said ...oh, we meant project managers with experience of infrastructure projects.

 

[DarloRich]

Using your example, if you are a train operator and the infrastructure bods are using a kirov crane that you cant replace if it goes pete tong you assume that it will go pete tong, delaying the possession handback and write an emergency timetable and rostering arrangements long before the event.

A possession overruning is an entirely forseeable matter.

Its not a network rail company CEO responsibility, its a TOC company CEO responsibility.

but how do you know they didnt already do that as a plan b but that we are now on plan T?

 

[badassunicorn]

But the issue is NOT that the possession overran by 24 hours. That risk is always there. Pope is Catholic, Bears s*** in the woods, posessions overrun.

The issue is IMHO that the industry management should have assumed that the posesssion would overrun and had emergency timetables and rostering arrangements of both railway staff and coaches/coach drivers covering the situation written and signed off months ago (which the much maligned FCC did on Thameslink to cover operating problems - meaning that as soon as the problem occcured they just pressed the metaphorical "go" button and implemented the emergency arrangements)

This would include paying the extra staff a fee to be available immediately if the emergency timetable is put into place and they get the phone call and paying them another larger fee on top of their normal hourly wages if they are required.

What do you think hospitals do when there is a disaster and they suddenly get hundreds of casualties arriving? They have it all worked out before; if this happens we do this and get these staff in and when the problem occurs implement the plan.

I remember last year, the TOC I work for put in emergency plans in advance of what was reported to be some exceptional weather. 12 hours before they cancelled a bunch of trains etc. As it turned out the weather wasn't that bad, or if it was, didn't cause as much damage as expected, and said TOC got lampooned by the public for running an amended service with no need. In my opinion, everybody knows that Christmas is a nightmare for using the railways, and yet every year the news sites and shows make out like its never happened before and we are all shocked.

 

[21C101]

but how do you know they didnt already do that as a plan b but that we are now on plan T?

Because the emergency timetable wasn't published by 6PM last night, which it would have been if it had been pre-written like the FCC emergency timetables were.

 

[Stats]

The situation has improved and in the last few minutes the backlog of trains was cleared and there are now no trains queueing for Finsbury Park. Thats a good effort considering there were 6 trains held at various locations back to Stevenage this afternoon.

 

[Tom B]

I remember last year, the TOC I work for put in emergency plans in advance of what was reported to be some exceptional weather. 12 hours before they cancelled a bunch of trains etc. As it turned out the weather wasn't that bad, or if it was, didn't cause as much damage as expected, and said TOC got lampooned by the public for running an amended service with no need. In my opinion, everybody knows that Christmas is a nightmare for using the railways, and yet every year the news sites and shows make out like its never happened before and we are all shocked.

There is a difference between "expecting a busy and crowded journey" (which you would, travelling the day after a two day suspension), "expecting a busy and abnormally crowded journey because many trains are cancelled", and the chaos which ran today!