Edinburgh Tram developments

[dk1]

I'm not bothered how much it cost. It's done now so wish people would give it a rest & move on. I used them several times last week & all where well loaded, smooth & efficient. Thought the on board guys were doing a fantastic job with revenue protection in such a friendly & helpful manner. Let's hope line extensions come sooner rather than later.

 

[WatcherZero]

I guess the Metrolink Airport line opening more than a year early will be a bludgeon the SNP use during their tram enquiry to try and put the blame on opponents and disguise the fact they did everything they could to prevent it opening.

 

[NotATrainspott]

St James developers may bankroll tram extension

Someone posted this on SSC and it is very interesting indeed. The St James shopping development is going to be extremely well served by the tram and their plans were to some extent built around the Picardy Place stop and road reconfiguration, so at the very least it was likely that they would pay for those extra few hundred metres to be done properly. However, this article is suggesting that they would provide a commercial loan to the council so that they could finish the entire line up to Newhaven because it would bring the area of Scotland with the highest population density only a few minutes away from the centre by tram. Most of the cost involved in the line to Newhaven has already been spent but none of that essential revenue from the people there is being earned, so it would be an entirely sensible option for the council to take.

On top of that, it is not possible to use any more trams on the line in existence at the moment because there is no way to turn back trams at York Place any faster, so even if the western end proved to be a resounding success on its own it would still be severely limited by the loss of the eastern end. Once confidence in the systems' abilities grows after the whole of Phase 1a is built, it will be far easier for the council to approach other financiers to pay for further extensions even in the likely event of a No and a 2016 SNP win.

 

[Starmill]

It seems eminently sensible for them to be pressing on with the extension given that they wouldn't need to buy any more trams for it! One of the media reports suggested that they have bought rails and other construction materials for the rest of the line already too - are they in storage (which also presumably costs money) somewhere?

 

[Blindtraveler]

This is he goodness knows how many'eth time the St James development has come up but can see it working due to this offer. Yes indeed additional materials are in storage, what its costing I dont know. It will be one to watch and largely dependant on the success or not of the tram once the novalty factor has warn off.

 

[gswindale]

Used it today to get to the airport (was staying in Rothesay Terrace).

Very impressed with the ease of use and the journey times. Seemed also to be reasonably well utilised not just by people heading to the airport, but those going home from the centre (and not just to the p&r either).

Customer Service staff were also very friendly.

I wish it all the best for the future and hopefully there will be more routes available next time I'm in Edinburgh!

 

[khib70]

I'm not bothered how much it cost. It's done now so wish people would give it a rest & move on. I used them several times last week & all where well loaded, smooth & efficient. Thought the on board guys were doing a fantastic job with revenue protection in such a friendly & helpful manner. Let's hope line extensions come sooner rather than later.

Aye right. Let's ignore the fact that this is probably the most expensive tram project per mile in history. Let's ignore the frankly bizarre track alignment. Let's ignore the fact that it runs through empty fields for most of its length. Let's ignore the lack of air conditioning. Let's ignore the fact that the town centre stops are absurdly misplaced. Let's ignore the havoc they caused in Leith Walk without ever delivering a service.

And then let's joyfully bankroll more council vanity projects....

I don't know if you live here or not, but I do, and the whole thing is a monstrous white elephant. And from what I've seen, they're carting prodigious amounts of fresh air around.

Edit: Just noticed you live in East Anglia. Easy to propose expenditures you're not going to have to pay for yourself, isn't it?

 

[90019]

Let's ignore the lack of air conditioning.

Speaking of which:

http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.c...s-over-edinburgh-s-sweltering-trams-1-3452325

SWELTERING temperatures have forced tram drivers to open carriage doors at each stop to cool passengers because the £2 million vehicles do not provide air conditioning.

The decision to forgo climate control was taken by the now defunct Transport Initiatives Edinburgh in 2007 when they placed an order with Spanish firm CAF for 27 trams.

But with the mercury hitting 25 degrees in recent days, passengers have told of uncomfortable and sticky conditions on board the £776 million tram line.

In particular, this part from our very own Rentaquote Hinds:

City transport convenor Cllr Lesley Hinds said: “The decision was taken a number of years ago not to fit air conditioning on trams.
“Generally, the weather here doesn’t justify it but temperatures have been unusually 
high and we are looking at ways of improving comfort on board.”

Temperatures in the mid 20s is not unusually high for summer in Edinburgh. I've lived here all my life and it happens pretty much every year.



Bring on the Festival, when it'll be just as warm and the trams will get stuck in the traffic on Princes Street during the day.

 

[edwin_m]

Hmm. Was the lack of aircon one reason they didn't manage to flog the spare ones to Croydon?

 

[Starmill]

There are light rail vehicles in the UK that do have air con!?

Ours certainly don't. Enough whinging it's only like being on a bus (but faster)...

 

[gswindale]

Having travelled on it on Sunday afternoon; I can state that I did not even notice a lack of a/c!

I would have thought that opening all the doors (on the correct side) would be standard procedure like it is on a modern train rather than an optional "if the driver feels like it"?

Clearly there were issues with the construction; however it does seem to be reasonably well utilised - certainly looked that way whenever I saw one between Fri/Sun.

Hopefully Edinburgh can learn from this to extend the network at better value as it is there now & unlikely to disappear any time soon.

 

[90019]

Clearly there were issues with the construction; however it does seem to be reasonably well utilised - certainly looked that way whenever I saw one between Fri/Sun.

I'm waiting until the novelty factor has worn off to see how much of a success it really is.

I think September and October will be the most interesting months in terms of usage, and it'll definitely be interesting to see how many people are using it in the middle of winter.

 

[mbonwick]

At least the trams should provide a reasonably quick journey in from Ingliston Park and Ride, unlike the buses last time I visited...

 

[theageofthetra]

Just out of interest are the idiots who signed the procurement without a/c & didn't specify enough opening windows still in their jobs?

 

[edwin_m]

The Croydon Variotrams are air-conditioned as are the existing and new Nottingham fleets and the new Midland Metro fleet which is based on the same CAF Urbos design as Edinburgh.

 

[khib70]

Just out of interest are the idiots who signed the procurement without a/c & didn't specify enough opening windows still in their jobs?

Much of the procurement was done through TIE - an arms length council body which was abolished in 2011 after a long history of disputes with contractors, botched preparatory work and general incompetence. There is to be an inquiry into the whole process, especially the staggering cost overruns. If conducted properly, it will be very interesting, and also very scary for certain people connected with TIE and the council.

So, some of them are still in their jobs, but as we say in these parts "their jaikits are on a shoogly nail"

 

[GaryMcEwan]

Much of the procurement was done through TIE - an arms length council body which was abolished in 2011 after a long history of disputes with contractors, botched preparatory work and general incompetence. There is to be an inquiry into the whole process, especially the staggering cost overruns. If conducted properly, it will be very interesting, and also very scary for certain people connected with TIE and the council.

So, some of them are still in their jobs, but as we say in these parts "their jaikits are on a shoogly nail"

It's certainly going to be interesting, I'm surprised the rest of them who still have a job haven't been hoofed out along with the rest of them. I think if Margo MacDonald was still alive, she would be causing all sorts of headaches for the Council and most certainly at the forefront of the enquiry...

 

[kylemore]

I remember the birth of TIE, my colleagues and I were turfed out of our tiny restroom in "Market Street" to make way for the first two (lowly) TIE functionaries, eventually the TIE Empire expanded to having their own vast Offices I think at the west end.
The more astute useless characters in the Edinburgh Council Public Transport Unit saw their chance and "left" the council to work for TIE on vastly inflated salaries and bonus schemes (to attract the right staff of course) no doubt retaining all their council pension rights. I knew some of them - they made an absolute arse of CERT (remember that mess?) and I had not the slightest doubt they would make a mess of the TRAMS, but even cynical old me was staggered by the level of incompetence - WORLD CLASS incompetence shown by these idiots!
I hope they get their comeuppence but I doubt it - these people never do.

 

[khib70]

It's certainly going to be interesting, I'm surprised the rest of them who still have a job haven't been hoofed out along with the rest of them. I think if Margo MacDonald was still alive, she would be causing all sorts of headaches for the Council and most certainly at the forefront of the enquiry...

I remember the birth of TIE, my colleagues and I were turfed out of our tiny restroom in "Market Street" to make way for the first two (lowly) TIE functionaries, eventually the TIE Empire expanded to having their own vast Offices I think at the west end.
The more astute useless characters in the Edinburgh Council Public Transport Unit saw their chance and "left" the council to work for TIE on vastly inflated salaries and bonus schemes (to attract the right staff of course) no doubt retaining all their council pension rights. I knew some of them - they made an absolute arse of CERT (remember that mess?) and I had not the slightest doubt they would make a mess of the TRAMS, but even cynical old me was staggered by the level of incompetence - WORLD CLASS incompetence shown by these idiots!
I hope they get their comeuppence but I doubt it - these people never do.

...and this is why it's not acceptable to say "they're here now, get over it". The whole TIE episode needs thorough investigation, if only to find out how the individuals concerned were ever thought remotely capable of delivering a major transport project. There has been massive and costly incompetence on the part of public officials, and a scandalous lack of oversight by elected members. And that's at the very least.

In the unlikely event of any extension of the so-called "network" nobody even remotely associated with the fiasco which created the York Place stub should be allowed anywhere near it.

And the CERT guided busway. :roll: An utter waste of money which achieved nothing except allowing passengers the sensation of travelling over a badly ploughed field.

 

[edwin_m]

I'd agree that a full and open enquiry is necessary and I hope the one that has been called proves to be so. The Edinburgh fiasco is damaging the cause of light rail in other cities, whereas a lot of the problems seem to be general poor management/delivery of construction work rather than because it is a tram as such (see also: Cambridgeshire busway).

 

[kylemore]

And the CERT guided busway. :roll: An utter waste of money which achieved nothing except allowing passengers the sensation of travelling over a badly ploughed field.

You're talking about the tiny bit they built anyway after the complete CERT scheme collapsed, the bit from Stenhouse to Broomhouse that was easiest to build.

The complete scheme had a guided busway more or less on the route of the new Tramway right to the Airport although in the city centre it was going to take over the west approach road to reach Lothian Rd and Princes St.

They assembled a consortium including First Group and I believe MacAlpines to construct and operate it however they had forgotten to factor in that LRT as it then was was politically independent. After council assurances to the consortium that they had the situation in hand LRT made it clear that they would intensively compete with the busway and First seeing their easy profits evaporating pulled out thereby collapsing the scheme after Millions had been spent

Included in this spending was compulsory purchase of the Grant Westfield factory on the line of route, the Factory owners fought tooth and nail and eventually got an amazing deal involving getting extremely generous compensation and the council building them a new factory. It was then discovered even before the scheme collapsed that construction of the busway didn't have to involve the factory site at all!

To save face the Council Public Transport Unit insisted on building the easy section along the fields at Broomhouse (kept clear for another earlier aborted scheme to build a dual carraigeway into the city centre) which LRT was then happy to use free of charge although it was theoretically available to any bus operator with suitably altered vehicles.

Having driven buses along it I can confirm that it was falling apart just before closure for conversion to Tramway with the concrete steering wheel guide sections visibly crumbling and would have had to have been rebuilt anyway - closure saved them from that scandal!

 

[theageofthetra]

So basically its classic public sector. Total incompetence leading to wasted taxpayers money & rewarded by still being in a job with taxpayer subsided final salary pension scheme. What do you have to do to get fired from senior public sector jobs?

 

[Starmill]

The Croydon Variotrams are air-conditioned as are the existing and new Nottingham fleets and the new Midland Metro fleet which is based on the same CAF Urbos design as Edinburgh.

I see, thank you! The only one of those that surprises me is the Nottingham existing fleet.

I do feel as though it's an omission to an M5000 if I'm honest. They have air, but not the conditioning... I wonder if they have all of the ducts and space for air con units such that it might one day be retrofitted. All of the cabs have air con.

 

[Deerfold]

So basically its classic public sector. Total incompetence leading to wasted taxpayers money & rewarded by still being in a job with taxpayer subsided final salary pension scheme. What do you have to do to get fired from senior public sector jobs?

That's something of a generalisation.

I work for a public sector organisation. I know of several people who were fired (as well as many more recently who have been made redundant) - although none of these were in senior posts.

Of course you never hear of incompetence or ridiculous payments in the private sector - banks, TOCS, utility companies...

 

[theageofthetra]

Hence my comment on SENIOR posts . In the private sector senior management normally get fired for incompetence, in the public they get moved sideways whilst still being paid for by the taxpayer with full subsidised pensions.

 

[stut]

Hence my comment on SENIOR posts . In the private sector senior management normally get fired for incompetence, in the public they get moved sideways whilst still being paid for by the taxpayer with full subsidised pensions.

Or rather, in the private sector, they resign once they realise where things are going, get a remarkable severance payment, and then join another, similar company to do exactly the same thing. Trebles all round!

The public sector is not the sole preserve of such things - there's a boys' club at the top of plenty of industries. And who pays for them? Well, everybody, really - the people who have seen costs of services shoot up, and the workers who have seen their salaries go down following privatisation.

Look at the JLE for an example of how the public sector can work well. And then look at the many faces of Capita to see how the private sector can go wrong. Incompetence crosses industry sectors remarkably effectively

 

[theageofthetra]

Fair point re the boys club!

 

[Blindtraveler]

how to get fired from a top paid public sector post - A quick step guide:

1. Having slept your way round the people that matter to get you where you are now, stop doing it.
2. Stop hosting and attending expense account dinners, cocktail partys, golf days etc. Your withdrawal from/snubbing of such events plus the removal of services as mentioned above will most definately anoy those who matter and along with a slump in reliabilitty and a bit of well planned back stabbing should have the desired effect.
3. If niether of the above work, take the Wife/Husband/attractive Son/Daughter of the most senior person in the department on a whirlwind romantic break, leaving your laptop, external hard drive and all there accompanying work secrets in the loungecar of the 23:40 Edinburgh>Euston as you flee to temperary safety over the English Border. *sorry for off topic but hopefully entertaining post*

 

[Deerfold]

how to get fired from a top paid public sector post - A quick step guide:

1. Having slept your way round the people that matter to get you where you are now, stop doing it.
2. Stop hosting and attending expense account dinners, cocktail partys, golf days etc. Your withdrawal from/snubbing of such events plus the removal of services as mentioned above will most definately anoy those who matter and along with a slump in reliabilitty and a bit of well planned back stabbing should have the desired effect.
3. If niether of the above work, take the Wife/Husband/attractive Son/Daughter of the most senior person in the department on a whirlwind romantic break, leaving your laptop, external hard drive and all there accompanying work secrets in the loungecar of the 23:40 Edinburgh>Euston as you flee to temperary safety over the English Border. *sorry for off topic but hopefully entertaining post*

Note: There is no guarantee that even this will work.

I made a slight adjustment to your post too...

 

[Blindtraveler]

With thanks