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Edinburgh Tram developments

NotATrainspott

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Redeveloping Central Garage isn't necessarily an economic slam-dunk. It is useful to have a depot near the city centre so that buses and drivers can start and end their shifts in the city centre too. Forcing all the buses out to somewhere else, presumably on or near the bypass, means adding on a lot of dead mileage. You'd trade a short-term capital infusion for permanent reductions in bus operating efficiency.

It's worth noting that the Marine Garage site may well be redeveloped as part of the plans for the Seafield promenade. I don't know where they'd put the buses instead but at the very least this site is already less central.
 
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Perthsaint

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Maybe so.

However there are ways round that and I'm sure that there will be people looking at ways so to do.

I suspect that LB and their owners, both under extreme financial pressure in these inflationary times, would relish realising the value of this asset.

A bit O/T I suppose - but then again maybe not - as part of the PR the Council could claim that part of the sum raised would be allocated to Public Transport including further extension of the Trams.
CEC (as planning authority) giving CEC (as building owner) permission to demolish or greatly alter a B listed building would rightly kick up such a fuss that it wouldn't be worth it for them. Bear in mind that current administration is a minority one.
 
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CEC (as planning authority) giving CEC (as building owner) permission to demolish or greatly alter a B listed building would rightly kick up such a fuss that it wouldn't be worth it for them. Bear in mind that current administration is a minority one.
Is the Annandale Street property a council asset? Pretty sure the council owns the bus station in St Andrew Square but I didn't think that would be the position with the Lothian Buses depots.
But you'd like to think at least some trams could be stabled on the route's eastern side to allow a degree of route coverage if there's a problem arising at a particular location, especially if it occurs overnight when every tram is at Gogar.
 

kylemore

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Redeveloping Central Garage isn't necessarily an economic slam-dunk. It is useful to have a depot near the city centre so that buses and drivers can start and end their shifts in the city centre too. Forcing all the buses out to somewhere else, presumably on or near the bypass, means adding on a lot of dead mileage. You'd trade a short-term capital infusion for permanent reductions in bus operating efficiency.

It's worth noting that the Marine Garage site may well be redeveloped as part of the plans for the Seafield promenade. I don't know where they'd put the buses instead but at the very least this site is already less central.
There would certainly be an increase in light mileage to start with - I remember that was the case when Eastern shut New Street, however as new patterns of working developed to suit the new set up that would lessen over time - I suppose it would depend on whether the financial gain was enough to offset any short or medium term disruption.
 

kylemore

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You also have to consider where the crew are likely to live.
True, although LB pay is good by industry standards many are likely to be able to only afford suburban and outer suburban property if they wish to have a reasonable 2 or 3 bed family house. A central Edinburgh 3 bed property of good standard will be beyond the income of an average bus driver. Also the shift patterns more or less dictate car ownership - owning a car in central Edinburgh is increasingly a nightmare and likely to get worse.
 

Mal

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Watching a video of the tram between Haymarket to Murrayfield, I notice what seems to be a break in the trackbed after Haymarket sidings where points could come in from Roseburn area, but aiming toward Murrayfield! Does anyone have any idea why this has been done?
 
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FlybeDash8Q400

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Watching a video of the tram between Haymarket to Murrayfield, I notice what seems to be a break in the trackbed after Haymarket sidings where points could come in from Roseburn area, but aiming toward Murrayfield! Does anyone have any idea why this has been done?
It’s future proofing for if the route to Granton is built.
 

A330Alex

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I was thinking that. but it seems to be facing the wrong direction unless trams go to Murrayfield from Granton!
Ultimately it makes sense to enable both Granton-City and Granton-Airport, even if it just makes getting to the depot easier.

Google Maps satellite imagery makes it clearer, that section would have been much more extensive to retrofit in future since it’s part of the bridge over Russell Road.
 

Mal

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Ultimately it makes sense to enable both Granton-City and Granton-Airport, even if it just makes getting to the depot easier.

Google Maps satellite imagery makes it clearer, that section would have been much more extensive to retrofit in future since it’s part of the bridge over Russell Road.
Thanks for that. Now I have looked at Google maps that really clears things up for me.
 

Mal

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I notice on a Youtube video some trams have tramboards at the bottom of the drivers window showing the destination. Is this a new standard thing as the (old style) tramboards were there just for supplementary route info.
 
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Taunton

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It's been a while since I was on The Tram, but a recent trip just compounded the poor feeling.

Having specifically chosen a hotel that was at the top of Leith Walk to be close to the York Place terminus, and as I was driven in having noticed the tram waiting there, it was annoying to find that, presumably as part of the extension works, although the vehicles are running there to reverse as normal, the stop itself has been closed and you have to walk (and it's not two minutes) all the way to St Andrew Square to catch it, the trams running the last bit to and fro empty. It wasn't at all apparent why the works, which on Google Maps seemed well under way in 2019, have led to this silly situation.

One thing changed from earlier times is that the tram is not waiting for time all along the way as it used to, and the journey to the airport was thus quicker.

The seating is appalling. They have even beaten Pendolinos for the stupidity of putting seats against sidewalls and large luggage racks against the main windows. Furthermore, the adjacent seats face away from the luggage racks, which people nowadays are just not going to accept. What with half the fixed seats facing reverse, and all the articulation connections along the length, there are hardly any seats left which give a pleasant ride. I suppose it's just as well that Croydon, after looking at buying the surplus ones secondhand, rejected them.

Showing a colleague how to use the ticket machine at the terminus led to the tram right in front of our noses closing up and going.

Each car has a conductor, who can't sell anything but is just a ticket checker. However, on arrival at the airport there was an aggressive (they were) line of three staff to check the (maybe 20) passengers' tickets. None of the passengers seemed prepared for this, airport passengers being by definition not daily riders. I asked if this was a spot check or full time, and was told full time at the airport. So it's not at all clear, apart from being a Job Creation Project, why each tram needs both a conductor to check tickets AND ticket checkers at the end of the line to check them again.
 
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InOban

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The York Place situation is unfortunate but essential. The previous tram stop was on the single track where the trams reversed. It had to be removed to lay the additional track for the extension.

As for the additional ticket checks, I'm wondering whether there's been an issue with passengers buying a standard ticket, valid as far as Ingliston P&R, and then staying on board to the airport, the last stop having a premium fare.
 

Struner

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The seating is appalling. They have even beaten Pendolinos for the stupidity of putting seats against sidewalls and large luggage racks against the main windows. Furthermore, the adjacent seats face away from the luggage racks, which people nowadays are just not going to accept. What with half the fixed seats facing reverse, and all the articulation connections along the length, there are hardly any seats left which give a pleasant ride. I suppose it's just as well that
Croydon, after looking at buying the surplus ones secondhand,

Has the seating been changed after your first visit?
 

Vespa

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I will be visiting at the end of September to see what the tram is like, I have been reading the posts regarding the tram developments, I hope it will be a good experience.
 
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The seating is appalling. They have even beaten Pendolinos for the stupidity of putting seats against sidewalls and large luggage racks against the main windows. Furthermore, the adjacent seats face away from the luggage racks, which people nowadays are just not going to accept. What with half the fixed seats facing reverse, and all the articulation connections along the length, there are hardly any seats left which give a pleasant ride.
The seating density efficiency on the trams is really poor, Wikipedia says there are about 80 seats per 40 meter tram, and you get about 40 seats in a 10-meter single-deck urban bus (I've used the GB Hawk here just because it was the first one I found on Wikipedia). So if the tram had the same seating density as your standard single-deck bus it would have double the number of seats it has currently.
A lot of space is taken up with door vestibules, luggage racks and setbacks from the articulated sections.
One of the reasons I very rarely use the tram is because on the occasions I have, during the day I've mostly never got a seat.

While I'm posting anyway, was any consideration given during initial planning into making the off-street section automated à la the DLR? It would have reduced the staffing requirement from two to one on the Airport to Haymarket Yards section.
 

takno

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The seating density efficiency on the trams is really poor, Wikipedia says there are about 80 seats per 40 meter tram, and you get about 40 seats in a 10-meter single-deck urban bus (I've used the GB Hawk here just because it was the first one I found on Wikipedia). So if the tram had the same seating density as your standard single-deck bus it would have double the number of seats it has currently.
A lot of space is taken up with door vestibules, luggage racks and setbacks from the articulated sections.
One of the reasons I very rarely use the tram is because on the occasions I have, during the day I've mostly never got a seat.

While I'm posting anyway, was any consideration given during initial planning into making the off-street section automated à la the DLR? It would have reduced the staffing requirement from two to one on the Airport to Haymarket Yards section.
I'm not a fan of them, and combined with the "strangling with cycle lanes" policy the council seems to be applying to the buses I think we're going to be in a really bad place in 5 years or so. The lack of seats combined with the lack of resilience when the line is closed, and a fundamentally smaller number of stops means that the trams can't even begin to compete on a quality of service level. People who don't have to use them regularly are absolute suckers for them through, so I guess it's just the way the world is going.
 

FlybeDash8Q400

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I'm not a fan of them, and combined with the "strangling with cycle lanes" policy the council seems to be applying to the buses I think we're going to be in a really bad place in 5 years or so. The lack of seats combined with the lack of resilience when the line is closed, and a fundamentally smaller number of stops means that the trams can't even begin to compete on a quality of service level. People who don't have to use them regularly are absolute suckers for them through, so I guess it's just the way the world is going.
I think the problem is Edinburgh’s trams are for some reason much longer individual units than other cities, thus less stops are possible.

In my opinion they need a mid life refurb pretty soon, ideally before the extension opens.
 

NotATrainspott

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The seating density efficiency on the trams is really poor, Wikipedia says there are about 80 seats per 40 meter tram, and you get about 40 seats in a 10-meter single-deck urban bus (I've used the GB Hawk here just because it was the first one I found on Wikipedia). So if the tram had the same seating density as your standard single-deck bus it would have double the number of seats it has currently.
A lot of space is taken up with door vestibules, luggage racks and setbacks from the articulated sections.
One of the reasons I very rarely use the tram is because on the occasions I have, during the day I've mostly never got a seat.

While I'm posting anyway, was any consideration given during initial planning into making the off-street section automated à la the DLR? It would have reduced the staffing requirement from two to one on the Airport to Haymarket Yards section.

Why would that be helpful? The DLR can only be driverless because the whole thing is in a controlled environment. There are level crossings along the route to the Airport, and the fields near Ingliston will fill up with new developments and reduce the isolation of the tram.

Seats aren't the be-all and end-all of public transport. Sufficiently frequent and fast public transport does not need to provide seats for the majority of passengers. The trams are designed to be packed full of people standing and still have short dwell times, quite unlike double decker buses.
 

waverley47

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The seating density efficiency on the trams is really poor, Wikipedia says there are about 80 seats per 40 meter tram, and you get about 40 seats in a 10-meter single-deck urban bus (I've used the GB Hawk here just because it was the first one I found on Wikipedia). So if the tram had the same seating density as your standard single-deck bus it would have double the number of seats it has currently.
This is disingenuous to the utmost.

It has a pushchair spot, a wheelchair spot, and a luggage rack, same as a double decker bus. A tram has built-in level boarding, no worrying about ramps.

It has about twice the capacity, seated and standing, as a double decker bus (250 vs120)

It has six sets of doors. That's a lot more than a bus. A crush loaded tram can unload and load in under a minute. That's significantly less than a bus.

All this means you're serving more people, stopping for less time, and you have more level boarding than a bus.

Trams aren't about comfort. If you want comfort, take a taxi. They're about getting the largest number of people from A to B as possible, as quickly as possible, with as much capacity as possible.

They're good for getting people with heavy luggage to the city centre and, soon, to Leith. That's much better than a bus, as each person with heavy luggage takes 30 seconds at least to stow or retrieve their luggage, at each end.

They have their own route which actually serves a lot of quite busy traffic pulls. Edinburgh Park, the Airport and Murrayfield all have a lot of passengers for different reasons. If you go on a tram at rush hour, they soak up passengers in a way that busses simply don't. Everyone on the same tram, no faffing around waiting for 'your' bus.

When they go to Leith, it will be the same.

It's actually a lot better to have trams once you have more than 20 busses per hour in each direction on a single corridor, as you lose capacity by shoving more busses down a road. They clog up eachother and they start to slow down waiting for eachother and other road users.

At peak times now, there's a tram every 6 minutes. In peak times after the Leith extension opens, that frequency is going up.

The trams, as I said, are not for comfort. They were built for a purpose, and they have, and will continue to, serve that purpose very well: improving capacity on incredibly busy bus routes.

While I'm posting anyway, was any consideration given during initial planning into making the off-street section automated à la the DLR? It would have reduced the staffing requirement from two to one on the Airport to Haymarket Yards section.

Not worth it with trams. It's not like the DLR, which has precisely 0 grade crossings with any other traffic, passenger or otherwise. It crosses roads and footpaths, and it's actually an incredibly difficult thing to have an automated system at one end, and manual at the other.

You'd still need a driver in the cab anyway, unless you wanted to build a completely new, completely grade separated from all other vehicles and pedestrians, tube line.

I'm not a fan of them, and combined with the "strangling with cycle lanes" policy the council seems to be applying to the buses I think we're going to be in a really bad place in 5 years or so. The lack of seats combined with the lack of resilience when the line is closed, and a fundamentally smaller number of stops means that the trams can't even begin to compete on a quality of service level. People who don't have to use them regularly are absolute suckers for them through, so I guess it's just the way the world is going.

The cycle lanes thing is a bit difficult. The city is building new segregated cycleways on most main routes, or parallel routes, anyway. I'd prefer to cycle in a segregated route, even if it's longer.

I use the trams pretty regularly, and I'll continue to do so. Sure, the trams don't serve all of Edinburgh, but they're not busses, and they're not meant to. They serve a specific purpose, on a specific route.

Additionally, I cannot recall a problem lasting longer than a few hours that was caused by the trams or tram infrastructure. Most problems have been caused by road traffic getting in the way. This is admittedly a problem with street running, and tramways in general vs things like metro, but it's a problem yet to be solved.

I think the problem is Edinburgh’s trams are for some reason much longer individual units than other cities, thus less stops are possible.

In my opinion they need a mid life refurb pretty soon, ideally before the extension opens.

The trams, as I said, are about serving big flows of traffic to specific locations, along already busy bus corridors. They have stops in the city about half as often as busses; stops are about twice as far apart.

Stopping a tram as frequently as you would a bus is madness, as you'd lose out capacity and journey times. If your distance between stops is set by infrastructure and capacity, then having longer vehicles just means you get to serve more people at each stop.
 

takno

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This is disingenuous to the utmost.

It has a pushchair spot, a wheelchair spot, and a luggage rack, same as a double decker bus. A tram has built-in level boarding, no worrying about ramps.

It has about twice the capacity, seated and standing, as a double decker bus (250 vs120)

It has six sets of doors. That's a lot more than a bus. A crush loaded tram can unload and load in under a minute. That's significantly less than a bus.

All this means you're serving more people, stopping for less time, and you have more level boarding than a bus.

Trams aren't about comfort. If you want comfort, take a taxi. They're about getting the largest number of people from A to B as possible, as quickly as possible, with as much capacity as possible.

They're good for getting people with heavy luggage to the city centre and, soon, to Leith. That's much better than a bus, as each person with heavy luggage takes 30 seconds at least to stow or retrieve their luggage, at each end.

They have their own route which actually serves a lot of quite busy traffic pulls. Edinburgh Park, the Airport and Murrayfield all have a lot of passengers for different reasons. If you go on a tram at rush hour, they soak up passengers in a way that busses simply don't. Everyone on the same tram, no faffing around waiting for 'your' bus.

When they go to Leith, it will be the same.

It's actually a lot better to have trams once you have more than 20 busses per hour in each direction on a single corridor, as you lose capacity by shoving more busses down a road. They clog up eachother and they start to slow down waiting for eachother and other road users.

At peak times now, there's a tram every 6 minutes. In peak times after the Leith extension opens, that frequency is going up.

The trams, as I said, are not for comfort. They were built for a purpose, and they have, and will continue to, serve that purpose very well: improving capacity on incredibly busy bus routes.



Not worth it with trams. It's not like the DLR, which has precisely 0 grade crossings with any other traffic, passenger or otherwise. It crosses roads and footpaths, and it's actually an incredibly difficult thing to have an automated system at one end, and manual at the other.

You'd still need a driver in the cab anyway, unless you wanted to build a completely new, completely grade separated from all other vehicles and pedestrians, tube line.



The cycle lanes thing is a bit difficult. The city is building new segregated cycleways on most main routes, or parallel routes, anyway. I'd prefer to cycle in a segregated route, even if it's longer.

I use the trams pretty regularly, and I'll continue to do so. Sure, the trams don't serve all of Edinburgh, but they're not busses, and they're not meant to. They serve a specific purpose, on a specific route.

Additionally, I cannot recall a problem lasting longer than a few hours that was caused by the trams or tram infrastructure. Most problems have been caused by road traffic getting in the way. This is admittedly a problem with street running, and tramways in general vs things like metro, but it's a problem yet to be solved.



The trams, as I said, are about serving big flows of traffic to specific locations, along already busy bus corridors. They have stops in the city about half as often as busses; stops are about twice as far apart.

Stopping a tram as frequently as you would a bus is madness, as you'd lose out capacity and journey times. If your distance between stops is set by infrastructure and capacity, then having longer vehicles just means you get to serve more people at each stop.
So basically it's a heavy uncomfortable expensive bus, that can't get to the airport as quickly, leaves most of its passengers standing and "replaces" more than 20 buses an hour with, for a lot of passengers, 2 changes involving spending 5 minutes or more in the cold, and a long uncomfortable segment in the middle. Progress is a funny thing
 

waverley47

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So basically it's a heavy uncomfortable expensive bus, that can't get to the airport as quickly, leaves most of its passengers standing and "replaces" more than 20 buses an hour with, for a lot of passengers, 2 changes involving spending 5 minutes or more in the cold, and a long uncomfortable segment in the middle. Progress is a funny thing

It's a heavy and expensive vehicle. That's true, otherwise we would have them everywhere.

It gets to the airport about as quickly as the bus, serving more people on the way. There's about five minutes in it most of the day; Corstorphine Road is one of the busiest roads in the city, and it has traffic lights all the way down it.

You don't replace busses, you move busses onto routes that have fewer passengers, and a reduced frequency. None of the bus routes down Leith Walk will go, instead frequency will be moved to better serve areas that don't have the tram.

Trams supplement busy end to end routes. Very few people make the full journey along any bus route. Very few will use the full journey of the trams. Instead, many people will now find their daily commute from Leith into town, or indeed vice versa, as there's a lot of traffic down to the shore, will have more space.

There will be less queuing for busses, and an easier ride into town. For every person that makes one trip every year from Leith to the Airport, there are thousands that make a daily trip from Leith into the city centre. And all those journeys will get marginally faster, with significantly increased capacity, with less impact onto other road users.

Some people will still choose to take a direct bus. As I said, none of the bus routes down the walk are going. I don't dispute that the tram line cannot serve everyone, or everywhere, all at once. But it can serve a significant portion of them better than busses.

Also, unless you're going to the airport, the tram is still the same price as the bus.
 

takno

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It's a heavy and expensive vehicle. That's true, otherwise we would have them everywhere.

It gets to the airport about as quickly as the bus, serving more people on the way. There's about five minutes in it most of the day; Corstorphine Road is one of the busiest roads in the city, and it has traffic lights all the way down it.

You don't replace busses, you move busses onto routes that have fewer passengers, and a reduced frequency. None of the bus routes down Leith Walk will go, instead frequency will be moved to better serve areas that don't have the tram.

Trams supplement busy end to end routes. Very few people make the full journey along any bus route. Very few will use the full journey of the trams. Instead, many people will now find their daily commute from Leith into town, or indeed vice versa, as there's a lot of traffic down to the shore, will have more space.

There will be less queuing for busses, and an easier ride into town. For every person that makes one trip every year from Leith to the Airport, there are thousands that make a daily trip from Leith into the city centre. And all those journeys will get marginally faster, with significantly increased capacity, with less impact onto other road users.

Some people will still choose to take a direct bus. As I said, none of the bus routes down the walk are going. I don't dispute that the tram line cannot serve everyone, or everywhere, all at once. But it can serve a significant portion of them better than busses.

Also, unless you're going to the airport, the tram is still the same price as the bus.
It's closer to 10 minutes faster and a quid cheaper on the bus going to the airport. Meanwhile, much as the current claim is that none of the walk buses are going, I do notice that the passengers from Ratho Station were absolutely screwed by the original trams, and I can well see the situation changing as things carry on. Certainly if the extension down the bridges happens I can see a lot of the Midlothian routes being terminated at Cammy toll. Once the dream of buses not going down princes street is realised most people will also not be able to get where they want to go in town (or on the other side) without changing.

Even if you're a pushchair or wheelchair, the halving of the number of stops and the location of them in the middle of the road may well outweigh any benefits compared to a bus
 

FlybeDash8Q400

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It's a heavy and expensive vehicle. That's true, otherwise we would have them everywhere.

It gets to the airport about as quickly as the bus, serving more people on the way. There's about five minutes in it most of the day; Corstorphine Road is one of the busiest roads in the city, and it has traffic lights all the way down it.

You don't replace busses, you move busses onto routes that have fewer passengers, and a reduced frequency. None of the bus routes down Leith Walk will go, instead frequency will be moved to better serve areas that don't have the tram.

Trams supplement busy end to end routes. Very few people make the full journey along any bus route. Very few will use the full journey of the trams. Instead, many people will now find their daily commute from Leith into town, or indeed vice versa, as there's a lot of traffic down to the shore, will have more space.

There will be less queuing for busses, and an easier ride into town. For every person that makes one trip every year from Leith to the Airport, there are thousands that make a daily trip from Leith into the city centre. And all those journeys will get marginally faster, with significantly increased capacity, with less impact onto other road users.

Some people will still choose to take a direct bus. As I said, none of the bus routes down the walk are going. I don't dispute that the tram line cannot serve everyone, or everywhere, all at once. But it can serve a significant portion of them better than busses.

Also, unless you're going to the airport, the tram is still the same price as the bus.
Leith Walk has already permanently lost three bus services now, and more reductions are likely to follow. The 10 in most part and the 12 and 22 have all gone to make way for the trams. The 34 has also been rerouted away from the main part of Leith in the last few weeks to pick up part of the lost links from before. A few other services have also had their frequency reduced as well. It’s also slower to the Airport than the Airlink is yet it’s the same price, doesn’t run 24/7, you 9 times out of 10 have to stand for part or all of your journey and there’s hardly any ability to run a good service if something goes wrong. Yes the trams have level boarding but they don’t exactly stop at the most prominent parts of the individual streets they stop on in the city centre compared to the buses, which I would say the former is beneficial, the latter not so much.

The city I think has spent over £1bn on these now, that is an obscene amount of money for what we’ve got, which is only around half of the original plan. So in effect it’s cost 4-5 times what it was meant to (it should’ve cost £400-500m for the whole original plan which was twice the size). It’s barely made any money back at all, and will take decades before it has paid back its costs. Not to mention it is more than a decade behind schedule now. This full line between the Airport and Newhaven that is due to open next year should’ve opened in 2011, only 12 years later than originally planned. I’ll probably be in my 30’s by the time the next phase after that opens, which will be into the next decade maybe? I think that was meant to open by 2012/13. God knows how old I’ll be if and when Phase 3 opens!

I’d rather smaller trams that served more areas, had more stops and ran more frequently, a bit like what Manchester has, or as many have suggested just kept the perfectly fine bus network. It was a vanity project from day one and to this day still is, along with the councils many other vanity projects such as Spaces for People.

Lothian Buses are there to make money, not to serve everywhere they can I’m afraid. By moving buses to smaller areas it reduces the company’s profit levels thus actually harming the council’s budget as the dividends they can take are lower.

I really feel for the businesses and people of the city, and especially of Leith. Most of the city didn’t want it, and now they’re stuck with it.
 
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You'd still need a driver in the cab anyway, unless you wanted to build a completely new, completely grade separated from all other vehicles and pedestrians, tube line.
That's what I mean though, it could have been planned like that from the start.
 

FlybeDash8Q400

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That's what I mean though, it could have been planned like that from the start.
Edinburgh Tube, I actually like the sound of that. Sadly Edinburgh’s rock isn’t set up for that. I think it was something that was looked at back in the day but it was too difficult to build.

For me, the trams were and still are a waste of money. They should’ve stuck with EARL (Edinburgh Airport Rail Link), and looked to expand the bus network to work alongside something like Berlin has got with the S-Bahn, possibly implementing some kind of Metro rail network.
 

Taunton

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Seats aren't the be-all and end-all of public transport.
Actually ... they are, and the belief otherwise by rail management is one of the things they just lose it on. Ask people who are daily commuters about their journey, and one of the first things that comes up is "getting a seat". Travelling when swinging round a pole is a real distress purchase.
 

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