Edinburgh Tram developments

[Chiltern006]

Feel like this is probably asked to death, but why is it so much more to go to the Airport, I would expect a slight surcharge but not £7.50!!

 

[Timster83]

Feel like this is probably asked to death, but why is it so much more to go to the Airport, I would expect a slight surcharge but not £7.50!!

Well, there's a captive audience and £7.50 probably compares well against the cost of travelling from other European airports to the city centre by light rail or train.

The price will be based on what the market will bear, rather than the proportional incremental cost of the mileage between the airport and Ingliston P&R.

 

[enginedin]

Well, there's a captive audience and £7.50 probably compares well against the cost of travelling from other European airports to the city centre by light rail or train.

This isn't quite correct. The airport charge for all public transport to its terminal building - the airport bus is a similar markup, although you can use it as a normal bus elsewhere on its route and pay the normal Lothian Bus ticket prices, and there's a single taxi company who have the contract with the airport to be able to pick unbooked passengers up at the terminal. Neither Lothian Buses, Edinburgh Trams, nor the taxi companies actually pocket any of the extra money.

It doesn't have to be like this - local buses to Liverpool Airport are within the normal fare zone, and there is no premium for going to the airport. I wish every airport was like this...

I've actually been to focus groups with Edinburgh City Council about active lifestyles and the issue of the expense of getting to the airport has been raised... (in the context of reducing car use, but the airport are disincentivising public transport)

 

[DynamicSpirit]

This isn't quite correct. The airport charge for all public transport to its terminal building - the airport bus is a similar markup, although you can use it as a normal bus elsewhere on its route and pay the normal Lothian Bus ticket prices, and there's a single taxi company who have the contract with the airport to be able to pick unbooked passengers up at the terminal. Neither Lothian Buses, Edinburgh Trams, nor the taxi companies actually pocket any of the extra money.

Agreed that seems a bit unusual for ALL public transport to have that kind of markup. In my experience, even where direct trains (or whatever the premium public transport service is) have a significant markup in price, there'll be something else without the markup (Obvious example: Heathrow, where you pay a premium for Crossrail/HEX but can easily avoid that by using the Piccadilly Jubilee line or local buses).

I've actually been to focus groups with Edinburgh City Council about active lifestyles and the issue of the expense of getting to the airport has been raised... (in the context of reducing car use, but the airport are disincentivising public transport)

I guess whether they are disincentivising public transport depends on whether they charge a similar markup for people arriving by car. Do they?

(EDITED To fix Jubilee typo)

 

[Avenger20]

Agreed that seems a bit unusual for ALL public transport to have that kind of markup. In my experience, even where direct trains (or whatever the premium public transport service is) have a significant markup in price, there'll be something else without the markup (Obvious example: Heathrow, where you pay a premium for Crossrail/HEX but can easily avoid that by using the Jubilee line or local buses).



I guess whether they are disincentivising public transport depends on whether they charge a similar markup for people arriving by car. Do they?

Pedant mode activated and majorly off topic...

You'd struggle getting the Jubilee line to Heathrow if I'm honest. Try the Piccadilly instead .

 

[VioletEclipse]

The Scotsman has an article 8th Nov 2024 "Concrete cracks found in 75 places along Edinburgh tram line extension to Newhaven". Link is
https://www.scotsman.com/news/trans...oncrete-cracks-4857736#disqus-comment-section

I'll try an include some of the article and avoid the adverts all over the place.






View attachment 169131

Are these fairly routine issues which aren't all too uncommon on street runnning tram systems and are being blown out of proportion, or are these issues actually quite severe?

 

[Butts]

Feel like this is probably asked to death, but why is it so much more to go to the Airport, I would expect a slight surcharge but not £7.50!!

It's only £5.50 surcharge actually - a veritable bargain !!

Walk down from the P&R if you are lightly loaded and it's £2 from anywhere.

Luckily I have a "Coffin Dodgers Pass" so use the many Bus Options for free.

It is annoying CD's resident in Edinburgh can use the Tram for Free but no outsiders !!

 

[enginedin]

Walk down from the P&R if you are lightly loaded and it's £2 from anywhere.

Yes, I meant to say that this is what I normally do - there is a sign at the P&R which says "no walking route to the airport", but everyone ignores it

the premium public transport service

I did an experiment at Bordeaux this year - I flew there with a few friends, some of whom had booked the direct airport bus in advance. I knew the tram service is pretty good (I've used it before), and was ~20% of the cost. I got to Bordeaux Railway Station before they did..

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Yes, I meant to say that this is what I normally do - there is a sign at the P&R which says "no walking route to the airport", but everyone ignores it

Probably as it’s a blatant lie. There is a path the whole way.

 

[Steve B]

Agreed that seems a bit unusual for ALL public transport to have that kind of markup. In my experience, even where direct trains (or whatever the premium public transport service is) have a significant markup in price, there'll be something else without the markup (Obvious example: Heathrow, where you pay a premium for Crossrail/HEX but can easily avoid that by using the Jubilee line or local buses).



I guess whether they are disincentivising public transport depends on whether they charge a similar markup for people arriving by car. Do they?

I don't know Edinburgh Airport, but from experience elsewhere I expect they charge for parking... Again, based on elsewhere, I don't expect it to be cheap.

 

[Butts]

Probably as it’s a blatant lie. There is a path the whole way.

Only takes about 10-15 mins.

What happens to all those fivers EDI pockets from the Tram Company.

As an aside do you really wanted to be associated with Flybe Dash 8 Q400 flying lawn mower - Replace it with a Flybe Embraer forthwith

I don't know Edinburgh Airport, but from experience elsewhere I expect they charge for parking... Again, based on elsewhere, I don't expect it to be cheap.

There is still a free drop off area - about 10 miles from the terminal !!

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Pedant mode activated and majorly off topic...

You'd struggle getting the Jubilee line to Heathrow if I'm honest. Try the Piccadilly instead .

Oooops haha don't post when tired. Corrected, thanks!

 

[NotATrainspott]

The airport makes no money from flights at all. Ryanair doesn't care about how much it costs to get to the airport but they do very much care about how much the airport charges. Their advertised flight fares do not need to include the cost of anything other than the service they are providing.

So, the cost of running the airport is shifted onto everything else. In principle, it is possible to walk to the airport from Ingliston and then not buy anything at inflated airport prices, so it is possible to fly for nothing more than the airline fare. But, in practice, people will take public transport or use the drop-off and buy snacks and food, so the airport has a revenue stream.

When you add in all these extra costs, it becomes clear that low-cost airlines aren't really driving down fares by anywhere near as much as you'd think. Instead of spending £100 on a full fare with cabin and hold luggage, and reasonable costs at the airport, you're now paying £40 but having to spend £40 on flight upgrades and then £20 on stuff before you even get on the plane.

 

[Elwyn]

The airport makes no money from flights at all. Ryanair doesn't care about how much it costs to get to the airport but they do very much care about how much the airport charges. Their advertised flight fares do not need to include the cost of anything other than the service they are providing.

So, the cost of running the airport is shifted onto everything else. In principle, it is possible to walk to the airport from Ingliston and then not buy anything at inflated airport prices, so it is possible to fly for nothing more than the airline fare. But, in practice, people will take public transport or use the drop-off and buy snacks and food, so the airport has a revenue stream.

When you add in all these extra costs, it becomes clear that low-cost airlines aren't really driving down fares by anywhere near as much as you'd think. Instead of spending £100 on a full fare with cabin and hold luggage, and reasonable costs at the airport, you're now paying £40 but having to spend £40 on flight upgrades and then £20 on stuff before you even get on the plane.

I know the manager of a small regional airport which was eager to acquire some additional routes. Some years back Ryanair approached the airport and basically said: “If we start operating here, how much will you pay us?” So forget landing fees etc as a potential revenue stream. There are often none. Smaller airports are often expected to pay Ryanair for providing the route. So no wonder they need to raise extra revenue from other sources such as car parking, food, duty free and public transport links.

 

[eoff]

The only "development" I have noticed with the trams is a less reliable service. Based on the last three journeys a week to a few weeks apart.
Yesterday evening (around 2040?) there was a tram at the airport (out of service), Another tram came in (but we were told it was out of service). The next tram came in (out of service), the 4th one did run. The delay was not long but it is annoying, especially when at least one of the trams had Newhaven on the display.

 

[MarkyT]

The airport makes no money from flights at all. Ryanair doesn't care about how much it costs to get to the airport but they do very much care about how much the airport charges. Their advertised flight fares do not need to include the cost of anything other than the service they are providing.

So, the cost of running the airport is shifted onto everything else. In principle, it is possible to walk to the airport from Ingliston and then not buy anything at inflated airport prices, so it is possible to fly for nothing more than the airline fare. But, in practice, people will take public transport or use the drop-off and buy snacks and food, so the airport has a revenue stream.

When you add in all these extra costs, it becomes clear that low-cost airlines aren't really driving down fares by anywhere near as much as you'd think. Instead of spending £100 on a full fare with cabin and hold luggage, and reasonable costs at the airport, you're now paying £40 but having to spend £40 on flight upgrades and then £20 on stuff before you even get on the plane.

Airports are addicted to parking income which is one major reason public transport provision for ground access is often so rubbish and/or expensive. Basically airports want you to drive there and don't give a **** about broader effects of that policy in terms of traffic congestion, pollution, etc. That's everyone else's problem, not ours guv, just like most external effects of the global air industry. Hence Edinburgh has possibly the most expensive half mile public transport ride in the UK, because they don't really want you to use but like having it visible there for green washing purposes.

 

[Cloud Strife]

Some years back Ryanair approached the airport and basically said: “If we start operating here, how much will you pay us?”

Nothing much has changed, really. Ryanair are known to be willing to fly anywhere as long as it's financially worthwhile, and Ryanair are always reaching out to airports to see if there's any interest in doing a deal.

 

[signed]

I do fully agree with your point, but to play the devil advocate isn't it more the fault of the operator itself? The airport may lobby for the fares, but the rest lays on the operator. They don't usually get a cut.

On the opposite parking goes 100% to the pockets of the airport.

Airports are addicted to parking income which is one major reason public transport provision for ground access is often so rubbish and/or expensive

But, surely a part of that is because the airport takes a cut for operators to run there?

Ex. :

• Heathrow takes a £5 cut from every passenger using the Heathrow Rail tunnels. Meaning that if you do the 15min run from Hayes and Harlington on the bus instead of the train you save nearly £7 to £8 from Zone 1

And when no cut is taken, the price-gouging is very much intentional, but not by the airport, the airport doesn't care. The operator is the one implementing those.

 

[LickeyIncliner]

On the opposite parking goes 100% to the pockets of the airport.

Is that actually the case? - at Edinburgh, or at airports generally? In many places there are independent off-airport car park operations competing for longer-stay parking. Admittedly the airport will try to capture some of the revenue going to the independent operators by charging for their shuttle buses to access the terminal(s).

 

[signed]

or at airports generally?

I am talking about on-site parking, the one they label as official, off-site is a different matter

 

[Haywain]

Airports are addicted to parking income which is one major reason public transport provision for ground access is often so rubbish and/or expensive. Basically airports want you to drive there and don't give a **** about broader effects of that policy in terms of traffic congestion, pollution, etc.

It’s more that a significant percentage of airport users travel by car because they need to travel at times when rail is either at its most expensive or simply not an option, or they travel from places that are not accessible by rail or on reasonably direct routes. On top of that many travel as couples or families which mean there is a lot of luggage to deal with.

 

[MarkyT]

It’s more that a significant percentage of airport users travel by car because they need to travel at times when rail is either at its most expensive or simply not an option, or they travel from places that are not accessible by rail or on reasonably direct routes. On top of that many travel as couples or families which mean there is a lot of luggage to deal with.

That being said, airports would still rather the proportion of travellers who aren't so constrained drove instead of using other alternatives, so they can pay up all that lovely parking money. Many people also use taxis over fairly long distance to access airports.

 

[92002]

It’s more that a significant percentage of airport users travel by car because they need to travel at times when rail is either at its most expensive or simply not an option, or they travel from places that are not accessible by rail or on reasonably direct routes. On top of that many travel as couples or families which mean there is a lot of luggage to deal with.

Thay really doesn't apply at Edinburgh Airport that doesn't have a station. The nearest station is Edinburh Gateway where you change to the tram then pay the last Mile charge on the tran fare to the airport.

 

[Deerfold]

Agreed that seems a bit unusual for ALL public transport to have that kind of markup. In my experience, even where direct trains (or whatever the premium public transport service is) have a significant markup in price, there'll be something else without the markup (Obvious example: Heathrow, where you pay a premium for Crossrail/HEX but can easily avoid that by using the Piccadilly Jubilee line or local buses).



I guess whether they are disincentivising public transport depends on whether they charge a similar markup for people arriving by car. Do they?

(EDITED To fix Jubilee typo)

The Contactless or Oyster fare from London Zone 1 to Heathrow on the Piccadilly Line is £5.60 at all times of day. That's an off-peak supplement of £2, unless you cap for the day.

 

[Haywain]

Thay really doesn't apply at Edinburgh Airport that doesn't have a station.

So, that's a further disincentive to using public transport.

 

[zwk500]

So, that's a further disincentive to using public transport.

It does have a tram stop less than 150m walk from the terminal entrance, and the tram connects with the two closest stations as well as both of Edinburgh's main hub stations within 40 minutes. So it's not badly connected.

 

[92002]

It does have a tram stop less than 150m walk from the terminal entrance, and the tram connects with the two closest stations as well as both of Edinburgh's main hub stations within 40 minutes. So it's not badly connected.

With a number of express bus services by the same company as th tram. To the city and Leith Same fare as the tram...surprise.

 

[ian1944]

Re. Edinburgh Airport, it has had the same chief executive for more then 20 years, suggesting that he's reached his level of **competence. I met him before that at a local forum in Haddington to discuss the passenger experience of Firstbus (whatever their local offshoot was called then) - dire - and he came across as an unconvincing blusterer. I'm not saying that he's solely responsible for the screw-the-passenger approach, but certainly condones it.

There is free dropoff/collect, via a time-limited zone in the long-stay official carpark (to be fair, at its closest point to the terminal) and a signed footpath taking about 10 minutes for able-bodied walkers. Doing so by the terminal costs an ever-increasing number of £.

 

[Haywain]

So it's not badly connected.

No, it's not, but for a significant part of the population the lack of connectivity is a problem. The point I am making is that airports are not promoting car use but reacting to the demands of their users.

 

[gavin1985]

With a number of express bus services by the same company as th tram. To the city and Leith Same fare as the tram...surprise.

Only the 100 from Lothian is an express bus, the 200 and 400 stop at every stop along its route. So the tram from Leith in theory would be a far fewer stopping service.