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EE v Sulzer

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Strathclyder

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Possibly because there's a lot of Sulzer technology in that engine. After the 12LVA24 fiasco and lack off interest in the bigger version in Kestrel, Sulzer sold their intellectual rights in locomotive V-engine designs to GEC. Much of that went into the 12RK3ACT - especially in the cylinder head design
Interesting, cheers for that. :) Rewatching Cl.58 clips on YT, it does sound rather Sulzer-esque.

Are you sure they've not attached an audio clip from a class 40 onto that class 56 video!? ;)
Fairly positive that's all 56 there. ;) Keep in mind: a 40 whistles while a 56 screams. ;)

Guess it depends on the quality of the camera/microphone being used, but some clips of 56s under full power feature that EE-esque baseline thumping/thudding more prominently than others. New Gold Dreamer in particular (the author of the above clip of Grid No.135 at Elsham) has several clips of Grids under power where the thudding is very prominent indeed:



 
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kjsway

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I have never found a video or sound file featuring a 58 in full song. There are plenty of videos of them trundling, but I'd like a reminder of what they sound like. There is a video of a 58 accelerating out of Didcot which gave some Impression, but I think there was background noise. Maybe they aren't impressive! Any recommendations please?
 

Wyrleybart

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There have been various stories about Class 50 engines, one was that the wrecked hulk of DP2 was raided for the engine to fit in a Class 50, another that there were still only 49 engines left for the 50 locomotives after some unrepairable failures.
The story I heard was that DP2's power unit was recognisable through having slightly different fixings for something like the crankcase doors or similar. This power unit was allegedly seen in a condemned class 50 at the Leicester scrapyard in the 1990s but wasn't saved.

I imagine the class 50 afficionados will know which one.
 

Strathclyder

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I have never found a video or sound file featuring a 58 in full song. There are plenty of videos of them trundling, but I'd like a reminder of what they sound like. There is a video of a 58 accelerating out of Didcot which gave some Impression, but I think there was background noise. Maybe they aren't impressive! Any recommendations please?
I was the one who posted that video of the 58 accelerating out of Didcot a few months ago on another thread in this part of the fourm, it was one of the better ones in that gave some idea of what a 58 sounded like under power. Here is another one found with a quick dig into YT that gives a basic idea, this time at Copmanthorpe (from the Banjostrings07 HD channel). If I find any more examples, I'll edit the post accordingly.


Compared to the 56s and even the 60s to a degree, the 58s were/are rather subdued in regards to raw noise levels. Whether or not that has a direct effect on their overall popularity seems to depend on who you ask. While I definetely prefer the 56s in regards to noise/soundtrack - one of my favourite-sounding diesels period - can appreciate what noises the 58s do/did make.
 
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Ken H

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I was the one who posted that video of the 58 accelerating out of Didcot a few months ago on another thread in this part of the fourm, it was one of the better ones in that gave some idea of what a 58 sounded like under power. Here is another one found with a quick dig into YT that gives a basic idea, this time at Copmanthorpe (from the Banjostrings07 HD channel). If I find any more examples, I'll edit the post accordingly.


Compared to the 56s and even the 60s to a degree, the 58s are rather subdued in regards to raw noise levels. Whether or not that impacts their overall popularity seems to depend on who you ask. While I definetely prefer the 56s in regards to noise/soundtrack - one of my favourite-sounding diesels period - can appreciate what noises the 58s do make.
When did silencers start getting fitted? Was the 58 the first so fitted (from new)?
 

Cowley

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When did silencers start getting fitted? Was the 58 the first so fitted (from new)?

I think they may have been one of the first with a properly effective silencer. Many types did have them though, Peaks being a type with a very effective silencer - The one in the preserved 45149 doing it’s job properly, some of the Peaks had silencers but with stripped out innards and they were a lot louder.
 

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The story I heard was that DP2's power unit was recognisable through having slightly different fixings for something like the crankcase doors or similar. This power unit was allegedly seen in a condemned class 50 at the Leicester scrapyard in the 1990s but wasn't saved.

I imagine the class 50 afficionados will know which one.
50023, I believe was withdrawn with that engine in it.
 

The Crab

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A couple of years ago I was observing an EE4 at Bury ELR. I could hardly believe the rumbling/thumping racket it was making while idling. Did they make this din when new? I find it hard to imagine that the noise made by 3 or 4 of these machines in, say, Crewe Station would be acceptable.
 

Strathclyder

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I think they may have been one of the first with a properly effective silencer. Many types did have them though, Peaks being a type with a very effective silencer - The one in the preserved 45149 doing it’s job properly, some of the Peaks had silencers but with stripped out innards and they were a lot louder.
By contrast, it seems as though the 56s didn't have any silencing equipment fitted at all from new, even though they most likely did. To be fair though, they can be a bit subdued when idling, it's only when power is applied that the noise levels really ratchet up to 'waking the dead' levels.
 

Taunton

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A couple of years ago I was observing an EE4 at Bury ELR. I could hardly believe the rumbling/thumping racket it was making while idling. Did they make this din when new? I find it hard to imagine that the noise made by 3 or 4 of these machines in, say, Crewe Station would be acceptable.
Yes they did. When we moved from Taunton to the Wirral in the 1960s I saw these for the first time at Crewe and Lime Street, and indeed was surprised at that rumbling, almost jingling noise they made when idling. Of course, there was no EE traction in the west at the time, although we knew Sulzers well at Bristol from the Peaks. It was almost as if some of the big ends were detached ...

Then there was that staccato Pop-Pop-Pop noise when they opened up.

I have the same sensation nowadays with Voyagers in stations, which make far more noise, drowning out the platform PA, and seem to need a far higher rpm when stationary, than other diesel units.
 

Irascible

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I have the same sensation nowadays with Voyagers in stations, which make far more noise, drowning out the platform PA, and seem to need a far higher rpm when stationary, than other diesel units.

TBH I found the low rumbling tickover of a big slow diesel far less intrusive, although of course the coolers & so on make their own racket.
 

Helvellyn

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Don't think I have ever heard an unrefurbished Hoover making the sound that earned them that nickname!

At the risk of drifting further off topic the distinctive EE sound of course played a part in why the first generation DEMUs were nicknamed Thumpers.
 

Strathclyder

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Don't think I have ever heard an unrefurbished Hoover making the sound that earned them that nickname!

At the risk of drifting further off topic the distinctive EE sound of course played a part in why the first generation DEMUs were nicknamed Thumpers.
One has to wonder if there are any decent-quality audio recordings out there of a unrefurbished Hoover making the noise that earned them their eternal nickname.

Can't not mention the Irish Thumpers (the 70, 80 & 450 Classes) either, at the risk of veering even further off-topic lol
 

ac6000cw

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The EE type 4s/class 40s were never quiet...I lived in Manchester in 1978/79 and once went on a MerryMaker excursion to Edinburgh behind one - both ways over Shap and Beattock :D

although of course the coolers & so on make their own racket.
Yes - about 60% of the energy released when the diesel fuel is burnt ends up as waste heat in the cooling system and exhaust gases, and older radiator fans (and traction motor blowers) can be pretty noisy. Then you add the turbocharger and induction noise...

Getting back to the EE vs Sulzer debate, I think I read something once that the BR CMEE people were keener on Sulzer due to lower fuel consumption and a feeling that they were better designed/built and should hence last longer/have lower maintenance costs. Whether that turned out to be really the case I don't know...
 

Taunton

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The EE type 4s/class 40s were never quiet...I lived in Manchester in 1978/79 and once went on a MerryMaker excursion to Edinburgh behind one - both ways over Shap and Beattock
I did read once (Modern Railways I think) that, after electrification, Class 40s being not infrequently sent out long distance on the WCML were regarded as a right nuisance in Carlisle signal box, as most timings had been based on a Class 47 at least. There was no information of what power was on, and as the box faced the running lines, a moan would go up as one was seen to roll past, having slowed things behind over Shap.

Meanwhile ... back on the WR at Taunton, the hydraulics, high-powered small engines, were notably quieter as they accelerated away than any of the replacing Sulzers (we were long gone when the Class 50s came along). For all that much has been written (somewhat unaccountably, I find) about hydraulic unreliability, they were by and large fine, and operated to schedule, even the North British built ones, and ran well at high speed. Maybe a bit uncomfortably for the 4-wheel bogied Warships around downhill reverse curves with the power off, but still apparently more comfortably than a Britannia. The noisiest were, surprisingly, the Hymeks, as their single engine instead of two made the pulsing of the exhaust much more noticeable. Getting back to what was discussed earlier, all the hydraulic engines, sometimes described as "German", were like the Sulzer, just imported drawings. The MAN engines were built by North British in Glasgow, and the Maybachs were built by Bristol Siddeley, later part of Rolls-Royce, at a factory in Coventry.
 

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Many types did have them though, Peaks being a type with a very effective silencer - The one in the preserved 45149 doing its job properly.
Been trying to blow the baffles out the silencer this weekend but they're still putting up a good fight!
 

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Been trying to blow the baffles out the silencer this weekend but they're still putting up a good fight!

Lovely. :)
I believe the term in bashing circles of a Peak with a full compliment of baffles in the silencer was that they were ‘Snipped’, which made me chuckle (and cross my legs) somewhat.
 

Richard Scott

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Lovely. :)
I believe the term in bashing circles of a Peak with a full compliment of baffles in the silencer was that they were ‘Snipped’, which made me chuckle (and cross my legs) somewhat.
That is correct, often heard them referred to as snipped or unsnipped!
 

Cowley

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That is correct, often heard them referred to as snipped or unsnipped!

There is quite a big difference in sound between the two that’s for sure.
One thing that I’ve always wondered about is what form of silencer do class 08s/09s have? They’re fairly quiet unlike virtually everything else EE made and although they’re not turbocharged I’d expect one without a silencer to be fairly noisy?
 

Richard Scott

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There is quite a big difference in sound between the two that’s for sure.
One thing that I’ve always wondered about is what form of silencer do class 08s/09s have? They’re fairly quiet unlike virtually everything else EE made and although they’re not turbocharged I’d expect one without a silencer to be fairly noisy?
There's a good question, can't remember, long time since seen inside an 08. Know drifting off topic but Yugoslavia had some GMs that I believe we're both unsilenced and non turbo and were extremely loud; class 664s?
Also be interested to know if the Romanian Sulzers are unsilenced as their 60s certainly sound louder/raspier than a peak or 47?
 
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ac6000cw

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Know drifting off topic but Yugoslavia had some GMs that I believe we're both unsilenced and non turbo and were extremely loud; class 664s?
They could be either the older JZ 661 (GM G16) powered by a Roots-blown 16-567C, or the later JZ 664 (GM G26) powered by a Roots-blown 16-645E

This is a 661 (that Roots-blown 16-567 sound is just so distinctive...) :


...and these are 664s:

 

Richard Scott

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They could be either the older JZ 661 (GM G16) powered by a Roots-blown 16-567C, or the later JZ 664 (GM G26) powered by a Roots-blown 16-645E

This is a 661 (that Roots-blown 16-567 sound is just so distinctive...) :


...and these are 664s:

Was the 664s I was thinking of. Have seen and ridden behind both types but was the 664 that really stood out for sheer volume (thought they weren't turbocharged, know as a two stroke need a blower of some form for scavenging?). Even EE locos hard pushed to match the volume of one of those.
 

43096

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Was the 664s I was thinking of. Have seen and ridden behind both types but was the 664 that really stood out for sheer volume (thought they weren't turbocharged, know as a two stroke need a blower of some form for scavenging?). Even EE locos hard pushed to match the volume of one of those.
One of my favourite railway memories is doing the overnight sleeper to Zagreb out of Split, hauled by a 2062. Even towards the back of the train the noise was something else, with the loco in notch 8 for around half an hour on the climb out of Split.
 

ac6000cw

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Was the 664s I was thinking of. Have seen and ridden behind both types but was the 664 that really stood out for sheer volume (thought they weren't turbocharged, know as a two stroke need a blower of some form for scavenging?).
They're not turbocharged, they have a mechanically driven supercharger (a 'Roots-type' blower - see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roots-type_supercharger). Pressure charging, as you say, is essential to the operation of a two-stroke diesel engine, as the incoming air flow is needed to push - scavenge - the exhaust gases out of the cylinder (during the lower part of the piston stroke).

Turbocharged EMD two-stroke diesels have a special hybrid supercharger/turbocharger, which is mechanically driven at low engine rpm and by the exhaust gases at higher rpm/exhaust flow.

The G26 was basically an 'export' design derived from the US market SD38/SD38-2 locos (which also have non-turbo 16-645E engines).

All the non-turbo/Roots-blown EMD engines I've ever heard in locomotives are deliciously & distinctively raucous.... :)
 
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Richard Scott

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They're not turbocharged, they have a mechanically driven supercharger (a 'Roots-type' blower - see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roots-type_supercharger) - pressure charging, as you say, is essential to the operation of a two-stroke diesel engine.

Turbocharged EMD two-stroke diesels have a special hybrid supercharger/turbocharger, which is mechanically driven at low engine rpm and by the exhaust gases at higher rpm/exhaust flow.

The G26 was basically an 'export' version of the US market SD38/SD38-2 locos.
Thanks for info, looks like my post should have used better English as can see it implied I asked the question 'thought they weren't turbocharged' when in fact was confirming what I already thought to be true. Must read my posts more carefully before posting!!! Probably best I get back on topic now!!!
 

ac6000cw

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The EE type 4s/class 40s were never quiet...I lived in Manchester in 1978/79 and once went on a MerryMaker excursion to Edinburgh behind one - both ways over Shap and Beattock :D
Stop it, you're making me jealous over here lol ;)
Well, being hauled by a 40 over the northern WCML was some compensation for having been ill for half the night before the trip due to bad/off beer - I think I avoided that particular pub thereafter...
 

Cowley

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Well, being hauled by a 40 over the northern WCML was some compensation for having been ill for half the night before the trip due to bad/off beer - I think I avoided that particular pub thereafter...

Bad/off beer?
I usually find that the tenth pint must’ve had something wrong with it too @ac6000cw:lol:
 
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