Effect of planned new WCML timetable on Milton Keynes Central

[Philip]

When is this for? Post HS2? None will go via Northampton apart from possibly a few peaks. Liverpool will be covered by HS2 so anything that exists from there is going to be stopping south of Crewe. Nothing is going to miss Birmingham International either on the Birmingham route, nor Coventry with your last service, that is daft.

Post HS2 is many years away yet even for the section south of Birmingham, this is focused on the railway before HS2 begins.

I think Coventry can make do with a two-per hour frequency to London in addition to the Cross Country and WMT services which also serve it, perhaps Birmingham Intl should also be served by two Avanti London trains rather than one. There is no need for 3 trains per hour from London to Coventry/B'ham Intl though and so it'd be useful for London-Birmingham NS passengers if they had the option of a service which only stops at Milton Keynes and no where else.

I think Northampton is big enough to justify having an intercity service to London, if there is a path available. Either one of the Birmingham or one of the Manchester services would be good as these would still have two fast services in addition to the slow which goes via Northampton.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think Northampton is big enough to justify having an intercity service to London, if there is a path available. Either one of the Birmingham or one of the Manchester services would be good as these would still have two fast services in addition to the slow which goes via Northampton.

Given that 350/1s are nice enough, I'm not sure "an intercity service" is that important - there isn't much comfort difference in Standard between the two, and I doubt many care about 1st. The xx49 from Euston stops only at Watford, MKC and Northampton before heading north and provides a pretty quick service - you could try to get one stop out of that, but I'm not sure there'd be a huge gain.

If it's all about prestige, write InterCity on the side of a few 350s.

 

[Philip]

Given that 350/1s are nice enough, I'm not sure "an intercity service" is that important - there isn't much comfort difference in Standard between the two, and I doubt many care about 1st. The xx49 from Euston stops only at Watford, MKC and Northampton before heading north and provides a pretty quick service - you could try to get one stop out of that, but I'm not sure there'd be a huge gain.

If it's all about prestige, write InterCity on the side of a few 350s.

The one I was on yesterday (I didn't see which sub-class) didn't even have arm rests or fold-down tables and this was for a Crewe-London service. Admittedly I changed onto another one which did have these and it felt a lot better inside, but they should all have tables and arm rests if they're on intercity duties.

 

[Southern Dvr]

The only reason for Northampton to have an Intercity service would be for connections to the north not to London. Northampton to Manchester & Liverpool is a rather complex journey right now and so maybe a better connection going north is justified. But Northampton to London is perfectly well covered as it is.

 

[The Planner]

Post HS2 is many years away yet even for the section south of Birmingham, this is focused on the railway before HS2 begins.

I think Coventry can make do with a two-per hour frequency to London in addition to the Cross Country and WMT services which also serve it, perhaps Birmingham Intl should also be served by two Avanti London trains rather than one. There is no need for 3 trains per hour from London to Coventry/B'ham Intl though and so it'd be useful for London-Birmingham NS passengers if they had the option of a service which only stops at Milton Keynes and no where else.

I think Northampton is big enough to justify having an intercity service to London, if there is a path available. Either one of the Birmingham or one of the Manchester services would be good as these would still have two fast services in addition to the slow which goes via Northampton.

Can I have some of what you are smoking?! What are you basing this nonsense on?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The one I was on yesterday (I didn't see which sub-class) didn't even have arm rests or fold-down tables and this was for a Crewe-London service. Admittedly I changed onto another one which did have these and it felt a lot better inside, but they should all have tables and arm rests if they're on intercity duties.

The problem with the 350s is that WMT use them as a single pool. The /1s, /3s and /4s have tables and a 2+2 layout which is arguably more comfortable than Pendolinos and Voyagers (certainly more legroom at most seats and a higher proportion of tables), but the /2s have 3+2 and no tables and should really be kept to e.g. Tring and MKC stopping services, New St-Wolves and the likes.

That said, the bays of 6 have excellent legroom and are quite popular with the families and groups who are the mainstay of the Euston-Brum and Euston-Crewe services, so horses for courses.

 

[A0]

Given that 350/1s are nice enough, I'm not sure "an intercity service" is that important - there isn't much comfort difference in Standard between the two, and I doubt many care about 1st. The xx49 from Euston stops only at Watford, MKC and Northampton before heading north and provides a pretty quick service - you could try to get one stop out of that, but I'm not sure there'd be a huge gain.

If it's all about prestige, write InterCity on the side of a few 350s.

Bit in bold - oh goodie. So that means that post HS2, MKC should be more than adequately served by a squadron of Class 350/1 equivalents running to Birmingham, Manchester and Liverpool then with stopping along the Trent Valley as the standard ? No need for Pendolinos or equivalent to be serving MK as that's closer to London than Northampton and anything longer distance can be covered by a change at Birmingham onto HS2.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Bit in bold - oh goodie. So that means that post HS2, MKC should be more than adequately served by a squadron of Class 350/1 equivalents running to Birmingham, Manchester and Liverpool then with stopping along the Trent Valley as the standard ? No need for Pendolinos or equivalent to be serving MK as that's closer to London than Northampton and anything longer distance can be covered by a change at Birmingham onto HS2.

There is a fairly reasonable argument that post-HS2 the classic south WCML should be entirely (other than any North Wales service) served by a single TOC running a fleet of 2+2-seated 110mph EMUs on a service pattern a bit more semifast than what is presently there, yes. In essence something looking a bit more like the GWR Bristol/South Wales service than the present WCML, and where MKC takes on the role of Reading on GWR.

Where they stop precisely is a totally different discussion, and stopping them all at all Trent Valley stations would be a bit silly (Atherstone does not for example justify 3tph), though no doubt more stops will indeed be inserted than as things are now, and that will improve connectivity, e.g. more Nuneaton stops makes travelling towards Leicester more convenient.

 

[cle]

There is a fairly reasonable argument that post-HS2 the classic south WCML should be entirely (other than any North Wales service) served by a single TOC running a fleet of 2+2-seated 110mph EMUs on a service pattern a bit more semifast than what is presently there, yes. In essence something looking a bit more like the GWR Bristol/South Wales service than the present WCML, and where MKC takes on the role of Reading on GWR.

Where they stop precisely is a totally different discussion, and stopping them all at all Trent Valley stations would be a bit silly (Atherstone does not for example justify 3tph), though no doubt more stops will indeed be inserted than as things are now, and that will improve connectivity, e.g. more Nuneaton stops makes travelling towards Leicester more convenient.

I could see this working. I would stop everything at Watford Junction too - and much at Rugby (would be such a shame to not have a few thing fly through there, after all that work!) - beyond those, all sorts of patterns. How to use Northampton is always the tricky one. Ostensibly it needs 2tph to London (fast+semi) and then a stopper or two.

Crewe would still be a hub so you'd want 2tph to there - with calls on the way to feed it. Probably a slower Liverpool and a slower Manc (Wilmslow argument ensues) - but there is always North Wales to consider too. Plus, Stoke needs a train service - so it writes itself.

Not sure how you'd pattern services along the line from Rugby to Birmingham.

 

[JonathanH]

How to use Northampton is always the tricky one. Ostensibly it needs 2tph to London (fast+semi) and then a stopper or two.

Stoppers from Northampton towards London aren't necessary (except to access Kings Heath) because all trains can stop at Wolverton and Milton Keynes, with the stoppers kicking in from Milton Keynes.

2tph from Northampton should be fine - one Wolverton, Milton Keynes and Watford, the other Wolverton, Milton Keynes and Leighton Buzzard. 2tph semi fast south of Milton Keynes, and if necessary, 2tph stoppers south of Tring.

If Avanti pick up the main stops in the Trent Valley, I would bin the LNR services to Euston and run them to Northampton bays to terminate giving Northampton a northbound train with a Birmingham stopper from Northampton on the other side of the hour.

 

[A0]

Stoppers from Northampton towards London aren't necessary (except to access Kings Heath) because all trains can stop at Wolverton and Milton Keynes, with the stoppers kicking in from Milton Keynes.

2tph from Northampton should be fine - one Wolverton, Milton Keynes and Watford, the other Wolverton, Milton Keynes and Leighton Buzzard. 2tph semi fast south of Milton Keynes, and if necessary, 2tph stoppers south of Tring.

I think 2tph is too low for Northampton - it ought to be 3tph London bound. The problem is what you do going the other way because 2tph is probably OK for Birmingham *but* the Birmingham services have been massively slowed down - in Silverlink days it was Long Buckby, Rugby, Coventry, International, New Street. Post HS2 that's probably what it should be.

If Avanti pick up the main stops in the Trent Valley, I would bin the LNR services to Euston and run them to Northampton bays to terminate giving Northampton a northbound train with a Birmingham stopper from Northampton on the other side of the hour.

It's not clear how the Avanti stops on the TV are going to appear yet, whilst LNR need to retain a presence along there (because Atherstone and Rugeley TV won't get Avanti stops) is having a Crewe - Northampton "shuttle" the answer ?

 

[jfollows]

Post-HS2 has to enable journeys I've made in the past more easy:

• Wilmslow-Watford
• Wilmslow-Milton Keynes
• Wilmslow-Northampton via Rugby
• Wilmslow-Leicester via Nuneaton
• Wilmslow-Coventry via Nuneaton

These are all trips I've made in the past, some of them pre-Pendolino, all of which - with the exception of Milton Keynes - aren't very nice today. The speeded up Crewe-London service has improved things, I went to Coventry on the old service via Stoke and I went to Leicester in the early timetable when the Liverpool services called there.

This isn't off-topic because it'll have implications for future Milton Keynes services. But surely it has to enable connections, which aren't part of the current timetable. It's great to be able to whizz through Rugby at 125mph if I'm going to London, but it's annoying if I want to change there for Northampton currently. And going via Wolverhampton and Birmingham is a complete pain when that's not my destination, to me anyway.

EDIT And, I now remember, I used to change at Tamworth for Gloucester sometimes, that was good when the times worked, and I once came home London Marylebone-Birmingham-Lichfield-Wilmslow, but the Trent Valley calls are less important to me.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think 2tph is too low for Northampton - it ought to be 3tph London bound. The problem is what you do going the other way because 2tph is probably OK for Birmingham *but* the Birmingham services have been massively slowed down - in Silverlink days it was Long Buckby, Rugby, Coventry, International, New Street. Post HS2 that's probably what it should be.

It's not clear how the Avanti stops on the TV are going to appear yet, whilst LNR need to retain a presence along there (because Atherstone and Rugeley TV won't get Avanti stops) is having a Crewe - Northampton "shuttle" the answer ?

I think that very much depends on what Avanti do - if they provide 1tph at all TV stations except Rugeley/Atherstone, then the importance of the TV LNR service reduces a lot (though it is still a useful market differentiator), but if it's just bitty calls like used to be provided then the service should be retained as is.

If they do go hourly, I'd say it would be bad to turn it into a shuttle, but why not make it your third fast TPH to Euston by routeing it back via Northampton, perhaps calling at MKC only? Admittedly it does mean that one of the Euston-wherever-Brum services would need to sit at Northampton for 10 minutes to align the pattern, but that's been done before.

 

[cle]

It should probably be the same operator, for one.

I do think 2tph is too little for Northampton towards London - an even 3tph seems fair, even if there is a mix of patterns.

I would think you could have 2tph to Crewe on the slower services. 1tph per today via Weedon - providing a faster service, and 1tph as an extension of a Northampton tph. One could run via Stoke directly, the other via Norton. Don't mind which. And you cover your 'local' TV service with those - enabling the faster suite of services to skip stop more for longer distance and fast London times. And you feed Crewe for northbound services (Stoke offers Manchester also)

 

[A0]

Post-HS2 has to enable journeys I've made in the past more easy:

• Wilmslow-Watford
• Wilmslow-Milton Keynes
• Wilmslow-Northampton via Rugby
• Wilmslow-Leicester via Nuneaton
• Wilmslow-Coventry via Nuneaton

These are all trips I've made in the past, some of them pre-Pendolino, all of which - with the exception of Milton Keynes - aren't very nice today. The speeded up Crewe-London service has improved things, I went to Coventry on the old service via Stoke and I went to Leicester in the early timetable when the Liverpool services called there.

This isn't off-topic because it'll have implications for future Milton Keynes services. But surely it has to enable connections, which aren't part of the current timetable. It's great to be able to whizz through Rugby at 125mph if I'm going to London, but it's annoying if I want to change there for Northampton currently. And going via Wolverhampton and Birmingham is a complete pain when that's not my destination, to me anyway.

EDIT And, I now remember, I used to change at Tamworth for Gloucester sometimes, that was good when the times worked, and I once came home London Marylebone-Birmingham-Lichfield-Wilmslow, but the Trent Valley calls are less important to me.

Bit in bold - Why ?

Such flows are all pretty marginal. Apart from Northampton and Leicester, they can all be made with a single change at Crewe currently, so no exactly a hardship.

 

[HS2isgood]

After HS2, I personally think that Chester ought to be served directly from London via HS2, by a portion off a Liverpool service (or off the Macclesfield if Liverpools run via Bank Quay Low Level and no longer call at Crewe). If it's electrified it can run normally and if it isn't it can be dragged by a locomotive. It isn't the best solution, but there's a 40 minute time saving for it.

Then, the WCML would be about serving intermediate places: it could be served by a common operator using two different types of rolling stock, IC stock for semi-fast services and regional stock for shorter or slow services. Taking into account that the WCML would be relieved from serving Chester and that Trent Valley stations would be served by 1-2 tph and in order to not reduce service to any station from pre-HS2 times (with the exception of London-Coventry), I propose a 5 tph semi-fast timetable: 2 Birmingham fasts (to serve Cov and Int'l), one calling at each of Watford Junction and Rugby and both at MKC, Coventry and International. Both would go on to Wolverhampton, calling at Sandwell and Dudley. After Wolverhampton one would go to Crewe and Scotland (allowing the HS2 Brum-Scotland to run fast to Preston) and the other to Shrewsbury every other hour.

Theee services would run along the Trent Valley, one to Manchester with Watford, MKC, Rugby, Nuneaton, Stoke, Macclesfield, Stockport and the other two to Crewe. One with the current pattern and the other just calling MKC, Nuneaton, Tamworth, Lichfield, Rugeley and Stafford, replacing the Liverpool Avanti service. I think that Northampton justifies 4 tph, calling at either Hemel Hempstead or Leighton Buzzard, 2 on each (many proposals here disregard LB's current fast line calls), MKC and either Bletchley or Wolverton. Two would go on to Birmingham New Street (for EWR connectivity this should be the ones calling at Bletchley), with the old Silverlink pattern, and the other two would terminate at Northampton, with a separate 2 tph Birmingham-Northampton all-stops service.

 

[jfollows]

Bit in bold - Why ?

Such flows are all pretty marginal. Apart from Northampton and Leicester, they can all be made with a single change at Crewe currently, so no exactly a hardship.

No, you're right, it's nothing to do with HS2 AND they're marginal flows, they're journeys I've probably made once, but presumably there are others who are similar to me, I think we have to change from a "get to London as quickly as possible at all costs" railway to one which also enables connections and this can happen gradually.
For me, going via Birmingham stinks but that may just be me I agree!

 

[Bletchleyite]

No, you're right, it's nothing to do with HS2 AND they're marginal flows, they're journeys I've probably made once, but presumably there are others who are similar to me, I think we have to change from a "get to London as quickly as possible at all costs" railway to one which also enables connections and this can happen gradually.

It can certainly happen post HS2, because HS2 is the "get to London as quickly as possible at all costs" offering. Other than the question of North Wales which has a few possible answers (possibly dependent on what passengers actually choose to do), the WCML then becomes about intermediate connectivity.

 

[Philip]

Can I have some of what you are smoking?! What are you basing this nonsense on?

If one of the 3 Manchester trains stopped at Northampton, preferably the one via Crewe to give good connections for further north, then this would be a very useful addition for Northampton passengers as it would provide a direct service for a journey which is currently complicated to make, whilst also providing an additional fast train to London.

Coventry and Birmingham Intl would be very adequately served with two Avanti services along with the WMT London service. London to Birmingham passengers don't really want trains stopping at Coventry and Birmingham Intl as it slows things down, so having one of the three Avanti London-Birmingham services stopping only at Milton Keynes would be good for this reason.

Talk of 'post HS2' is academic for the time being, as we are still a long way from HS2 even reaching Birmingham - and that's assuming it is completed on time! A lot can change between now and then.

 

[JonathanH]

If one of the 3 Manchester trains stopped at Northampton, preferably the one via Crewe to give good connections for further north, then this would be a very useful addition for Northampton passengers as it would provide a direct service for a journey which is currently complicated to make, whilst also providing an additional fast train to London.

Running a train from Manchester to London every twenty minutes with one of the services having a twenty minute detour doesn't give a very balanced timetable.

 

[The Planner]

If one of the 3 Manchester trains stopped at Northampton, preferably the one via Crewe to give good connections for further north, then this would be a very useful addition for Northampton passengers as it would provide a direct service for a journey which is currently complicated to make, whilst also providing an additional fast train to London.

Coventry and Birmingham Intl would be very adequately served with two Avanti services along with the WMT London service. London to Birmingham passengers don't really want trains stopping at Coventry and Birmingham Intl as it slows things down, so having one of the three Avanti London-Birmingham services stopping only at Milton Keynes would be good for this reason.

Talk of 'post HS2' is academic for the time being, as we are still a long way from HS2 even reaching Birmingham - and that's assuming it is completed on time! A lot can change between now and then.

Except the WCML is being rewritten for Dec 22 and none of that is happening. Do you even understand the loadings from Coventry and International, which happens to serve an airport and has a 2100 space car park? Even your normal Bolton ideas make more sense than this.

 

[Philip]

Running a train from Manchester to London every twenty minutes with one of the services having a twenty minute detour doesn't give a very balanced timetable.

It is hypothetical but if a path is available each way then this wouldn't be a huge problem if two services left London and Manchester fairly close to each other, one billed as 'fast' and the other as 'slow' so that the arrivals at the destinations were balanced at approximately 20 minutes apart.

 

[Bald Rick]

Coventry and Birmingham Intl would be very adequately served with two Avanti services along with the WMT London service

no, they wouldn’t.

London to Birmingham passengers don't really want trains stopping at Coventry and Birmingham Intl as it slows things down,

and passengers between Birmingham NS / Birmingham Intl / Coventry rather want them to stop. And there’s rather a lot of them. Also, having a non stop train from New St to the other side of Coventyr needs som enough holes punched in the timetable of everything else.

 

[mmh]

Except the WCML is being rewritten for Dec 22 and none of that is happening. Do you even understand the loadings from Coventry and International, which happens to serve an airport and has a 2100 space car park? Even your normal Bolton ideas make more sense than this.

That seems unnecessarily rude. We've had two years of "Well, yes whatever" timetables. Some of us would like to get back to some sort of normality. Birmingham International is some sort of barrier to improving services? Codswallop - the only reason TFW run to there is to get out of the way.

 

[The Planner]

That seems unnecessarily rude. We've had two years of "Well, yes whatever" timetables. Some of us would like to get back to some sort of normality. Birmingham International is some sort of barrier to improving services? Codswallop - the only reason TFW run to there is to get out of the way.

How does removing International as a call improve anything? TfW going there solved two things, one you mention and the other being the connectivity to mid Wales.

 

[JonathanH]

TfW going there solved two things, one you mention and the other being the connectivity to mid Wales.

Three things, surely - it also meant late running trains got turned round at New Street instead of Wolverhampton.

 

[A0]

I could see this working. I would stop everything at Watford Junction too -

Not sure I would - the problem will be people hanging on for the "fast trains" leading to overcrowding. Even Clapham Junction doesn't have *everything* stop at it. Nor does Finsbury Park if you look at the GN/TL services - the Cambridge Cruiser was first stop Stevenage for example.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not sure I would - the problem will be people hanging on for the "fast trains" leading to overcrowding. Even Clapham Junction doesn't have *everything* stop at it. Nor does Finsbury Park if you look at the GN/TL services - the Cambridge Cruiser was first stop Stevenage for example.

CLJ only really doesn't because of line capacity issues. It would be more useful if it did.

 

[A0]

CLJ only really doesn't because of line capacity issues. It would be more useful if it did.

But creates the problem of overcrowding with people doing short hops to/from the London termini to the first station - which is undesirable. And unlike Finsbury Park or Tottenham Hale for example, there's no interchange onto the Underground either.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But creates the problem of overcrowding with people doing short hops to/from the London termini to the first station - which is undesirable. And unlike Finsbury Park or Tottenham Hale for example, there's no interchange onto the Underground either.

Watford Jn has long used pick up/set down restrictions to successfully manage this, right back to BR days.