Electric Spine

[LE Greys]

Having the wires up at Basingstoke suggests that one of the logical next extensions would be to Salisbury & remove some diesels from Waterloo.
Presumably also allows for some diversions via Reading & Staines if the line via Woking is unavailable. (though obviously limited in number due to having to go through Reading station & connect onto the 3rd rail lines)

Which will eventually lead to a rather tantalising gap between Salisbury and Exeter with wires at both ends, assuming that after South Wales, Plymouth is the next target followed by Cogload Junction-Newbury. It's more an electric 'tibia and fibula' than a spine, but I hope it happens before long.
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For someone who went to secondary school in southampton by train in the late 70s the thought of that area getting Overheads is still quite amazing . So , because I had far too much time on my hands and an old copy of trainz2006 i thought hmmmm what would a cab ride look like post 2019 .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ETIMdsUBw0
Yes I know . Dont take it too seriously

Oddly fascinating to see those alien structures down there, thanks for that, even though there did seem to be a few gaps in the wires there (sorry).

 

[The Ham]

Which will eventually lead to a rather tantalising gap between Salisbury and Exeter with wires at both ends, assuming that after South Wales, Plymouth is the next target followed by Cogload Junction-Newbury. It's more an electric 'tibia and fibula' than a spine, but I hope it happens before long.

However as Salisbury is about half way along the Waterloo-Exeter service and where most of the diesel trains run by SWT are stabled, it would proberly result in a EMU to Sailsbury (with a top running speed of at least 100, rather than 90) with a change to a DMU to go the rest of the way. Given the time savings (speed & accesleration) it could lead to it being at least no slower than on one train, although it would cause a few people to moad about the break in the journey.

 

[jopsuk]

I'd reckon that if the Salisbury lines were electrified only as far as there, then the locals would go electric, but the long-distance to Exeter might remain fully diesel until wire extend from there to Exeter (at which point SWT would be fully electric)

 

[GRALISTAIR]

However as Salisbury is about half way along the Waterloo-Exeter service and where most of the diesel trains run by SWT are stabled, it would proberly result in a EMU to Sailsbury (with a top running speed of at least 100, rather than 90) with a change to a DMU to go the rest of the way. Given the time savings (speed & accesleration) it could lead to it being at least no slower than on one train, although it would cause a few people to moad about the break in the journey.

It will happen - patience

 

[starrymarkb]

When Eurostars were fitted with DC pickups for running over classic lines on the South Eastern, they had automatic changeover at speed, triggered by trackside transponders, at first at Dollands Moor, then on the connecting line to the first stage of HS1. I don't know if the 92s are or were fitted with the same system, but as far as I know all tunnel freight has to stop in Dollands Moor yard where the changeover can be accomplished at a stand, if there are any though loco workings at the moment. So there's no reason why a method cannot be devised for switching at speed through Basingstoke and approaching Southampton from the west. If a wider rolling programme of 3rd rail conversion was embarked upon, such a solution would seem to be essential.

The changeover is manual. A sign instructs the driver to lower and raise the pans with the voltage selection being made by a dial in the cab. A similar changeover takes place at the end of the Belgian HSL for the switch to NMBS 3kV. There are also changeovers at the Eurotunnel end of HS1 and at both ends of LGV Nord where the cantary changes tension/height...

 

[Mystic Force]

How about locomotive hauling off the line towards Exeter.

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2

 

[D6975]

No reason they can't - every day services change over at 20mph at Mitre Bridge on the WLL in both directions.

Do they actually do this now?
I've travelled the WLL (Northbound) on a 377/2 several times recently and we've always stopped for the DC/AC change. It could of course just be that you always get checked at the signals Northbound, it's a busy bit of track just there. Do they change on the fly Southbound?

 

[The Ham]

It will happen - patience

I have no doubt that in time it will, I was just thinking whilst between Salisbury & Exeter isn't electrified there is a reasonable interim solution.

 

[starrymarkb]

I have no doubt that in time it will, I was just thinking whilst between Salisbury & Exeter isn't electrified there is a reasonable interim solution.

Continue with the 159s on the Exeter Fasts and accept for the interim you are going to have diesels running over about 80 miles of electric track? That would be best from a passenger view point

 

[Lrd]

Do they actually do this now?
I've travelled the WLL (Northbound) on a 377/2 several times recently and we've always stopped for the DC/AC change. It could of course just be that you always get checked at the signals Northbound, it's a busy bit of track just there. Do they change on the fly Southbound?

I remember seeing on here before that normal services are timetabled to stop and change, but if they are late then they have the option to do it on the fly to save a bit of time.

 

[Pumbaa]

Do they actually do this now?
I've travelled the WLL (Northbound) on a 377/2 several times recently and we've always stopped for the DC/AC change. It could of course just be that you always get checked at the signals Northbound, it's a busy bit of track just there. Do they change on the fly Southbound?

Southern services still won't do it - even though the stock is fully capable of it. LO do change on the go though. So that's 4/5 per hour.

 

[IanXC]

I have no doubt that in time it will, I was just thinking whilst between Salisbury & Exeter isn't electrified there is a reasonable interim solution.

I don't know whether I dare mention it but... IEP bimode could be a potential solution.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I don't know whether I dare mention it but... IEP bimode could be a potential solution.

Absolutely - I think better than attaching a 67

 

[philjo]

Do the Bimodes have 3rd rail capability for the section from Basingstoke to Waterloo though?
(They could of course be reouted via Reading to Paddington to use the 25kv ac)

 

[jopsuk]

Using all that spare capacity that's just going to waste between Reading and Paddington?

 

[gwr4090]

The Network Rail Electrification Strategy document "Network RUS Electrifcation" published in October 2009 looks at electrifaction priority throughout the country. It states that 25Kv electrification from Reading-Basinsgtoke-Salisbury-Exeter has a good potential cost-benefit ratio and recommends that it should have relatively high priority. It suggests that it should follow after the Berks & Hants electrification using the GWML High Output electrifcation train. In practice Reading-Basinsgtoke is now to be done earlier. The assumption is that the Class 159s would be replaced by dual voltage Desiros or similar for Waterloo-Exeter services, as Waterloo-Basinsgtoke will remain 750vDC for some time. The Class 159s would presumably be redeployed elesewhere. It makes no sense to terminate electrification at Salisbury.

Here is a link to the strategy document
<http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse%20documents/rus%20documents/route%20utilisation%20strategies/network/working%20group%204%20-%20electrification%20strategy/networkrus_electrification.pdf>

David

 

[LE Greys]

How about locomotive hauling off the line towards Exeter.

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2

That's an old solution used on the Southern a few times, but really it's only a temporary fix. Wiring all the way to Exeter with the line fully dualled (a good time to do it) would be the best solution, partly so that at least some freight could go that way, provided there would be an easy way to reverse it at Exeter, perhaps taking a diesel off the north end and putting an electric on the south end (way easier with freight than passengers).

Pity we don't have the bagpipe 33s available, and I suppose a modern version (a lightweight loco with Dellners and Desiro-compatible MU equipment) would probably be too expensive.
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The Network Rail Electrification Strategy document "Network RUS Electrifcation" published in October 2009 looks at electrifaction priority throughout the country. It states that 25Kv electrification from Reading-Basinsgtoke-Salisbury-Exeter has a good potential cost-benefit ratio and recommends that it should have relatively high priority. It suggests that it should follow after the Berks & Hants electrification using the GWML High Output electrifcation train. In practice Reading-Basinsgtoke is now to be done earlier. The assumption is that the Class 159s would be replaced by dual voltage Desiros or similar for Waterloo-Exeter services, as Waterloo-Basinsgtoke will remain 750vDC for some time. The Class 159s would presumably be redeployed elesewhere. It makes no sense to terminate electrification at Salisbury.

Here is a link to the strategy document
<http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse%20documents/rus%20documents/route%20utilisation%20strategies/network/working%20group%204%20-%20electrification%20strategy/networkrus_electrification.pdf>

David

Sounds like a reasonable outcome. I'd say the old Alphaline routes would be ideal for the 159s, or possibly Norwich-Liverpool and some other EMT routes, assuming their 158s don't get replaced with something more modern.

 

[David Dunning]

Oddly fascinating to see those alien structures down there, thanks for that, even though there did seem to be a few gaps in the wires there (sorry).

I know the wiring train was on a tea break and couldnt do the other side

 

[BartTheAnorak]

Even if they haven't committed to everything we would've liked them to, they've committed to a lot. The infill between Coventry and Basingstoke was screaming out to be done, as was MML.

Three little words... ABOUT TIME TOO!

 

[Uzair]

Regarding electrification of the MML, will the 222s be converted to AC with a transformer car, or will they be cascaded? If the latter, I was thinking they could be sent to SWT (considering EMT and SWT and under the same parent company), for Waterloo to Exeter services, replacing the 159s which could be sent to various other places.

 

[The Ham]

Regarding electrification of the MML, will the 222s be converted to AC with a transformer car, or will they be cascaded? If the latter, I was thinking they could be sent to SWT (considering EMT and SWT and under the same parent company), for Waterloo to Exeter services, replacing the 159s which could be sent to various other places.

Given the line speet of the SWML is 100mph, running 125mph trains would not be best use of stock. Also, it would only be of use if formation lenghts would allow the same number of seats than is possible using the existing trains.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Also trains are owned by ROSCOS and not the companies so SWT being stagecoach as well as EMT makes no difference.

 

[anthony263]

Regarding electrification of the MML, will the 222s be converted to AC with a transformer car, or will they be cascaded? If the latter, I was thinking they could be sent to SWT (considering EMT and SWT and under the same parent company), for Waterloo to Exeter services, replacing the 159s which could be sent to various other places.

I would see the class 222's be cascaded to the GW and hoprefully eliminate any need for the bi-mode IEP

 

[tbtc]

I would see the class 222's be cascaded to the GW and hoprefully eliminate any need for the bi-mode IEP

To replace the HSTs, yes.

There aren't enough 222s (twenty seven) to replace all bi-mode IEP though (thirty six required for Great Western franchise plus some for the East Coast franchise for Aberdeen/ Inverness etc).

 

[anthony263]

To replace the HSTs, yes.

There aren't enough 222s (twenty seven) to replace all bi-mode IEP though (thirty six required for Great Western franchise plus some for the East Coast franchise for Aberdeen/ Inverness etc).

I had a feeling that was the case although if they wire to places such as Cheltenham then maybe that would allow for a reduction in the number of bi-modes and an increase in the number of full electric IEP's

 

[tbtc]

I had a feeling that was the case although if they wire to places such as Cheltenham then maybe that would allow for a reduction in the number of bi-modes and an increase in the number of full electric IEP's

True, although there's a long list of electrification to do before then. I do expect bi-mode trains to be cascaded away from such routes onto others (XC etc) as lines are electrified. But I think that 222s are more likely on Cornish services than bi-mode IEPs are. Just a hunch.

 

[The Ham]

True, although there's a long list of electrification to do before then. I do expect bi-mode trains to be cascaded away from such routes onto others (XC etc) as lines are electrified. But I think that 222s are more likely on Cornish services than bi-mode IEPs are. Just a hunch.

It would mean that there would be little work (if any) required to allow them to run in Cornwall. It would also be good as the 222's (apparently) have a faster acceleration than the 125's which would help with journey times beyond Plymouth.

I would expect that they would double up from London to Plymouth and then split with 5 coaches going on into Cornwall with the other 5 would head back to London with a set which had just come up from Penzance. As the train is often quiet west of Pymouth (other than the summer months).

Not sure what the 7 coach sets would be used for.

 

[LE Greys]

Given the line speet of the SWML is 100mph, running 125mph trains would not be best use of stock. Also, it would only be of use if formation lenghts would allow the same number of seats than is possible using the existing trains.

With sufficient current, I'd say that the SWML is a practical 125 route. From a lot of timing, a 5-WES used to get to 100 and hold it for miles and miles, so seven seconds a mile faster should see them saving quite a lot of time, five minutes on Basingstoke-Eastleigh alone. Unfortunately, 125 on 3rd rail is very unlikely, so this would need wires all the way to Waterloo to make it worthwhile. If it happens (plus a bit of extra acceleration from the higher current available) we would be looking at two-hour schedules to Weymouth all day, plus a bit of extra speed from XC.

It would mean that there would be little work (if any) required to allow them to run in Cornwall. It would also be good as the 222's (apparently) have a faster acceleration than the 125's which would help with journey times beyond Plymouth.

I would expect that they would double up from London to Plymouth and then split with 5 coaches going on into Cornwall with the other 5 would head back to London with a set which had just come up from Penzance. As the train is often quiet west of Pymouth (other than the summer months).

Not sure what the 7 coach sets would be used for.

Sounds very likely. The question would be the length of the sets. Extending them back to 9-car would be ideal for the summer workings to Cornwall, but not so good for the rest of the year. If they stay roughly as they are (plus only one coach for the pan/transformer) then the shorter sets would be useful for Plymouth/Torbay trains and semi-fasts to Exeter or Westbury. However, there would be a stock shortage in the summer, so something would have to fill in for that. The remaining MkIIIs could do that if hauled by 67s, perhaps starting from Reading five minutes in front of the expresses to absorb passengers, then calling at only Exeter and Plymouth, letting the express overtake, then following it to Penzance.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

With sufficient current, I'd say that the SWML is a practical 125 route. From a lot of timing, a 5-WES used to get to 100 and hold it for miles and miles, so seven seconds a mile faster should see them saving quite a lot of time, five minutes on Basingstoke-Eastleigh alone.

The old REP/TC rakes - admittedly with far fewer other trains clogging up the line - used to put in rather eyebrow raising performances which would certainly not be tolerated these days with tighter monitoring! I once had a sub-hour journey non stop from Southampton Central to Waterloo, and that included a rather prolonged wait outside Waterloo for the platform to become available.

So it certainly could be done if enough cash was thrown at it, the wires started back at Waterloo and if a premium path could somehow be created.

 

[cle]

The old REP/TC rakes - admittedly with far fewer other trains clogging up the line - used to put in rather eyebrow raising performances which would certainly not be tolerated these days with tighter monitoring! I once had a sub-hour journey non stop from Southampton Central to Waterloo, and that included a rather prolonged wait outside Waterloo for the platform to become available.

So it certainly could be done if enough cash was thrown at it, the wires started back at Waterloo and if a premium path could somehow be created.

Yep it's remarkably straight - from Sandown you could picture trains going past at 125mph no problem. I reckon the speed could probably start from about just past Wimbledon and hold until Southampton Airport Parkway. Knocking even 10-15 mins off would be a huge benefit.