Elizabeth Line now has most cancellations

[Horizon22]

Actually it does, even in the core. One of the recurrent issues is uneven frequencies developing; last week at Custom House at 0800 (Tuesday 17 Oct), peak frequency normally 5 minutes, there was a westbound gap of 13 minutes. When it came in, rammed, the bulk of the substantial number now on the platform could not board. Next train seemingly 5 minutes behind, subsequently some just 2 minute intervals, then another more than 10 minutes.

Two days ago (Monday 23 Oct) the whole thing sat down late evening around 2300 for more than half an hour. Nothing seemingly cancelled so not in the figures, just a huge gap at all core points both ways.

The simplistic 2-platform terminus at Abbey Wood makes it very difficult to recover if there has been an incident, with trains queued up approaching for considerable periods. The Shenfield line can turn short at Gidea Park and probably elsewhere, but not this branch.

Although the “core” is arguably Paddington - Whitechapel not the Abbey Wood branch.

 

[Taunton]

Well, when it first opened, the "Core" was universally described as Paddington to Abbey Wood.

 

[Horizon22]

Well, when it first opened, the "Core" was universally described as Paddington to Abbey Wood.

Sure, but I think in service provision Paddington - Whitechapel is more relevant in that every Elizabeth line train (besides some peak and extreme hours Paddington / Liverpool Street trains) serve those stations.

 

[Craig1122]

No they’re standard TfL; most NR has 15 minutes now, including their direct main line equivalents (GWR & GA). Overground is also 30 minutes.

TfL’s compensation is actually surprising restrictive and they won’t pay out for things like extreme weather.

There was also a sneaky little caveat that journeys partly on other operators had a 60 minute threshold. Discovered this on the way home from Bristol when delayed by the Elizabeth Line. If GWR had caused the same delay they would have owed me £20

I see the web page has changed since and now doesn't make any sense at all! It talks about refunds for 30 or 60 minute delays but doesn't make clear the criteria for each. And it also talks about some customers having to call rather than just being able to submit on line like NR operators.

 

[Horizon22]

There was also a sneaky little caveat that journeys partly on other operators had a 60 minute threshold. Discovered this on the way home from Bristol when delayed by the Elizabeth Line. If GWR had caused the same delay they would have owed me £20

I see the web page has changed since and now doesn't make any sense at all! It talks about refunds for 30 or 60 minute delays but doesn't make clear the criteria for each. And it also talks about some customers having to call rather than just being able to submit on line like NR operators.

This is the relevant page - https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/refunds-and-replacements/overground-and-elizabeth-line-delays

You can submit online but not with a paper ticket. And there’s the caveat about not refunding for “security alerts” “bad weather” or even “passengers ill on a train”. It’s very, very restrictive.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

The simplistic 2-platform terminus at Abbey Wood makes it very difficult to recover if there has been an incident, with trains queued up approaching for considerable periods. The Shenfield line can turn short at Gidea Park and probably elsewhere, but not this branch.

The 2-platform terminus at Abbey Wood doesn't even seem to be able to cope with the normal timetable - with just about every train even during normal running being delayed a minute or so outside Abbey Wood waiting for a platform.

 

[Snow1964]

Perhaps things will change now the Elizabeth line concession has gone out to tender

1 buyer​

• Transport for London London

Description​

The contract is a new concession agreement for the Elizabeth line (ELC2). The contract will cover all aspects of train and passenger service operations over the ELC2 network.

Total Quantity or Scope​

The Elizabeth line is the most significant addition to London's transport network in a generation. The new railway is transforming life and travel in London and the south east: it is reducing journey times, creating additional capacity, transforming accessibility and providing a huge economic boost. The current concession agreement expires on 25 May 2025. The scope of the concession agreement will include train and passenger service operations over the whole of the Elizabeth line network, as well as the operation and management of stations. The Operator will be remunerated by a specified fee package of performance incentives, which may include either or both of performance bonuses for increased performance or deductions for below target performance. TfL's vision is to ensure the Elizabeth line continues to be a showcase for investment in TfL, rail and public transport by building on the legacy of the Crossrail Project and Elizabeth line through optimisation and improvement on current high levels of safety, performance and customer satisfaction whilst remaining adaptable to an evolving industry and changing customer needs. As well as this, the Elizabeth line is also at the heart of the Mayor of London's Transport Strategy and expected to enable the achievement of wider policy objectives. To support this vision, TfL has set out seven key objectives for the operation of the Elizabeth line. These are: • Achieve excellence in safety and sustainability across all aspects of the Elizabeth line; • Optimise the performance and cost of the Elizabeth line through continuous improvements, without sacrificing quality; • Maintain high and annually improve customer satisfaction accounting for increasing customer expectations and emerging technology trends; • Positively influence customer and stakeholder perception of Rail for London Limited (RfL) and the Elizabeth line by maintaining, developing and enhancing the Elizabeth line brand across London in partnership with RfL; • Manage and accommodate passenger and network growth at consistently high service levels, collaborating with RfL to deliver investment projects; • Maintain a flexible and dynamic approach to changes in the rail industry that directly and indirectly influence the Elizabeth line; and • Ensure the Elizabeth line is a great place to work, and its workforce is representative of the communities it serves.

Renewal Options​

The contract will is expected to be for an approximate initial period of seven (7) years with an option for RfL to extend the period by up to approximately twenty four (24) months and a separate option for RfL to extend the period by up to approximately seven (7) months.

Elizabeth Line 2 Concession Agreement [Notice]

The contract is a new concession agreement for the Elizabeth line (ELC2). The contract will cover a... A Utilities Contract Notice by Transport for London.

bidstats.uk

 

[Sunil_P]

Not sure if this has been mentioned elsewhere. I was on an eastbound Lizzie Line that stopped just outside Forest Gate, albeit with the first carriage in the platform, after a trespassing incident on Saturday the 28th. After half an hour the doors in the front carriage were opened and passengers were permitted to leave. Had to get the bus to Ilford! Checking RTT, the train reached Shenfield 50 minutes late!

 

[CastlebarKeith]

ls a 'knock on' effect of this, a reason why the Greenford shuttle is now getting more cancellations and delays than l ever remember, even when it reversed at Ealing Broadway.

 

[Thirteen]

Perhaps things will change now the Elizabeth line concession has gone out to tender

Elizabeth Line 2 Concession Agreement [Notice]

The contract is a new concession agreement for the Elizabeth line (ELC2). The contract will cover a... A Utilities Contract Notice by Transport for London.

bidstats.uk

I assume MTR will try and retain it but will be interesting who else will bid.

 

[Goldfish62]

The 2-platform terminus at Abbey Wood doesn't even seem to be able to cope with the normal timetable - with just about every train even during normal running being delayed a minute or so outside Abbey Wood waiting for a platform.

Do drivers step back like they do on a number of tube lines which have restricted termini? Eg, Brixton, Elephant, Stratford?

 

[whoosh]

Actually it does, even in the core. One of the recurrent issues is uneven frequencies developing; last week at Custom House at 0800 (Tuesday 17 Oct), peak frequency normally 5 minutes, there was a westbound gap of 13 minutes. When it came in, rammed, the bulk of the substantial number now on the platform could not board. Next train seemingly 5 minutes behind, subsequently some just 2 minute intervals, then another more than 10 minutes.

Two days ago (Monday 23 Oct) the whole thing sat down late evening around 2300 for more than half an hour. Nothing seemingly cancelled so not in the figures, just a huge gap at all core points both ways.

The simplistic 2-platform terminus at Abbey Wood makes it very difficult to recover if there has been an incident, with trains queued up approaching for considerable periods. The Shenfield line can turn short at Gidea Park and probably elsewhere, but not this branch.

See my link below. Headway frequencies do matter and there are financial penalties to the operator if they are not met.

Perhaps things will change now the Elizabeth line concession has gone out to tender.

The current operator has many measures of their performance evaluated, with regards to cancellations, skip-stopping to aid service recovery, and frequency headways.

Have a look at this article (scroll down to 'Learning from the Overground').

Purple Reign: How Crossrail Will Be Run

Building Crossrail is less than half the battle. What will really matter to passengers is how it will be run. We take a look at how it will operate.

www.londonreconnections.com

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Perhaps things will change now the Elizabeth line concession has gone out to tender

Elizabeth Line 2 Concession Agreement [Notice]

The contract is a new concession agreement for the Elizabeth line (ELC2). The contract will cover a... A Utilities Contract Notice by Transport for London.

bidstats.uk

It's out for tender? Quick.... everyone! Band together so we can put in a railforums tender! See if we can play trains and run a service better than the commercial non-enthusiast operators

 

[Spartacus]

Not like I said this would happen with the same style of service as the GTR core...

 

[DC1989]

One of the biggest issues at Abbey Wood is still the terrible levels of communication when there are problems. On Friday evening the boards said the next train wouldn't depart for another 25 minutes or so on platform 3 ...so people are looking around confused.. should they board on platform 4 where the boards say 30 mins departure...should they board on platform 3 where the boards say 23 minutes departure? Because you have no confidence that what train you're going to get on will in fact be the one to leave first.

I made the decision to cross over to platform 1 to get a Thameslink instead of waiting 25 minutes and of course as soon I begin crossing the P4 Elizabeth line leaves...oh I think so the boards are just wrong.. go back across and get on the P3 Elizabeth line...wait 10 minutes...someone comes through the carriages stating this train has now been cancelled

These issues are not as bad in the core (And even Woolwich, Canary Wharf etc) as there are staff members telling you through the tannoy to ignore the boards as the next train will be xx minutes to yy location. Abbey Wood staff just seem to hide in their cubby and close the door

 

[Dstock7080]

One of the biggest issues at Abbey Wood is still the terrible levels of communication when there are problems.

Abbey Wood staff just seem to hide in their cubby and close the door

Hopefully now that TfL has taken over staffing and ownership of Abbey Wood things may improve.

 

[Horizon22]

Perhaps things will change now the Elizabeth line concession has gone out to tender

Elizabeth Line 2 Concession Agreement [Notice]

The contract is a new concession agreement for the Elizabeth line (ELC2). The contract will cover a... A Utilities Contract Notice by Transport for London.

bidstats.uk

I doubt it. Cancellations are a symptom of intensive metro operation service recovery.

ls a 'knock on' effect of this, a reason why the Greenford shuttle is now getting more cancellations and delays than l ever remember, even when it reversed at Ealing Broadway.

Yes, because GWR drivers travel "pass" on Elizabeth line trains to West Ealing. If it's a two track railway the Elizabeth line can't serve West Ealing (no main line platform) so the GWR driver needs a taxi if they're about to work the shuttle.

Do drivers step back like they do on a number of tube lines which have restricted termini? Eg, Brixton, Elephant, Stratford?

Sometimes. Depends on the driver diagrams (which are not like London Underground drivers). 12tph still allows turnarounds of 7-8 minutes, so it isn't as bad but during disruption offers limited capacity although trains can be turned at Custom House if it gets really bad.

Hopefully now that TfL has taken over staffing and ownership of Abbey Wood things may improve.

It's been that way for over 4 years now, so don't think its a staffing issue.

 

[Samzino]

One of the biggest issues at Abbey Wood is still the terrible levels of communication when there are problems. On Friday evening the boards said the next train wouldn't depart for another 25 minutes or so on platform 3 ...so people are looking around confused.. should they board on platform 4 where the boards say 30 mins departure...should they board on platform 3 where the boards say 23 minutes departure? Because you have no confidence that what train you're going to get on will in fact be the one to leave first.

I made the decision to cross over to platform 1 to get a Thameslink instead of waiting 25 minutes and of course as soon I begin crossing the P4 Elizabeth line leaves...oh I think so the boards are just wrong.. go back across and get on the P3 Elizabeth line...wait 10 minutes...someone comes through the carriages stating this train has now been cancelled

These issues are not as bad in the core (And even Woolwich, Canary Wharf etc) as there are staff members telling you through the tannoy to ignore the boards as the next train will be xx minutes to yy location. Abbey Wood staff just seem to hide in their cubby and close the door

It's not a staff hiding at all issue. There are no platform staff at ABW. Only train coordinators, Alstom techs and cleaners will be there. Most of the staff are based on the gateline and only in emergency, degraded dispatch situation or severe delays required to be on platform.

It's more of a staff numbers specfic thing.

 

[Taunton]

Yet another morning peak of disorganisation, seemed to be two separate issues, westbound in the core and eastbound out on the GWML around Maidenhead, which both hit services running well up to that point. I noticed an eastbound Liz train being run ecs through Slough, presumably as some catch-up, but disappointing to the large crowd waiting on the platform ...

 

[Joliver]

Yet another morning peak of disorganisation, seemed to be two separate issues, westbound in the core and eastbound out on the GWML around Maidenhead, which both hit services running well up to that point. I noticed an eastbound Liz train being run ecs through Slough, presumably as some catch-up, but disappointing to the large crowd waiting on the platform ...

Yes, passenger pulled an egress in Westbourne Park resulting in a REC call. Thought it was handled quickly to be fair. Was on the move in around 20 minutes.

 

[Taunton]

Oh well. All over the shop in the evening as well, most services both ways seemed to lose 10-15 minutes between Paddington and Southall.

If people are going to stay on at Paddington AND pull an egress in the Westbourne Park sidings, leading to completely blowing the morning peak service for tens of thousands if they do so, can there not be a PA in the empty trains, just in case, "this train will wait here for a few minutes and then continue". There are enough irrelevant announcements on the Liz as it is, such as PA announcements on Heathrow trains that "Oyster is not valid beyond West Drayton", a separate branch the train will never reach.

 

[Acton1991]

Genuine question, why do they run freight trains in the morning peak on the GWML? Cancellations and delays this morning heading into central London - surely makes more sense for freight trains to run after the peak?

 

[Benjwri]

Genuine question, why do they run freight trains in the morning peak on the GWML? Cancellations and delays this morning heading into central London - surely makes more sense for freight trains to run after the peak?

Isn’t the issue more GWR late running and GWML infrastructure failures causing knock one at the moment?

As for the question, that’s when there are free paths, which are sought after on the section between Reading and London. Obviously the freight operators which use those paths make enough money from the service to justify the fines they have to pay if their trains are the cause of delays.

 

[Taunton]

Genuine question, why do they run freight trains in the morning peak on the GWML? Cancellations and delays this morning heading into central London - surely makes more sense for freight trains to run after the peak?

We discussed this before, and a key issue seems to be that if a freight turns up hours late at say Reading West, almost always through no fault of their own, such are their lengths nowadays there is nowhere to put them, and it's just easier to let it roll and accept the hit that Elizabeth trains get. They do seem to make just about the same speed overall, if allowed to run, compared to a Liz train stopping at every station, although the braking performance is obviously very different. But it doesn't square with eastbound Liz trains being expected to present to the minute at Westbourne Park to give the even frequency through the core.

I do recall, going back a generation, that the Southern Region had an absolute ban on freight in their London area during the peaks, but it seemed easier in those times to recess anything turning up late at that time.

 

[Horizon22]

Genuine question, why do they run freight trains in the morning peak on the GWML? Cancellations and delays this morning heading into central London - surely makes more sense for freight trains to run after the peak?

The main issue today has been the ongoing ETCS issues with trains continually failing to enter ETCS and Heathrow Express trains running on the relief lines.

 

[Taunton]

It does look to have been an absolute shambles today, with many westbound services, not just Liz Line but everything, losing about 20 minutes between Westbourne Park and Ealing alone. I see there's even skipping out on the GEML to try and catch up. I'm meant to be going that way tomorrow, and seriously wonder whether to get the car out instead.

Where a software upgrade, which is fundamentally what ETCS is, just does not work, is there any contingency provision in the programme to revert to the previous version, possibly with an overnight possession.

 

[Wolfie]

In raw numbers, yes. The more trains you run, the more trains will inevitably be cancelled.

But as a percentage of what should run it shouldn’t make any difference. As a very simplistic example, one hour’s shutdown on the Lizzie will result in 48 cancellations but on a branch line may result in 1 or 2 cancellations. But 48/48 is the same percentage as 2/2.

True but the impact of say 50% cancellations is potentially much lower albeit some trains might be quite crowded.

 

[Acton1991]

The main issue today has been the ongoing ETCS issues with trains continually failing to enter ETCS and Heathrow Express trains running on the relief lines.

Ah. The information we got at the station was due to a late running freight train!

It does look to have been an absolute shambles today, with many westbound services, not just Liz Line but everything, losing about 20 minutes between Westbourne Park and Ealing alone. I see there's even skipping out on the GEML to try and catch up. I'm meant to be going that way tomorrow, and seriously wonder whether to get the car out instead.

Not great again this morning - hope you made it!

 

[Horizon22]

Ah. The information we got at the station was due to a late running freight train!

Not great again this morning - hope you made it!

Could easily have been a combination of the two!

As per this thread, today’s issue is another broken rail / cracked crossing.

 

[SECR263]

Arr at Farringon, see no through trains. Get to Pad and was lucky to hear announcement saying go to Plat 10 fot Liz train and made it. Info dissemination is not great, could not the driver had made an announcement as train in auto mode. You cannot help defective track but info you can.