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Elizabeth Line Platform Gaps - BBC News

JamesT

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387s are roughly the same, 165s have a lower floor iirc.

To be absolutely clear 1100mm is not the national typical height. The standard height is 915mm, but the Elizabeth Line decided on a different height.
I think @mangyiscute was referring to the typical height of the floor of rolling stock. Apart from some Stadlers, almost nothing in the UK has the floor down at the platform standard height of 915mm.
https://stepfreelondon.uk/level-boarding-introduction/ has
Generally, services running on Network Rail-owned routes, including National Rail services, TfL rail and most of the Overground, have a rolling stock, or train fleet, with floors that are on average a whopping 185 mm higher than the platforms.
Which if the platforms are 915, suggests the average train floor is indeed 1100 and the Class 345s are not exceptional in this regard.
It also has a photo of a GWR train (387?) at Ealing Broadway to illustrate nicely.
 
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rob.rjt

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Freight are going to be the real losers from this gentleman's legal action, as I can't see any body choosing freight over the Elizabeth line.
That surely depends on what the outcome of the legal action is. It's possible that whoever is responsible will just pay up to make the legal action go away. Not having seen any statistics, it may even be cheaper in the long run to keep paying out on claims like this rather than make changes to platform heights.
 

NotATrainspott

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Getting to the standard platform height is not an engineering problem. It's a money problem. TfL don't have much cash to spend on fairly obviously useful improvements. If we want to solve the problem of level boarding in the TfL area then we need to think of ways that TfL can receive more income. Everything boils down to the cost, in the end.

It would be basically free for us to give TfL a license to print money, to fund all of these sorts of improvements. They own or otherwise control a lot of very valuable land and air rights basically by definition on top of major transport nodes. If we gave them the right to develop these, and to push the owners to neighbouring properties to develop theirs, then the funding could appear tomorrow.

Over-site development at stations is the right thing to do. People want homes, shops and offices as close as possible to major transport nodes. The more people close to the stations, the more passengers the public transport operators have paying for tickets and the busier existing services on existing infrastructure can be. It's a no-brainer.

Why can't TfL completely rebuild the station with over-site development? It's pretty much only because they wouldn't currently get planning approval for anything big enough to make the cost and complexity worth it. The local planning authority has little incentive to ignore the voices of NIMBY locals who don't want anything to change, ever.

So maybe the right way to present this is that if the locals care so much about their step-free access, they're going to need to allow densification and redevelopment. And if they don't like that, then they're just going to have to face a massive platform-train gap until the end of time. That seems about fair to me.
 

Benjwri

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I think @mangyiscute was referring to the typical height of the floor of rolling stock. Apart from some Stadlers, almost nothing in the UK has the floor down at the platform standard height of 915mm.
https://stepfreelondon.uk/level-boarding-introduction/ has

Which if the platforms are 915, suggests the average train floor is indeed 1100 and the Class 345s are not exceptional in this regard.
It also has a photo of a GWR train (387?) at Ealing Broadway to illustrate nicely.
And yet that is the standard, and a significant amount of money ahs been spent working towards it already. It's also worth remember steps down into a train are far worse for injuries, so a lower platform allows for more compatibility.
 

Crithylum

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The gaps at Ealing Broadway are certainly larger than typical, but not noteworthy imo. However that may be due to the step being still relatively easy for a young able-bodied person. I’ve definitely encountered gaps significantly worse, such as the London end of Clapham Jnc pt 12. I was discussing this at the dinner table and I was told that Hanwell is worse than EB gapwise.

If I remember, next time I am going there I will bring a measuring tape, and probably measure some other large gaps as comparison.

I think part of the problem is that the gap is big enough to cause problems, however not big enough that most people willingly ask for help if they need it. Combine that with the fact that it is a busy station where a lot of buses terminate, there will be a lot more opportunities for incidents like this than at some middle of nowhere station. Maybe it has just been bad luck that 2 incidents at this station have reached BBC news.

However all of the massive gaps I’ve personally experienced were on the outside of a relatively tight curve, which Ealing Broadway certainly isn’t. What I don’t understand is why they didn’t raise the platform, or lower the track to the 915mm standard. Would’ve been relatively cheap compared to the rest of the works, and especially to whole project.
 

david1212

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.....
To be absolutely clear 1100mm is not the national typical height. The standard height is 915mm, but the Elizabeth Line decided on a different height.
Given from the outset Elizabeth Line trains were to run well beyond the new central London section and not only to new platforms at existing stations ( putting aside both cost and physical space constraints ) I never understood how 1100mm was approved.
The trains are electric only so no large diesel engines, fuel tanks etc. to fit underfloor. Trusting Wikipedia is correct the TfL S7 & S8 stock has a floor height of 1005mm as against 1145mm for the 345 stock and a new wheel diameter of 770mm against 825mm. Based on this a platform height of 1000mm and correspondingly a train floor height of 1045mm would have been a reasonable compromise between (near) level boarding at new platforms and the step up at existing platforms.

References
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Underground_S7_and_S8_Stock
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_345
 

BrianW

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Getting to the standard platform height is not an engineering problem. It's a money problem. TfL don't have much cash to spend on fairly obviously useful improvements. If we want to solve the problem of level boarding in the TfL area then we need to think of ways that TfL can receive more income. Everything boils down to the cost, in the end.

It would be basically free for us to give TfL a license to print money, to fund all of these sorts of improvements. They own or otherwise control a lot of very valuable land and air rights basically by definition on top of major transport nodes. If we gave them the right to develop these, and to push the owners to neighbouring properties to develop theirs, then the funding could appear tomorrow.

Over-site development at stations is the right thing to do. People want homes, shops and offices as close as possible to major transport nodes. The more people close to the stations, the more passengers the public transport operators have paying for tickets and the busier existing services on existing infrastructure can be. It's a no-brainer.

Why can't TfL completely rebuild the station with over-site development? It's pretty much only because they wouldn't currently get planning approval for anything big enough to make the cost and complexity worth it. The local planning authority has little incentive to ignore the voices of NIMBY locals who don't want anything to change, ever.

So maybe the right way to present this is that if the locals care so much about their step-free access, they're going to need to allow densification and redevelopment. And if they don't like that, then they're just going to have to face a massive platform-train gap until the end of time. That seems about fair to me.
Ealing- 'Queen of the Suburbs'- lots of trees and green space opposite Ealing Broadway Station- from Googleearth:


It used to be possible to view Castles and Kings wizzing by til 'they' built a car parking deck over the tracks. The old GWR and Central Line Station was redeveloped back in the '60s, with what IIRC was a BBC office block, and the station linked with the District Line station (also still visible).

Ealing Broadway HAS changed a lot, despite NIMBY locals.

IMHO Step-free access is a reasonable hope and expectation for a civilised nation, the fifth richest in the world.
 

HSTEd

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IMHO Step-free access is a reasonable hope and expectation for a civilised nation, the fifth richest in the world.
That very much depends on your definition of richest. By GDP per capita (purchasing power parity) the UK is 28th.
Regardless, the problem here is level platforms physically will not fit unless you close the track to all but Crossrail trains.

That would require one of: de-facto abandoning most freight operations on the inner GWML, constructing a large fleet of dedicated small profile wagons, or constructing a bypass line around the platforms (which would probably end up as a whole new line).
Given the cost of the latter two options, the former is likely what would happen.

Personally, I am willing to accept this tradeoff, but the wider rail industry would not be happy given the rhetoric around freight operations.

This problem occurs because Crossrail decided to achieve level boarding by a brute force solution of selecting a bespoke platform height. This decision cannot now be feasibly undone, so we are stuck.

Why can't TfL completely rebuild the station with over-site development? It's pretty much only because they wouldn't currently get planning approval for anything big enough to make the cost and complexity worth it. The local planning authority has little incentive to ignore the voices of NIMBY locals who don't want anything to change, ever.
Unless you manage to get a pair of freight bypass tracks in, that won't really solve the problem!
Given how hemmed in the station is, I can't see that happening.
 
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SynthD

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Freight are going to be the real losers from this gentleman's legal action, as I can't see any body choosing freight over the Elizabeth line.
The freight has a legal contract to use the tracks. The court won’t wipe that out.

Remember there are two types of gaps. Vertical and horizontal. It could be possible to build that part of the station at 345 height and have the platform extend the now-considerable horizontal gap, but that would be a bad experience for GWR trains. I suspect there’s a reason the idea of platform extenders hasn’t come in to the real world.
 

edwin_m

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Given from the outset Elizabeth Line trains were to run well beyond the new central London section and not only to new platforms at existing stations ( putting aside both cost and physical space constraints ) I never understood how 1100mm was approved.
The trains are electric only so no large diesel engines, fuel tanks etc. to fit underfloor. Trusting Wikipedia is correct the TfL S7 & S8 stock has a floor height of 1005mm as against 1145mm for the 345 stock and a new wheel diameter of 770mm against 825mm. Based on this a platform height of 1000mm and correspondingly a train floor height of 1045mm would have been a reasonable compromise between (near) level boarding at new platforms and the step up at existing platforms.

References
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Underground_S7_and_S8_Stock
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_345
Heathrow Express had adopted 1100mm platforms already, and EL had to share the ones at the Heathrow stations.
 

Benjwri

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Personally, I am willing to accept this tradeoff, but the wider rail industry would not be happy given the rhetoric around freight operations.
So annihilation of any freight travel from the South West to the East, given there are very limited, or non existant, options for other routes, is a reasonable solution for an issue that only benefits a small area in outer London?
 

HSTEd

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So annihilation of any freight travel from the South West to the East, given there are very limited, or non existant, options for other routes, is a reasonable solution for an issue that only benefits a small area in outer London?
Well it benefits a line that now carries approximately 1 in 7 of all National Rail journeys. And potentially it impacts everyone using Crossrail from every station out to Reading.

Personally I don't really care about rail freight operations that much, but as I noted in the post, I realise I am very much in the minority on that.
 

Benjwri

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Well it benefits a line that now carries approximately 1 in 7 of all National Rail journeys. And potentially it impacts everyone using Crossrail from every station out to Reading.
I thought step free platforms for the Elizabeth Line would be incompatible with the GWR 387s. If so you can only do this to stations up to Slough, and regardless Maidenhead, Telford and Reading would be near impossible with the GWR shuttles. As I mentioned above it also severely limits GWR's Churchwood project, as a 915mm floor would be totally incompatible, and newer platforms built to this standard across the Western would have to be modified.

As for the 1 in 7 figure that's just misleading in my opinion. The Western side is the quieter of the two, and when you consider where journeys are actually being made, a very small fraction of that 1 in 7 will be to station platforms could be raised.
 
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So annihilation of any freight travel from the South West to the East, given there are very limited, or non existant, options for other routes, is a reasonable solution for an issue that only benefits a small area in outer London?
Yes.
 

MarlowDonkey

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Heathrow Express had adopted 1100mm platforms already,
This may have seemed to make sense when it was just a dedicated fleet of trains and dedicated platforms at Heathrow and Paddington with a non-stop service. Once the "Connect" service was introduced, stopping at most stations including Ealing Broadway on the way to Paddington, it starts to look a bit short sighted and following established height standards would have been a better longer term decision. Heathrow Connect was the predecessor to Elizabeth Line services.

Going back in time, what where door heights on stock that ran the Western Region services in the past? I'm thinking of Autocoaches, BR Suburbans, 117s and 121s, BR Mk1, Mk2 and Mk3s, 165/166 etc. For that matter have the platforms changed height over time?
 

Benjwri

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So for the benefit of a handful of stations we should stop significant freight flows, and break a fairly critical link? Even if there are other alternatives? And stop any other potential uses of the line by National Rail services?
 

geoffk

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I guess you don't live on or near a road which is going to get all the extra lorries then. It's been reported elsewhere on the Forum that freight stands to lose out on the ECML because of the clamour for extra fast passenger trains.
 

HSTEd

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I thought step free platforms for the Elizabeth Line would be incompatible with the GWR 387s. If so you can only do this to stations up to Slough, and regardless Maidenhead, Telford and Reading would be near impossible with the GWR shuttles.
Would the GWR shuttles continue to operate, or would we simply turn the relief lines entirely over to the Elizabeth line?
However, this is wandering from the topic of the thread, I would be happy to discuss it elsewhere however.
 

Horizon22

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Just three stops west at Southall, they did alter the platform heights on the relief lines, ready for the 345s.

Platform 4 (up Relief, the one causing problems at Ealing Broadway), had an enormous horizontal and vertical gap, made worse by the track cant away from the platform (couple of poor photos from 2005 here and here). Both Southall and Ealing Broadway have Platform 4 on the outside of a slight curve.

From Christmas 2015, at Southall the entire section beyond the canopy was demolished and rebuilt over a few months (with a metal temporary platform in between work taking place), while the remaining section was altered in height rather than a full rebuild. In addition, the track was re-aligned to reduce the horizontal gap. By mid-2016 the work was complete, and boarding trains became much easier for everyone. Platform 3 (down Relief) was also adjusted for clearances, actually being lowered slightly in the end, while both Main line platforms remain untouched and are still quite low, something that still also affects Ealing Broadway today if trains stop on those lines.

It's nothing on Platform 2 or Platform 1!

Platform 4 is less noticeable as you walk down the platform I find.

The main issue being how the 345s require level boarding in the central section, but then have to deal with variable platform heights at other locations.

There really is no easy answer to this without a lot of money, time and inconveniences for the majority of the users. I get the "something must be done" crowd, and perhaps Harrington humps are the answer at key locations (around carriage 5 would make the most sense).

Would the GWR shuttles continue to operate, or would we simply turn the relief lines entirely over to the Elizabeth line?
However, this is wandering from the topic of the thread, I would be happy to discuss it elsewhere however.

Try to fit a 9-car 345 down most of those branches...
 

Horizon22

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I don't think you realise how important freight is on the GWML or the country nationally. They don't help Elizabeth line's performance much, but to just sever it completely for an extended period of time is ludicrous.

Why can't TfL completely rebuild the station with over-site development? It's pretty much only because they wouldn't currently get planning approval for anything big enough to make the cost and complexity worth it. The local planning authority has little incentive to ignore the voices of NIMBY locals who don't want anything to change, ever.

Well the station has been substantially redeveloped already in the last 3 years. It's nothing to do with NIMBYism. It's just various bits not coordinating and evidently TfL / Network Rail believing the risk was suitably managed to "as low as reasonably practicable".
 

HSTEd

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Try to fit a 9-car 345 down most of those branches...
Why would they be going down the Branches?
West Ealing, Slough and Maidenhead all have platforms that can be dedicated to the relevant branches whilst still providing two dedicated platforms for the Main and relief lines don't they?

EDIT:

I thought the "GWR shuttle" remark was a reference to the relief line service out to Didcot, I apologise for the confusion.
 

Horizon22

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Why would they be going down the Branches?
West Ealing, Slough and Maidenhead all have platforms that can be dedicated to the relevant branches whilst still providing two dedicated platforms for the Main and relief lines don't they?

You were referring to "GWR shuttles" sorry I thought you meant the branches!

GWR trains only now stop (routinely) at Slough, Maidenhead and Twyford all of which are stations they manage. Nor does there appear to be a particular issue there. Late at night / early morning though there are some GWR run services at Elizabeth line managed stations although these services could theoretically be staffed and run by Elizabeth line.
 
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I don't think you realise how important freight is on the GWML or the country nationally. They don't help Elizabeth line's performance much, but to just sever it completely for an extended period of time is ludicrous.
I do realise the strategic importance, but ultimately I feel it matters less than the millions using the Elizabeth line.
 

stuu

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I do realise the strategic importance, but ultimately I feel it matters less than the millions using the Elizabeth line.
~8m tons of aggregates is sent out from Somerset by train every year, most of it ends up somewhere in London, via the GWML. How would you propose that is delivered instead?
 

rower40

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If buses can lower their air suspension to let mobility-impaired riders off and on, why not trains?
 

edwin_m

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Lorries can move aggregate in a more space efficient manner than private motor cars can move commuters.
But trains can do both better than road vehicles. Each aggregate train takes somewhere around 100 lorry movements off the roads.
This may have seemed to make sense when it was just a dedicated fleet of trains and dedicated platforms at Heathrow and Paddington with a non-stop service. Once the "Connect" service was introduced, stopping at most stations including Ealing Broadway on the way to Paddington, it starts to look a bit short sighted and following established height standards would have been a better longer term decision. Heathrow Connect was the predecessor to Elizabeth Line services.
Unfortunately HEX got there first, creating the technical difficulties of lowering the platforms at Heathrow and the commercial ones of persuading the airport either to buy new trains or to accept a degradation to their premium service. Also, at the time EL was being specified, there was no train on the UK market offering level boarding to a 915mm platform and also a 90mph top speed, which is probably critical to maintaining timetables on the GWML in particular.
 

Taunton

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It would be basically free for us to give TfL a license to print money, to fund all of these sorts of improvements. They own or otherwise control a lot of very valuable land and air rights basically by definition on top of major transport nodes. If we gave them the right to develop these, and to push the owners to neighbouring properties to develop theirs, then the funding could appear tomorrow.
Contrary to much expectation, oversite developments, particularly over something as complex and in use as a railway station, do not give anything like the revenue that those not involved may think. The additional cost, and cost risk, compared to adjacent empty sites is just not worth it.
 

WAO

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If we had an ORR fit for purpose it would have addressed this wider problem successfully much earlier.

A retired senior NR manager friend recently tripped boarding a SWT train and was quite badly hurt.

Stoically, he just stayed at home and recovered.

WAO
 

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