Ellesmere Port to Helsby line

[merlodlliw]

I did mention in previous threads, when the line to Ellesmere port was electrified
there was money to take it to Helsby, However Shell objected due to 3rd rail flashovers if there was an escape of petrogas, This was the reason why its still DMU.

The funding pot was Hooton to Chester and Hooton to Helsby, the later ending at the port.

 

[robert2000]

oh so there is still money available

if they can electrify either kirkby to wigan or ormskirk to preston, it will create more jpurney opportunities.

Can anyone tell me why it was too expensive to electriofy the borderlands line to wrexham?

 

[nedchester]

Can anyone tell me why it was too expensive to electriofy the borderlands line to wrexham?

Because you could electrify quite cheaply under BR (where Chester and Ellesmere Port were done) and projects like that nowadays cost 10 times as much............I'll leave you to work out why........!

 

[merlodlliw]

oh so there is still money available

if they can electrify either kirkby to wigan or ormskirk to preston, it will create more jpurney opportunities.

Can anyone tell me why it was too expensive to electriofy the borderlands line to wrexham?

Lots of info about this on the web. NR put forward a costing that was in fantasy
land.

 

[Green Lane]

Today I rode on the Ellesmere Port-Helsby line as this thread had got me interested in it.

I travelled from Birkenhead to Liverpool via Ellesmere Port, Helsby and then onto Warrington Bank Quay. I then walked to Warrington Central, which was an opportunity to explore Warrington a bit and I then took a train from there onto Liverpool as I had a few things to do in Liverpool today.

I then did it all in reverse on the return leg.

It was the first time in my life that I've ever gone over from Birkenhead to Liverpool and back without going via one of the Mersey tunnels.

I got the 06:56 from Ellesmere Port to Helsby. One passenger actually alighted the train as I boarded this morning. Although, I then had the entire train to myself all the way to Helsby.

I got the 15:17 from Helsby on the way back, again I had the entire train to myself.

In both cases, the guard just wanted to know where I was getting off so that the train didn't actually have to come to a complete stop at the two intermediate stations.

Must admit it all seemed a bit surreal to me, having an entire train to myself for the entire (albeit very short) route.

I noticed that the train timetables at Helsby only mention the Arriva Trains Wales services and I could not find times for the Northern Rail Ellesmere Port services. (unless I failed to find them - which is possible). Just as well I'd remembered the times. Likewise I don't think the timetable on Platform 2 at Ellesmere Port gave times for outgoing trains in the Ellesmere Port->Helsby direction, although I may well have misread it. I could see the times for the other direction though.

Shame the service isn't more frequent though, the connections were really good, on the way out at least. I'd no sooner sat down on platform 2 at Ellesmere Port this morning and the Helsby train rolled in. Likewise when I got to Helsby, really didn't have to wait long at all for the Warrington train.

Took a couple of photos:-

This is the train I had just alighted at Ellesmere port on the way back this afternoon. I took this quick snap from the footbridge:-

As far as I know, no-one boarded at Ellesmere Port. It would depart a few minutes later to Helsby.

Really started to smell the deisel fumes at this point :-

 

[robert2000]

thnx for the pictures, can i ask what ticket you bought in birkenhead?

 

[Green Lane]

thnx for the pictures, can i ask what ticket you bought in birkenhead?

Sure, as I did the journey on a whim I probably didn't get the best tickets though.

The first ticket I bought was an off-peak day return from Green Lane to Helsby which was £3.70 IIRC.

My original plan was to go hiking in Helsby (up Helsby Hill) yesterday, and then return passing through Birkenhead, but continuing to Liverpool via the Wirral Line using my TRIO ticket in the afternoon.

However, I then looked at the forecast and realised that with the weather being so dismal I would visit the Warrington Museum and Art gallery instead as at least it is indoors! So I totally changed my plan and decided to go on to Liverpool via Warrington instead, particularly since it's only a 22 minute journey from Warrington Central on one of the faster services.

So already holding the above ticket, I then bought another ticket Helsby-Liverpool stations off-peak day return for £4.90 IIRC which I understand is valid via Warrington stations.

No doubt the whole trip could have been done cheaper, but I spent £8.60 total I think, and got to ride on 8 trains, so not bad overall!

Also noted in the local paper this morning, the Monday 31st May (Bank holiday) service is not running in the morning between Ellesmere Port and Helsby. Thought I'd better mention it in case anyone is thinking of doing it!

Have to say I really enjoyed travelling on the line, although it was all too short.

7am on Saturday morning, it was very atmospheric. No-one on the train but me, the rain was belting down relentlessly under thick, dark cloud - it was grim. The internal lighting of the train actually seemed relatively bright. The grimy, industrial complex of Stanlow completely filled my view. Of course, I'll really have to do it again some time, I loved it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
More photos:-

The 15:34 service from Ellesmere Port to Helsby departs (completely empty):-

This is the closest I could get to getting both Northern Rail and Merseyrail trains on the same photo. The Merseyrail train in the extreme distance didn't arrive until around 15:39 or so, about five minutes after the Helsby service departed.

Another shot from the footbridge, but showing more of the side of the train:-

View from Helsby station footbridge (was quite a dismal day) Alas no trains were present at the time:-

Helsby signal box on platforms 2/3. The signs on the left are the various awards for "Best Kept station".

The work on Lime Street frontage has finally been completed and the main entrance re-opened to passengers:-

Approaching Warrington Bank Quay on the way back. The train on platform one is the 13:22 to Liverpool Lime Street, which I didn't get because I was returning via Helsby:-

 

[northwichcat]

oh so there is still money available

if they can electrify either kirkby to wigan or ormskirk to preston, it will create more jpurney opportunities.

Can anyone tell me why it was too expensive to electriofy the borderlands line to wrexham?

3rd rail electrification was ruled out to Preston in the various RUS due to not being economically viable. You've got more hope of dual powered DC+diesel trains being built.

 

[robert2000]

class 156, i think they use them on the mid cheshire line aswell

those other pictures were cool aswell.

 

[northwichcat]

class 156, i think they use them on the mid cheshire line aswell.

They do appear on Mid-Cheshire but 90% of Mid-Cheshire line services are 142s and 150s.

There is a 156 that runs the 12:17 Manchester to Chester but gets switched for a 150 at Chester so the 156 can be used on the afternoon Helsby to Ellesemere Port services before reaching the Liverpool to Manchester via Warrington line in time for the evening peak.

The lines where you normally see Northern 156s are:
Manchester Airport to Liverpool Lime Street (all booked for 156s)
Liverpool Lime St to Wigan
Manchester Oxford Rd to Liverpool LS (mix of 142s and 156s with an odd 150 thrown in)
Hazel Grove to Preston (mix of 150s and 156s with an odd 180 thrown in)
Buxton to Manchester (mix of 150s and 156s)
Manchester Victoria to Southport (mix of 142s, 150s and 156s)
Manchester Victoria to Clitheroe (mix of 150s and 156s with an odd 153 thrown in)
Liverpool to Blackpool North (mix of 142s, 150s, 156s)
Manchester Victoria to Blackpool North (mix of 150s, 156s, 180s with odd 142s and 153s thrown in)
Man Vic to Huddersfield (mix of 142s, 150s and 156s)

Incidentally I travelled on the 19:5x Liverpool to Warrington Northern service recently which is booked for a 156 and it was 98% empty. I also travelled on the 21:17 Manchester to Chester service which was a 142 and more than half full, so there do seem to be many 156s running around half-empty on shorter Northern services while 142s are running around a lot fuller on longer services.

 

[Pumbaa]

The lines where you normally see Northern 156s are:
Manchester Airport to Liverpool Lime Street (all booked for 156s)

Ha! Hit and miss to be fair, they tend to be alright during the day, but peaks the 156s tend to get swapped out for 150s. Had a 142 on it last week

 

[MidnightFlyer]

When they cut the mid-afternoon service back from WBQ to Helsby, this madde the service a lot more inaccessable - it all started when they electrified Hooton-Ellesmere Port

 

[robert2000]

a lunchtime service would be great in both directions

 

[merlodlliw]

a lunchtime service would be great in both directions

Unless some one pays for it, its not going to happen,Northern wont pay.

Also is there a demand for an extra service.

 

[northwichcat]

Ha! Hit and miss to be fair, they tend to be alright during the day, but peaks the 156s tend to get swapped out for 150s. Had a 142 on it last week

Yes but booked doesn't mean what turns up. Any train cleared for the line which crews can sign can turn up. I've heard people saying a single 153 has filled in for the 180 diagram between Victoria and Blackpool.

 

[Green Lane]

Unless some one pays for it, its not going to happen,Northern wont pay.

Also is there a demand for an extra service.

It is unfortunate, as you rightly mentioned Shell objected to the electrification plan through Stanlow refinery due to saftey reasons.

This has effectively marginalised the line.

The non-electrified section (to Helsby) is a mere five miles long according to Google Earth and journey times are in the range 10 to 12 minutes, according to the PDF timetable I have.

I'm all in favour of rail transport over bus alternatives, particularly where ongoing rail connections are available.

However, there's no getting away from the fact that there is an hourly daytime bus service (the 36) from Runcorn to Ellesmere Port and back, calling at Frodsham, Helsby, Ince & Elton and Thornton-le-Moors (near the front of Stanlow Oil Refinery), not to mention Cheshire Oaks designer outlet (where a proposed rail link was never built).

I can see the obvious benefits that would have resulted if the line had have been electrified to Helsby, namely, direct rail services from Helsby to the Wirral and Liverpool and also good, frequent connections from Ellesmere Port to Chester, Warrington and Manchester (only one change needed at Helsby). Also there would've been a half hourly direct service from Ince&Elton & Stanlow to Liverpool. I'm sure these things would have benefitted the local economy tremendously (the amount of boarded-up pubs and shops in Helsby is alarming and Elton is a rather large village to miss out on a good rail connection). I'm also well aware the line did see a good, frequent service prior to the Merseyrail expansion to Ellesmere Port.

So I wish the electrification of this branch had happened, but of course I completely understand & respect the quite sensible safety reasons why it didn't happen.

However, now the line is in the situation it is in, my own feeling is that most people in the area (barring motorists) have switched to the comparitively frequent bus services by now (I witnessed this first hand on Saturday, with the local bus stops seeing good use), which is a bit of a shame, but that's the situation as it is nowadays.

I wouldn't like to see this happen, but it wouldn't terribly surprise me if the five mile non-electrified branch eventually became frieght only, which is one of the reasons I'm glad I have finally travelled on it, whilst I had the chance.

 

[robert2000]

well, i will use the line a lot more if im able to, for example if i went shopping in ellesmere port, i can come back via helsby.

if they notice that passenger usage is going up then they will keep the service running.

 

[Green Lane]

well, i will use the line a lot more if im able to, for example if i went shopping in ellesmere port, i can come back via helsby.

if they notice that passenger usage is going up then they will keep the service running.

I hope you're right. I hope they do keep it running. If they do I'd be happy to use the line again also.

A first step they need to do though is to put up the correct, current timetables at Helsby, Ellesmere Port and at the two intermediate stations.

Because at the moment, and I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, none of the four stations have the correct timetables present at the station.

Ellesmere Port had the out of date winter "City Line" timetable still up and was also missing the all important Ellesmere Port->Helsby times.

Helsby only had the Arriva Trains Wales times, with no mention of Northern Rail.

The two intermediate stations, I did not see any timetables looking out of the train window (And I've also walked past the outside of both stations previously), but admittedly I could have possibly missed them.

I read somewhere on a forum that these so-called "parliamentary trains" are often run without the timetables being publicly advertised, as the idea is to discourage usage, but I'm not convinced that's the case here.

If this were a true "parliamentary service" then could they not just reduce it down to one train a week in one direction (e.g. like they do with Chester->Runcorn via the Halton Curve?). The fact that they are running four trains a day each way (with some extended to/from Warrington) seems to me to suggest this is slightly more useful than an absolute bare service. I have wondered why this is. Also the times are advertised in Northern Rail timetable number 15.

I can't claim the line is generally convenient to be used from my location, as Liverpool, Shotton, Chester give me the best connections to Manchester, North Wales, Crewe etc.. but still for some locations south of the River Mersey it could be potentially handy for me. In any case, I'm sure I'd have travelled a lot more on it if they'd have kept frequent services running on the line.

 

[merlodlliw]

I have read the last two of Green Lanes threads,I must say they are.

1.Compact
2. Concise
3. Polished

They are a very fair reflection of a little used line, a journey taken on Northerns most Westerly fringe, landlocked between ATW & Merseytravel the fact that the 3rd rail was lost between the Port and Helsby, with a token service now means if a check was done by the funders of this line for passengers, not many users would howl in protest.
So we have 14 hourly buses a day, it appears well used, and a DMU with the average passengers being 2.

As for ATWs station at Helsby not having the info on the service, little surprise,as for Northerns stations, Stanlow,Ince etc not having correct info simply means no one at Northern is bothered about the line.

I would like to know who in fact funds this service, and who Polices it, its a sorry tale.
The common sense would have been Merseytravel between the Port & Helsby, alas gone forever, as Merseytravel is all electric.
enjoy it while you can, the passenger lines days must be numbered on current statistics.
M

 

[robert2000]

well i hope you are wrong, i am going to use this service as much as i can, and i hope that others will follow.

 

[merlodlliw]

well i hope you are wrong, i am going to use this service as much as i can, and i hope that others will follow.

Yes Robert of Deva, I hope it remains open, but unlike the HOWL & coast line to Abermaw & beyond, the Shell service does have other forms of public transport, I suspect the North West agencies(I presume fund the service) will be looking at cutting funding for little used services where there is a well used alternative running hourly.

Dont get me wrong, I am all for rail travel, but it is the daft way tocs have been allocated services around Chesters area. For the life of me, to have three tocs on the same 5 mile line managing stations, the Port Merseytravel at one end with Helsby the All Wales franchise at the other end, with two tiny landlocked stations in between at Stanlow & Ince managed by Northern, travel time 12 minutes. Again the simple fact that when there was money to 3rd rail the line to Helsby & offer a half hour service, as the line runs through one of the largest refineries in the Country, 3rd rail was too dangerous to install, however in the planning for 3rd rail to Helsby, BR strangely never consulted Shell, now 3rd rail installation is prohibitive as was found out on the
Wrexham to Bidston link, in BRs days we did not have so many profit centres as now occurs with Net Rail, but in fairness Net Rail do consult as BR did not have to, but Net Rail seem to drag there feet over proposed projects, the Wrexham semi doubling to Saltney being an example.

my opinion

M

 

[robert2000]

yes the wrexham to saltney doubling, now thats been kept quiet for a while, dont think ive forgotten about it. lol

 

[merlodlliw]

yes the wrexham to saltney doubling, now thats been kept quiet for a while, dont think ive forgotten about it. lol

Very quiet at the moment its going through a Net Rail GRIP costings exercise,
the results are already over half a year late with no sign of a result yet,I know the planner will not agree with me, but with the money on the table for this since late 2008, and with cuts due everywhere, so since the never ending delay goes on from Net Rail, we may loose the semi double track, the dynamic curve between the stations is already dropped we hear.

As Net Rail is the only body allowed to cost, one wonders what the hell is going on. I am also told from informed sources the £Ms for this scheme is not ring fenced, another worry.

 

[northwichcat]

Dont get me wrong, I am all for rail travel, but it is the daft way tocs have been allocated services around Chesters area.

Wrexham-Bidston, North Wales to Manchester, Birmingham to North Wales and North Wales to Crewe used to be FNW routes and Chester used to be a FNW depot. Then the Welsh Assembly interferred. The changes has meant a lot of extra ECS movements between Manchester and Chester as Northern have to get Newton Heath units and crews to Chester and ATW have to get Chester units and crews to Manchester.

 

[merlodlliw]

Wrexham-Bidston, North Wales to Manchester, Birmingham to North Wales and North Wales to Crewe used to be FNW routes and Chester used to be a FNW depot. Then the Welsh Assembly interferred. The changes has meant a lot of extra ECS movements between Manchester and Chester as Northern have to get Newton Heath units and crews to Chester and ATW have to get Chester units and crews to Manchester.

I agree, before the All Welsh Franchise, I was happy with the service from FNW and dare I say Central, who put new trains on the Chester Shrewsbury run.
OK we have a hourly service Wrexham to Chester, but that was in the contract so any TOC would have to do this.

ATW Welsh managed stations such as Runcorn East is barmy when Northern
Manage Stanlow & Ince, also ATW send empty trains to Manchester & Brum from Chester at just after 4.00a.m. to do a return to Llandudno & Holyhead.

 

[robert2000]

ok ive done a lot of thinking, ive decided that Northern rail should get their hands on a class 139 for this route, someone suggested this in an earlier post I think.

the service could start from liverpool via halton curve

the service pattern would be every 2 hours from 6am to 10pm, and again see how this gets on.
plus there will be chester to liverpool via halton curve every 2 hours.
giving helsby and frodsham some extra services an hour and halton curve getting an hourly train service. 1 from the port and 1 from chester and vice versa.

what do you think of my idea?

 

[Anvil1984]

Can't say I'm with you on it, a PPM for Helsby to Ellesmere Port maybe but putting a 40mph unit out between Runcorn and Liverpool is just asking for trouble

 

[First class]

ok ive done a lot of thinking, ive decided that Northern rail should get their hands on a class 139 for this route, someone suggested this in an earlier post I think.

the service could start from liverpool via halton curve

the service pattern would be every 2 hours from 6am to 10pm, and again see how this gets on.
plus there will be chester to liverpool via halton curve every 2 hours.
giving helsby and frodsham some extra services an hour and halton curve getting an hourly train service. 1 from the port and 1 from chester and vice versa.

what do you think of my idea?

Wouldn't fancy it myself. A Cl.142 hitting an express was bad, I can't imagine a Cl.139 faring well against a 350/390 at 90mph on the WCML. Also, the Cl.139 would suffer severe overcrowding between Liverpool and Runcorn as people tend to get the next train available, and rarely consider unit type.

I personally believe that in the next 5 years, there will be a surplus of some rolling stock displaced by 172s or similar units. A Cl.153 doing that same run (Liverpool-Ellesmere Port via Helsby) is a lot more viable.

As for the frequency, the people of the villages of Ince and Elton (the biggest potential market) are not likely to use the train there anyway for several reasons:

1) Most business commuting will be to Chester which is inconvenient (and slower) to get to by train compared to car. Even with increased frequency on this line, still only hourly from Helsby to Chester or requires a change at Ellesmere Port AND Hooton.
2) Most households will have at least one car anyway due to the poor, almost non-existent public transport links and the fact that they are very conveniently located near the M53.


My "solution" would be to run Liverpool-Hooton via Warrington and Ellesmere Port using a 2-car unit or 153+153, but to time it so that a 15 minute (combined) service is provided between ELP and HOO. Just for fun though, a 73+mk3+73 combo would be interesting, if impractical.

For the time being, I would extend the local Liverpool-Warrington BQ services which are roughly hourly. I would consult with Stanlow with regards to shift patterns as to find out when the first/last trains would be best timed to be suited.

 

[merlodlliw]

Stanlow only as a fraction of the employees it used to have a few years ago, without a third rail to Chester or L/Pool from Helsby I can not see any improvement.

1.While Shell remains, no third rail ever due to flash overs, if Shell goes the line is doomed anyway.

2.This silly jungle of tocs at both ends of this landlocked line who would oppose any attack on fare extraction by Northern.