Ely North Junction upgrade alternatives

[Magdalia]

I'm not convinced by the bolded bit. Ely-Peterborough may well only justify 2tph of local journeys, but if it's the route that is used by people making much longer journeys (such as Cambridge-Peterborough/the North or Ipswich-Leicester) then presumably that automatically justifies having more longer distance trains running over it to accommodate those passengers.

If there was spare capacity between Ely and Peterborough, then I would agree, but there isn't.

If capacity is limited, and reducing Ely-Peterborough to 2tph would allow that capacity to be more productively used for freight, then that's what should happen.

 

[Maltazer]

I haven't tried to work out timings but have wondered if Ely-Ipswich could be hourly by running trains around a triangle Ipswich-Cambridge-Ely-Ipswich and in the opposite direction too. It would provide more capacity on the busy Cambridge-Ely route too.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Once you do away with all those single leads at Ely, the capacity that is unlocked is huge. Same with redoubling Haughley.

Three passenger trains an hour between Ely and Peterborough does not clog up capacity on that stretch of line, nor does a reversal at Ely with the Norwich-Liverpool cause too much chaos at Ely. It’s 28 miles between Ely and Peterborough on a double track route with only three stations. You don’t need to do much, if anything to it but a few well placed IBs might ease things, if you really couldn’t find a timetable solution.

Norwich-Liverpool is well used, as are the other two services across to Peterborough - all three now need lengthening and, from what I see, with stock that has some decent luggage space for larger cases.

What hacks me off is when people say any line should be for freight only or passenger only. I had this 20 years ago when I was at Anglia and Freightliner wanted the lines to themselves and all passengers to go by bus. There is room for both if it is properly done and, apart from Ely, it wouldn’t cost that much to do. A lot of it, after Ely is done, is just timetabling.

I don’t think combining a service group like Oxford to Cambridge with others that go into East Anglia is a great idea. Far too much like the old combined Central Trains services beloved by their then planning expert. The delays those services caused all over the network were legendary. If anything it is the Norwich-Stansted services that should be looked at first if you wanted to do that.

Ipswich to Ely via Cambridge is a non starter because of the single track tunnel restricting the possible TPH. It’s such a roundabout route that people would just hit the A14. It would also increase Thetford as a railhead rather than using Bury St Edmunds for those punters wanting to go to Peterborough and beyond.

 

[Maltazer]

Ipswich to Ely via Cambridge is a non starter because of the single track tunnel restricting the possible TPH. It’s such a roundabout route that people would just hit the A14. It would also increase Thetford as a railhead rather than using Bury St Edmunds for those punters wanting to go to Peterborough and beyond.

I don't know if you were replying to me there, but I just want to clarify that the suggestion to run in a triangle was to provide both Ely-Ipswich and Cambridge-Ipswich direct services, not Ely-Ipswich via Cambridge. The reason is to avoid the long layovers a simple Ely-Ipswich shuttle would require.

 

[TheBigD]

Once you do away with all those single leads at Ely, the capacity that is unlocked is huge. Same with redoubling Haughley.

Three passenger trains an hour between Ely and Peterborough does not clog up capacity on that stretch of line, nor does a reversal at Ely with the Norwich-Liverpool cause too much chaos at Ely. It’s 28 miles between Ely and Peterborough on a double track route with only three stations. You don’t need to do much, if anything to it but a few well placed IBs might ease things, if you really couldn’t find a timetable solution.

Norwich-Liverpool is well used, as are the other two services across to Peterborough - all three now need lengthening and, from what I see, with stock that has some decent luggage space for larger cases.

What hacks me off is when people say any line should be for freight only or passenger only. I had this 20 years ago when I was at Anglia and Freightliner wanted the lines to themselves and all passengers to go by bus. There is room for both if it is properly done and, apart from Ely, it wouldn’t cost that much to do. A lot of it, after Ely is done, is just timetabling.

I don’t think combining a service group like Oxford to Cambridge with others that go into East Anglia is a great idea. Far too much like the old combined Central Trains services beloved by their then planning expert. The delays those services caused all over the network were legendary. If anything it is the Norwich-Stansted services that should be looked at first if you wanted to do that.

Ipswich to Ely via Cambridge is a non starter because of the single track tunnel restricting the possible TPH. It’s such a roundabout route that people would just hit the A14. It would also increase Thetford as a railhead rather than using Bury St Edmunds for those punters wanting to go to Peterborough and beyond.

Of the 3 absolute block sections along the line, Three Horseshoes to Whittlesea and vv already has IBs. The other 2 sections, Whittlesea to Kings Dyke, and Stonea to Manea do not.

 

[Bald Rick]

Once you do away with all those single leads at Ely, the capacity that is unlocked is huge. Same with redoubling Haughley.

I don’t like to contradict you good Sir, but doubling the single leads at Ely does almost nothing for capacity on its own. There’s a lot of level crossing work that needs doing, and some signalling (as you say) to enable the extra capacity. That’s why the programme is the ‘Ely Area Capacity Enhancement’ rather than just Ely North Jn, and the consultations explain (briefly) the work that needs to be done at various level crossings.

 

[higthomas]

I'm not convinced by the bolded bit. Ely-Peterborough may well only justify 2tph of local journeys, but if it's the route that is used by people making much longer journeys (such as Cambridge-Peterborough/the North or Ipswich-Leicester) then presumably that automatically justifies having more longer distance trains running over it to accommodate those passengers.

Whilst I'd absolutely love more trains along that line, I feel the priorities should really be longer trains, and speeding things up.
The Cross-Country trains always seem overcrowded yet are only 2 or 3 carriages long. But, on the other hand, heading from Cambridge, unless your destination is near the ECML, it's still normally quicker and cheaper via London, which really limits the usefulness of the line.

 

[Clarence Yard]

I don’t like to contradict you good Sir, but doubling the single leads at Ely does almost nothing for capacity on its own. There’s a lot of level crossing work that needs doing, and some signalling (as you say) to enable the extra capacity. That’s why the programme is the ‘Ely Area Capacity Enhancement’ rather than just Ely North Jn, and the consultations explain (briefly) the work that needs to be done at various level crossings.

It is the degree of level crossing work that I would probably challenge. I have had this elsewhere when I have put on extra services and challenged it successfully as it was all too obviously being taken as an opportunity to do some gold plated upgrading to the crossings. I am not a fan of NR level crossing modelling, as you might have gathered because, amongst other things, it takes no cognisance of historic traffic levels, only current ones.

What we are probably talking about is only 6 TPH in each direction between Ely and Peterborough, 3 passenger and 3 freight.

 

[Maltazer]

At this point I'd say go back and read the first page of this thread, because otherwise we'll be just going round in circles regarding the crossings...

 

[Farigiraf]

But, on the other hand, heading from Cambridge, unless your destination is near the ECML, it's still normally quicker and cheaper via London, which really limits the usefulness of the line.

Cambridge to anywhere in the Northeast is usually cheaper and faster via Peterborough:

Cambridge to Edinburgh via Peterborough, 4h 49 + 30min wait, around £80
Cambridge to Edinburgh via London Kings Cross, 5h 15 + 45 minutes wait, around £110

Train was packed towards Peterborough just from Stansted morning traffic

 

[Clarence Yard]

At this point I'd say go back and read the first page of this thread, because otherwise we'll be just going round in circles regarding the crossings...

I already have taken the first page into account. I support a bridge option for Queen Adelaide and moving from half barriers to full barriers for some of the AHB crossings on the Ely-Peterborough stretch because the road traffic levels and likely downtimes would demand it but I would be looking very carefully if someone tries to gold plate any UWC or minor crossing.

I think, from memory, the Ely scheme has to take into account over 100 level crossings, quite apart from Queen Adelaide, so it isn’t a trivial matter in the scheme of things to do.

The real question for me is if the Government is really going to fund this, rather than just saying it will. In which financial years will the funding be budgeted into, by how much in each year and when is the target completion date? Or are we in for more “discussion delay” by the Treasury?

 

[Maltazer]

I already have taken the first page into account. I support a bridge option for Queen Adelaide and moving from half barriers to full barriers for some of the AHB crossings on the Ely-Peterborough stretch because the road traffic levels and likely downtimes would demand it but I would be looking very carefully if someone tries to gold plate any UWC or minor crossing.

I think, from memory, the Ely scheme has to take into account over 100 level crossings, quite apart from Queen Adelaide, so it isn’t a trivial matter in the scheme of things to do.

The real question for me is if the Government is really going to fund this, rather than just saying it will. In which financial years will the funding be budgeted into, by how much in each year and when is the target completion date? Or are we in for more “discussion delay” by the Treasury?

Fair enough. Judging by how long and how many times this "essential" upgrade has been put off, I predict it won't get funded at all.

 

[higthomas]

Cambridge to anywhere in the Northeast is usually cheaper and faster via Peterborough:

Cambridge to Edinburgh via Peterborough, 4h 49 + 30min wait, around £80
Cambridge to Edinburgh via London Kings Cross, 5h 15 + 45 minutes wait, around £110

Train was packed towards Peterborough just from Stansted morning traffic

Hence why I said "unless your destination is near the ECML"...

 

[Farigiraf]

Hence why I said "unless your destination is near the ECML"...

Sorry, misread Unless as If

 

[cle]

Does a Norwich-Nottingham service avoiding Ely help at all?

And could that enable something else to slot in as well / accordingly, like another Norwich-Cambridge?

 

[TheBigD]

Does a Norwich-Nottingham service avoiding Ely help at all?

And could that enable something else to slot in as well / accordingly, like another Norwich-Cambridge?

Ely West curve is used to recess a number of freight trains during the day. For example, 6M84 sits on the curve 1553-1627. There's about half a dozen freights that you'd have to retime/accommodation elsewhere if you were to send the Norwich-Liverpool round the west curve, as well as the service losing it's connections at Ely.

 

[dk1]

Does a Norwich-Nottingham service avoiding Ely help at all?

And could that enable something else to slot in as well / accordingly, like another Norwich-Cambridge?

It does slightly but was always a revenue stream for EMR & others calling at Ely. How that transpires in this new TOC age is still being learned.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Probably not a good idea because of the number of punters who get on and off at Ely. There is quite a demand to go to/from north west of Grantham from/to various parts of East Anglia and Ely is where they connect into and out of that service.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Harper made a statement to the HoC earlier to formally announce what he said at Tory conference and specifically referred to Ely Junction project as being one of the schemes to be funded from HS2 savings.

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/improving-the-journeys-that-matter-most-to-the-british-public

Edit the debate in the commons on the statement reinforced this project

Mark Harper: She should also know that HS2 spending was crowding out other important investments. One of the things we are now able to fund is the £600 million project at Ely junction that will increase capacity for both passengers and freight to the important port of Felixstowe.

https://hansard.parliament.uk/search/MemberContributions?house=Commons&memberId=4066
Priti Patel: My right hon. Friend has just mentioned Ely junction, and he will know that the great eastern main line taskforce has assiduously campaigned for that investment for over a decade. I am grateful for this announcement, and we look forward to seeing the proposal go forward. Alongside rail, which is huge in the east of England, can my right hon. Friend bring his long-term plan for motorists to Essex by bringing forward the dualling of the A120? That scheme has been delayed for another two years because of construction inflation, which I completely understand. I implore him to look at the business case and see what the scheme would mean for the economic wellbeing of mid-Essex.
https://hansard.parliament.uk/search/MemberContributions?house=Commons&memberId=1520
Mark Harper: The Ely junction scheme, which I know my right hon. Friend and others welcome, is a well worked through scheme that was on Network Rail’s list of important priorities, but we simply did not have the money to fund it. We now do, as a result of this project. People cannot want to continue building the second phase of HS2 and simultaneously want to do all these other things. A choice had to be made, and we made that choice, and I think it is the right choice for the country.

Lets see how long this takes to formally instruct NR to get on with it