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Ely North Junction upgrade proposals

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edwin_m

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Will be interesting to know what the linespeeds will be over the redoubled Ely North Junction. Currently 50 mph for Lynn/Norwich and 50mph (up) and 60mph* (down) for Peterborough, along with 25 mph on to/off the west curve. The old layout speeds were low (30mph?) for most routes with the main line being towards Norwich as opposed to Peterborough currently. Unless there's land take I would be very surprised if they mange to maintain or increase those speeds, though I'm happy to be wrong!.
If they need to build a road bypass, land take will be needed. Not sure if this would be via a TWA if the road is needed for railway purposes, or just general highway powers. But particularly if it's a TWA, taking a bit more land to speed the junction up might not be too much extra complication.
 
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Bald Rick

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If they need to build a road bypass, land take will be needed. Not sure if this would be via a TWA if the road is needed for railway purposes, or just general highway powers. But particularly if it's a TWA, taking a bit more land to speed the junction up might not be too much extra complication.

it would be TWA.
 

RSimons

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How does this differ from the previous layout? My understanding is that the problem with being double track throughout is that the constrained space reduces the speed through the junction, resulting in no net change in the number of paths.
 

Bald Rick

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How does this differ from the previous layout? My understanding is that the problem with being double track throughout is that the constrained space reduces the speed through the junction, resulting in no net change in the number of paths.

It’s quicker, because the space is less constrained through these proposals.
 
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The link is live! https://phase2b.elyareacapacity.com/

The following LCs are due to be upgraded to full barrier with CCTV:
  • Badgeney Road (Badgeney Road, March)
  • Black Bank (Black Bank Road, Little Downham)
  • Bottisham Road (Bannolds Road, Waterbeach)
  • Burnt House (Burnt House Road, Turves)
  • Downham Market Bypass (A1122, Downham Market)
  • Eastrea (Wype Road, Eastrea)
  • Horsemoor (Upwell Road, March)
  • Littleport Bypass (A10, Littleport)
  • Norwood Road (Norwood Road, March)
  • Ramsey Road (Ramsey Road, Whittlesey)
  • Sandhills Littleport (Victoria Street, Littleport)
  • Three Horseshoes No.1, No.2 and No.3 (Whittlesey Road / March Road, Turves)
  • Welney Road (Wisbech Road, Manea)
Details on Burgess Drove, Stonea, Wells Engine & Queen Adelaide are explained in the documents.

I'm guessing many of these AHB crossings could become MCB Obstacle Detection crossings, as the consultation documentation only appears to specify consideration of Full Barriers.
 

dk1

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I'm guessing many of these AHB crossings could become MCB Obstacle Detection crossings, as the consultation documentation only appears to specify consideration of Full Barriers.
Waterbeach, Milton Fen & Dimmocks Cote along with Croxton & some crossings over the Newmarket branch are shortly to be converted to MCBOD too so sounds about right.
 

yorkie

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Just a gentle reminder this is an infrastructure discussion regarding the Ely North Junction upgrade.

To discuss anything else please create a new thread (if there isn't one already) or use an existing one (if there is); feel free to link to any such thread from here, as appropriate.

To discuss possible service changes, please use: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-the-ely-north-junction-upgrade-works.223849/

To discuss the possibility of grade separation or other alternatives to the proposals, please use: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/could-ely-north-junction-be-grade-separated.223852/

Thanks
 
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chiltern trev

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I have been looking at the "Upgraded track layout".

As there are facing crossovers, both southbound and northbound, on each of the Peterborough, Kings Lynn and Norwich lines, does this mean, or imply, each of the lines down to Ely station will be reversible?

Thus you can have two passenger trains arrive from the northern directions at the same time. And also have two passenger trains depart to the northern directions at the same time?

The layout does not have a third line (reversible) to/from Ely station? Any guesses as to what is the likely limit of number of trains/paths in each direction, can the 2 track layout suffice? The document does state the "Potential for uplifty in service capacity", but I am wondering how much more you can increase the service uplift until it becomes a bottleneck again and would a third track then be a help?
 

a good off

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The general opinion amongst local rail staff at the time of the resignalling was that in years to come, the railway would regret the severe nature of the rationalisation. And they did!
 

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TheBigD

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The general opinion amongst local rail staff at the time of the resignalling was that in years to come, the railway would regret the severe nature of the rationalisation. And they did!
You wouldn't fit today's service across Ely North Junction with the old layout. A Felixstowe bound liner crawling across Ely North Junction at 20mph would knock the service for 6!
The current 50mph Junction allows more traffic to run than the old 20/30 mph junctions.
 

Bald Rick

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The general opinion amongst local rail staff at the time of the resignalling was that in years to come, the railway would regret the severe nature of the rationalisation. And they did!

Amongst some local rail staff. Not others. I suggest that those who didn’t regret it were right.
 

Mollman

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I have been looking at the "Upgraded track layout".

As there are facing crossovers, both southbound and northbound, on each of the Peterborough, Kings Lynn and Norwich lines, does this mean, or imply, each of the lines down to Ely station will be reversible?

Thus you can have two passenger trains arrive from the northern directions at the same time. And also have two passenger trains depart to the northern directions at the same time?

The layout does not have a third line (reversible) to/from Ely station? Any guesses as to what is the likely limit of number of trains/paths in each direction, can the 2 track layout suffice? The document does state the "Potential for uplifty in service capacity", but I am wondering how much more you can increase the service uplift until it becomes a bottleneck again and would a third track then be a help?
That's an interesting one, in some respects that would make sense if Liverpool / Nottingham - Norwich could run wrong line from Ely to Ely North Junction parallel to a Peterborough or Kings Lynn bound train. It is hard to tell if that is the purpose or if just up to down cross over is for freight using the South Loop, and down to up is for trains accessing Potters Group sidings.
 

Maltazer

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That's an interesting one, in some respects that would make sense if Liverpool / Nottingham - Norwich could run wrong line from Ely to Ely North Junction parallel to a Peterborough or Kings Lynn bound train. It is hard to tell if that is the purpose or if just up to down cross over is for freight using the South Loop, and down to up is for trains accessing Potters Group sidings.
The lines north of Ely are already reversible. I've seen EMR trains depart north at the same time - one to Norwich and one for Liverpool.
 

dk1

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The lines north of Ely are already reversible. I've seen EMR trains depart north at the same time - one to Norwich and one for Liverpool.
They certainly are. We go up, down & all over the place all day long.
 

Ianno87

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The lines north of Ely are already reversible. I've seen EMR trains depart north at the same time - one to Norwich and one for Liverpool.

Not fully reversible. Down trains towards Peterborough must use the Down Line only from Ely station as there is no crossover to get back to "right line" at North Jn.

Down trains towards Lynn and Norwich can depart via the Up Line - essentially a side quirk of the single lead junction.
 

trebor79

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The lines north of Ely are already reversible. I've seen EMR trains depart north at the same time - one to Norwich and one for Liverpool.

They certainly are. We go up, down & all over the place all day long.
Yes I've seen delayed EMR to Norwich and GA to Norwich both depart at the same time. The GA was then overtaken by the EMR before the junction.
 

dk1

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Yes I've seen delayed EMR to Norwich and GA to Norwich both depart at the same time. The GA was then overtaken by the EMR before the junction.
I get it if leaving together but I’ve many times sat at the double blocked signal before Lime Kiln & the EMs is only arriving & had to wait for it to change ends & take priority. That makes me fume & puts a good 10-15 minutes into us by Thetford. Thankfully now the timetable is more spread out it’s a rarity these days,
 

trebor79

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I get it if leaving together but I’ve many times sat at the double blocked signal before Lime Kiln & the EMs is only arriving & had to wait for it to change ends & take priority. That makes me fume & puts a good 10-15 minutes into us by Thetford. Thankfully now the timetable is more spread out it’s a rarity these days,
It was a bit silly, as it delayed us by about 15 minutes as you say, and it also meant anyone for Brandon on the EMR had a very long wait. Might as well have held the GA service in the platform for a few minutes to let people get through the subway.
 

dk1

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It was a bit silly, as it delayed us by about 15 minutes as you say, and it also meant anyone for Brandon on the EMR had a very long wait. Might as well have held the GA service in the platform for a few minutes to let people get through the subway.
Yes never understood it. Wasn’t as if anything was behind us waiting to get into platform 1 most of the time. Just seemed to worry too much about right time departure for delay attribution.
 

DynamicSpirit

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Yes never understood it. Wasn’t as if anything was behind us waiting to get into platform 1 most of the time. Just seemed to worry too much about right time departure for delay attribution.

Does delay attribution really work in that way, by measuring departures? Intuitively, as a passenger, I'd have thought that, if a train arrives at a station on time, then it's not inconveniencing anyone if it departs a few minutes late - so there ought therefore to be no delay attribution penalty (provided of course, it can make up the time so it reaches the following station on time).
 

dk1

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Does delay attribution really work in that way, by measuring departures? Intuitively, as a passenger, I'd have thought that, if a train arrives at a station on time, then it's not inconveniencing anyone if it departs a few minutes late - so there ought therefore to be no delay attribution penalty (provided of course, it can make up the time so it reaches the following station on time).
Must be some reason behind it as we very rarely waited to provide a connection.
 

trebor79

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Does delay attribution really work in that way, by measuring departures? Intuitively, as a passenger, I'd have thought that, if a train arrives at a station on time, then it's not inconveniencing anyone if it departs a few minutes late - so there ought therefore to be no delay attribution penalty (provided of course, it can make up the time so it reaches the following station on time).
If the EMR is late and the the GA ends up behind it's late into Norwich (and all other stations on the branch) anyway.
I guess as you say it's delay attribution, but seems to be one of those cases where common sense has to play second fiddle to beauracracy.
 

Class 170101

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Ely Dock Jn to Ely West Jn is bi-Directional as follows

Up Line between Ely North Jn and Ely Dock Jn for Kings Lynn and Norwich bound services
Down Line between Ely West Jn and Ely Dock Jn
 

Bald Rick

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Does delay attribution really work in that way, by measuring departures?

yes

a previously on time service that leaves a station late has been delayed for some reason, and that needs identifying and apportioning.
 
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edwin_m

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Arrival time may be the only relevant measure for passengers, but delays on departure cause conflicts with other trains and therefore worsen the performance of the railway as a whole.
 

bspahh

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Good news that Kings Dyke is happening. £32m - that’s about right, and worth remembering when people say railways cost a lot - so do roads!
This is an aerial photograph of the bypass for Kings Dyke level crossing, from November 3rd
Aerial photograph of the road bypass and bridge across the railway, for the Kings Dyke level crossing, November 3rd 2021
Its from an interesting article of photographs from Terry Harris:
 

bspahh

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There is a new Keeping Trade on Track report on the Ely North junction upgrade from www.englandseconomicheartland.com and www.transporteast.org.uk

It quotes a budget of £466m, 6 years to build and a benefit cost ratio of £4.89 return for each £1 spent.

Today saw the formal parliamentary launch of the Keeping Trade on Track report making the case for investment in improvements to Ely rail junction.

Cross-party parliamentarians came together with industry, growth sectors, private sector international freight operators and regional representatives to drive home the huge benefits the scheme would bring nationally, regionally and locally. Hearing the arguments for the scheme were Iain Stewart MP, Chair of the Transport Select Committee and Tan Dhesi MP, Shadow Rail Minister.

MPs and Peers heard from Naomi Green of England’s Economic Heartland co-authors of the report, highlighting how this project is truly multi-modal by taking 97,000 HGVs off the roads each year.

Steve Beel set out the net zero growth ambitions of Freeport East building on the Port of Felixstowe’s connections with 200 countries worldwide. On the scheme he said “Currently constraints at Ely add cost and carbon to every container moving in and out of the UK’s Eastern ports.”

James Tierney from Maritime Transport expanded on this, demonstrating the £100s of millions of private investment going into rail freight terminals to facilitate the shift to low-carbon goods movement. But the value of these investments will only be fully achieved if the bottlenecks on the Felixstowe to Midlands & North rail corridor are unblocked.

Finally, Maggie Simpson OBE from the Rail Freight Group stressed the importance of smooth end-to-end trade routes if we want to get back to an export driven economy and retain global investment.

Other attendees spoke of the benefits to passengers of increased capacity through Ely; highlighted the risks of inaction; emphasized the importance of also improving Haughley junction to fully release capacity; and the importance of this project to connections to London Stansted Airport.

We will continue to work with partners to make the case to government for this essential investment for the region.
 
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snowball

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There is a new Keeping Trade on Track report on the Ely North junction upgrade from www.englandseconomicheartland.com and www.transporteast.org.uk

It quotes a budget of £466m, 6 years to build and a benefit cost ratio of £4.89 return for each £1 spent.
There's an item about this report and campaign on page 15 of the August Modern Railways. Asked about the scheme in the Commons, the rail minister said on 21st June that if it were to go into the rail network enhancements pipeline, something else would have to come out. The magazine "understands" that Ministers had to choose between it and MML electrification, and chose the latter because of its interaction with HS2 and IRP.

(The enhancements pipeline was introduced at the start of CP6 and its contents were supposed to be published annually, but there has been no publication since the first one. Ther have been recent promises that it will be published soon.)
 

DynamicSpirit

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bspahh

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6 years to build?!?!? If I recall correctly, it's basically some track remodelling plus level crossing work.

That's the kind of thing that makes me think, what's wrong with this country? :rolleyes:
"level crossing work" might mean a number of bridges over railways and rivers, rather than replacing a few barriers
 
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