Emergency Hand Signals

[martin2345uk]

I thought the main selling point of the RSSB's own app was that it was always up to date? Seems it's not?

 

[Efini92]

I thought the main selling point of the RSSB's own app was that it was always up to date? Seems it's not?

Do you have to update it?
Personally I prefer the books, I find it quicker to get to the relevant section.

 

[martin2345uk]

Do you have to update it?
Personally I prefer the books, I find it quicker to get to the relevant section.

It has a special section called "Future amendments" which are meant to automatically show any upcoming changes... might contact them via support to check this.

 

[ComUtoR]

It has a special section called "Future amendments" which are meant to automatically show any upcoming changes... might contact them via support to check this.

I think your app is broken. Mine updates every time I open it.

Currently showing, as attached..

When you load yours does it show as being updated ?

 

[martin2345uk]

Thanks for this, I will delete the app and reinstall it!

 

[ComUtoR]

Happy to help.

 

[Tomnick]

Between December 2022 and June 2021 you couldn’t. I think the wording in the amendments was something along the lines of “with GSMR there should be no reason not to be able to contact the signaller”.
I actually preferred the old wording. What if you pass the signal box and it’s open then 40 miles later at an IB you can’t contact the signaller

I'm sure that the principle was always there, given that a controlled signal is defined, in the "signals handbook" as

"a signal operated by the signaller, some of which may be set by the signaller to work automatically"

which brings an intermediate block home signal within the definition of a controlled signal, thus permitting you to apply the provisions of Section 8 of S5:-

"you may only pass a controlled signal at danger on your own authority if you have confirmed that the controlling signal box is closed"

under the heading

"Passing a signal at danger controlled from a signal box that is closed"

(which doesn't specifically use the term "controlled signal" anyway)

The June amendments, curiously, didn't change that passage. The only specific reference to an intermediate block signal comes in 8.4:-

"You must repeat the requirements of sections 8.2 and 8.3 of this module at any other controlled signal at danger that is operated from the same signal box, including an intermediate block home signal"

...which seems to confirm that an IBH is reasonably, considered a "controlled signal", but only clarifies it in the context of having already passed a signal at danger on your own authority before encountering the IBH also at danger!

Anyway, the guidance for the June re-issue states that

"Section 8.4 has been revised to clarify that the authority to pass any other signals at danger controlled from the same closed signal box also applies to an intermediate block home signal controlled by that signal box."

which confirms that it was always the intention that you could pass an IBH at danger on your own authority, as long as you'd confirmed that the signal box was closed, but that the wording was ambiguous.

 

[Snow1964]

Happened to visit National Trust‘s Clevedon Court (between Bristol and Weston super Mare) yesterday, and the staircase has lots of old (or copies of old) railway items, one of which was a GWR Hand signals (probably from 1830s or 1840s), those hand drawn line images are so much more interesting than the modern wordy versions.

There are also lots of pictures of railway bridges (including some famous like Britannia at Menai, Hungerford in London) as they were about 150 years ago, well worth a look. Apparently even tried to get the Saint class loco named Clevedon Court (but couldn’t get it through the gate), kept a nameplate, so someone in past must have been a railway buff. House is open Wed, Thur, and Sunday 2-5pm. I am a National Trust member so not sure how much it is if you pay.

 

[Efini92]

I'm sure that the principle was always there, given that a controlled signal is defined, in the "signals handbook" as

"a signal operated by the signaller, some of which may be set by the signaller to work automatically"

which brings an intermediate block home signal within the definition of a controlled signal, thus permitting you to apply the provisions of Section 8 of S5:-

"you may only pass a controlled signal at danger on your own authority if you have confirmed that the controlling signal box is closed"

under the heading

"Passing a signal at danger controlled from a signal box that is closed"

(which doesn't specifically use the term "controlled signal" anyway)

The June amendments, curiously, didn't change that passage. The only specific reference to an intermediate block signal comes in 8.4:-

"You must repeat the requirements of sections 8.2 and 8.3 of this module at any other controlled signal at danger that is operated from the same signal box, including an intermediate block home signal"

...which seems to confirm that an IBH is reasonably, considered a "controlled signal", but only clarifies it in the context of having already passed a signal at danger on your own authority before encountering the IBH also at danger!

Anyway, the guidance for the June re-issue states that

"Section 8.4 has been revised to clarify that the authority to pass any other signals at danger controlled from the same closed signal box also applies to an intermediate block home signal controlled by that signal box."

which confirms that it was always the intention that you could pass an IBH at danger on your own authority, as long as you'd confirmed that the signal box was closed, but that the wording was ambiguous.

The problem lies in confirming the signal box is closed. The IB’s had their own separate rule because it’s not practical (or in some cases possible) to walk to the signal box to confirm it has closed.

 

[Neo9320]

Happened to visit National Trust‘s Clevedon Court (between Bristol and Weston super Mare) yesterday, and the staircase has lots of old (or copies of old) railway items, one of which was a GWR Hand signals (probably from 1830s or 1840s), those hand drawn line images are so much more interesting than the modern wordy versions.

There are also lots of pictures of railway bridges (including some famous like Britannia at Menai, Hungerford in London) as they were about 150 years ago, well worth a look. Apparently even tried to get the Saint class loco named Clevedon Court (but couldn’t get it through the gate), kept a nameplate, so someone in past must have been a railway buff. House is open Wed, Thur, and Sunday 2-5pm. I am a National Trust member so not sure how much it is if you pay.

That sounds interesting! Not too far from me so will have to check it out. Thanks for the tip!

 

[Tomnick]

The problem lies in confirming the signal box is closed. The IB’s had their own separate rule because it’s not practical (or in some cases possible) to walk to the signal box to confirm it has closed.

Indeed, and that requirement didn't change with the latest amendment, of course.

I would be satisfied with an assurance from the adjacent box that the controlling signal box is indeed closed.

 

[Efini92]

Indeed, and that requirement didn't change with the latest amendment, of course.

I would be satisfied with an assurance from the adjacent box that the controlling signal box is indeed closed.

I’d argue it has changed because now you’ve already confirmed the signal box is closed. Under the old rule as long as you’d tried to contact the box by whatever means available you could pass the IB on your own authority.

I wonder if anyone has had to carry out these rules in the last decade?

 

[Tomnick]

I’d argue it has changed because now you’ve already confirmed the signal box is closed. Under the old rule as long as you’d tried to contact the box by whatever means available you could pass the IB on your own authority.

I wonder if anyone has had to carry out these rules in the last decade?

Yes, it's definitely changed since you could do it on your own authority as long as you'd exhausted all means of contacting the signaller. I meant that the most recent "clarification" hasn't really changed anything.

I know of a few cases where someone's had to apply these rules, at a location that's normally switched out. The signaller next door confirmed that the box was indeed closed and simply advised the driver to "apply the appropriate rules". As good a clear understanding as you can get in the circumstances, I think.

I've also nearly had to set this situation up as a signalman, when I had to switch out a box on an unplanned basis because I'd done twelve hours and there was no relief for me. Almost immediately afterwards, the berth track circuit at the adjacent box failed, which prevented him giving a 'line clear' and in turn would've prevented me from clearing my IBH when switching out if I'd been a few minutes later doing so. The only thing that I could've done, short of staying on duty until the end of service (which would have made it about eighteen hours!), would have been to have switched out but left the IBH at danger.