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Employee rights to socialise while off work due to illness

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mmh

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I don't know the details of the case but it's more likely than not that the issue wasn't that he was dismissed but that the correct process wasn't followed. I've seen it happen before.

It was both, I believe. Being off sick doesn't necessarily mean you're bedridden.

Edit: A news report on the case: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-57411812
and a HR journal's take: https://www.thehrdirector.com/legal-updates/legal-updates-2021/going-pub-sick-not-sackable-offence/

Judge Andrea Pitt uphold Mr Kane’s claim of unfair dismissal, pointing out that the company’s rules do not prohibit employees from socialising whilst being off sick.

Kate Palmer is HR Advice and Consultancy Director for Peninsula UK. She says “This case highlights the need for employers to have robust disciplinary procedures; dismissing an employee for breaching a rule which they were not aware of is risky when it comes to establishing a fair dismissal. The dismissal in this case was unfair for a combination of reasons, including an inadequate investigation which is another essential part of fairness; decisions should not be based on assumptions.

“From a wider perspective, employers should not jump to a conclusion that an employee is ‘pulling a sickie’ because they are seen socialising when on sick leave. The specific reason for the absence must be considered because, in some cases, GPs may advise that the employee undertakes activities during sickness absence. It is clear from this ruling that being too sick to work does not mean the employee must necessarily be confined to their house.”
 
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najaB

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Thanks for finding and posting.
How ridiculous has the law become?
How much worse can it get?
What do you mean? From the second link it's pretty clear that their sickness policy didn't prohibit the employee going to the pub while off sick so, absent any other evidence, there wasn't grounds for dismissal. Unless you're suggesting that employers should be able to fire people for breaking rules that don't exist?
 

LCC106

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Happens all the time, and is pretty impossible to take forward as it’s generally impossible to prove. Especially with Covid knocking about.
Just as long as anyone off sick doesn’t post about the footie on social media :lol:
 

LCC106

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Yes indeed, brain block. I meant not to claim you have sickness and a stomach bug and then go to the pub to watch the footie as you risk being plastered on social media :lol: Believe it or not, there are some…!
 

Tazi Hupefi

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There's already LOTS of similar case law on this. A memorable one was McDonalds versus an employee who was of sick with stress / depression, but turned up to a party that colleagues were also at and promptly got drunk. McDonalds dismissed the employee, and the tribunal upheld the dismissal, but was overturned on appeal.

Another case involved an employee going abroad during sickness. Court found that it was lawful. You can be unfit for work, but fit to do other things! If your job cannot be made flexible enough to support your illness, the employee is not obliged to stay home in bed!

Some illnesses may actually get better with a bit of time away in the sun!
 

Gloster

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I think there was a case where a signalman rang in sick and the job had to be covered by a MOM. The MOM later saw the signalman in the crowd of a football match being shown on TV, the match having taken place when the signalman should have been at work.
 

Ianno87

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Not all sickness is physical either.

I'd have thought when being off work due to stress or mental health issues (for example) some occasional social interaction should actually be healthy and encouraged.
 

birchesgreen

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I'd have thought when being off work due to stress or mental health issues (for example) some occasional social interaction should actually be healthy and encouraged.
Ideal world yes but we don't live in such do we, we instead live in a world full of spite and bitterness.
 

83A

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Back in early 2017 I was signed off work for 3 weeks due to stress/exhaustion from too much business travel.

After sleeping for what seemed like a week I started walking, mountain biking and small trips on my motorcycle plus visiting friends. It was all part of the de stress/recovery process.

To be fair my employer knew they’d probably asked too much of me so would not have had a leg to stand on.
 

tiptoptaff

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It comes down to attitude. I was off sick for 8or so weeks at the start of last year due to a baby loss. I had a holiday to Lanzerote in the middle of that (prebooked) and the management told me to enjoy it as my wife and I needed it and deserved a break after the loss. Not once did they say "if you're fit to go away you're fit to come in"

Apart from the obvious last minute "I can't come in I've got a stomach bug, can't get out of bed, etc etx" and then being seen on the TV/down the pub/driving a coach then anyone who begrudges some form of normal life for someone who's off sick and/or recovering is just very bitter.
 

83A

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anyone who begrudges some form of normal life for someone who's off sick and/or recovering is just very bitter.
Quite right. Trouble is we seem to live in a society where people are quick to judge without considering what someone might be going though.
 

neilmc

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I was signed off sick with depression in my last year of work when I burst out crying at the doctor's surgery. As soon as I sent in that precious sick note I started to feel better already - plenty of sleep along with plenty of exercise plus a holiday to Florida (already booked!) did the trick. And when I was ready to come back to work I had weeks worth of holiday leave still to take so for the rest of the year I worked a three-day week to get it all in and they had to be nice to me. Of course, if that happens early in your career you can say goodbye to any promotion as you clearly can't hack the job any more, and they'll find some way to ease you out in a year or two but at that point in life it was great. I worked at a bank not a rail company so I don't expect nasty comments about scroungers letting the passengers down.
 

LCC106

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Yep. A holiday to recover from stress etc. should be fully acceptable, although one person I know was sacked for going abroad with a broken wrist and I still don’t know how management got away with it. That said I asked my employer if I was ok to go away when I was off sick once and they said to crack on.
 

C J Snarzell

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Work Place sickness is very much a minefield of policy & procedures and there isn't necessary a black/white rule to how employers should deal with sickness and the private lives of staff.

I believe each case should be judged and dealt with differently - just because two employees suffer from the same illness doesn't mean they should be dealt with the same. Everyone has different needs and circumstances.

The issue of having a social life outside of work whilst off sick is open for debate. Having a daytime coffee in a cafe with a friend or participating in gentle exercise (like a walk) surely can't be frowned upon, unless the patient is supposed to bedridden or cannot leave the house. However, if the patient is say recovering from hospital surgery and is just venturing out here & there to have that coffee or a walk then that should be totally acceptable if it is part of the recuperation process.

Its been commented on about staff going on holiday when sick. I suffered from severe depression during the latter years of my policing service and my Inspector was more than happy for me to go away as she felt it would help with my recuperation.

I always maintained regular contact with my supervisors when I was off work and one thing I never did was post anything on social media which colleagues could react to and lead to criticism or potential misconduct.

Sickness involving mental health (such as depression or stress) is much more harder for employers to deal with if employees are potentially suffering long term problems.

I do vaguely remember the McDonald's party goer case in the media that was referred to earlier in this thread. I actually went to a retirement party for a former colleague several years ago (when I wasn't sick!) and a female staff member who was off herself due to stress was there and got very drunk in front of several bosses. She wasn't challenged, because the attitude was she was sick and was still entitled to socialise and interact with her colleagues. It did however, get several people's backs up and caused a lot of resentment in the workplace.

My own attitude is - if you are off work sick (whether a physical or mental illness) you should not be out partying or doing a night on the town, getting blitzed on endless pints and shots. That's just my opinion anyway for what it's worth.

If people are off sick with alleged bad backs are broken arms and are caught participating in extreme sports, that is another matter altogether and I would think a P45 may be in the post at some point.

From my own experience - sickness & socialising is a very grey area to deal with but I suppose a common sense attitude is needed to ensure both sides (the employer & the sick employee) knows their boundaries.

CJ
 

ComUtoR

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Work Place sickness is very much a minefield of policy & procedures and there isn't necessary a black/white rule to how employers should deal with sickness and the private lives of staff.

But there can be more black and white rules. Employee terms and conditions should set out the details for sickness of any kind. There should be a difference between a single days sick and long term sickness. Having clear terms and conditions help ameliorate any sickness issues.

I believe each case should be judged and dealt with differently - just because two employees suffer from the same illness doesn't mean they should be dealt with the same. Everyone has different needs and circumstances.

Employees should be dealt with fairly and evenly. Following on from the point above; clear policies are there to give all employees an equality or at least some semblence of. I would agree that each case needs to be based on that individuals needs.

The issue of having a social life outside of work whilst off sick is open for debate.

This, in some way, has actually been dealt with in the law. 'Fit notes' are issued rather than the generic 'Sick note' Your GP should be able to issue a note stating that you are unfit for work. I doubt I could drive a train with a broken leg but that in no way stops me from going down to the pub or even going on holiday. I certainly believe that some people still cannot differentiate between being 'sick' and 'unfit' for work.

'Off sick' has been a generic umbrella term for many many years and has evolved to become something negative. Modern employment cannot keep this outdated attitude towards any form of sickenss. One of the reasons why 'fit notes' were introduced was to keep employees at work and earning and the employeer still having a productive employee. Quite often an employee doesn't need to go 'off sick' but can be given alternative duties instead. However, employeers are reluctant to offer alternative duties for numerous reasons. This would certainly require a culture change.

If you have been signed off work, then you are entitled to do whatever you wish; your employeer has *no say in that.

Having a daytime coffee in a cafe with a friend or participating in gentle exercise (like a walk) surely can't be frowned upon, unless the patient is supposed to bedridden or cannot leave the house. However, if the patient is say recovering from hospital surgery and is just venturing out here & there to have that coffee or a walk then that should be totally acceptable if it is part of the recuperation process.

There is a difference here between someone saying they are 'bedridden' and then going out for a coffee. *Clearly if the employee is lying of simply 'pulling a sickie' then there should be some punitive action taken (subject to employment laws and employee terms etc) but that clear difference is important to highlight.

My own attitude is - if you are off work sick (whether a physical or mental illness) you should not be out partying or doing a night on the town, getting blitzed on endless pints and shots. That's just my opinion anyway for what it's worth.

My attitude is more non judgemental. If someone is 'off sick' then I am most likeluy not aware of all the facts of the reasons why they are off. If you are off sick then there is zero reason to be locked up at home. People are off sick for so many reasons and its not my place to judge or decide what they should or shouldn't be doing. One of our Drivers was 'off sick' and regularly turned up to our work drinks. He has Cancer. Should he be banned from leaving the house ?

From my own experience - sickness & socialising is a very grey area to deal with but I suppose a common sense attitude is needed to ensure both sides (the employer & the sick employee) knows their boundaries.

My personal experience comes from both sides of the table. The world has moved on and we all need to be more understanding and a lot more educated when dealing with 'sickness'

Not specifically picking on you but you raise some interesting points.
 

riceuten

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I think people's attitude towards staff off sick and their "permitted" activities broadly tends to reflect their politics and to an extent, their age. The stereotyping of certain groups of workers as "shirkers" if they are off sick, and/or them manufacturing a reason to be sick when there is a sporting event has become an almost annual event. My Facebook timeline was full of this recently, and certain sections of the press really have it in for either public sector, or transport workers.
 
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