Empty Stock Moves That Could Be Useful To Passengers.

[Envoy]

I note that a number of empty stock moves take place that could be of use to passengers. Being as they are running in anycase, why not also take passengers?

Here is one on Saturdays from Carmarthen to Swansea (non stop). It is clearly to get an IET back to Swansea depot but it first goes into Swansea station.

Realtime Trains | 5E03 1047 Carmarthen to Swansea Maliphant Iep Dpt | 08/07/2023

Real-time train running information for 5E03 1047 departure from Carmarthen to Swansea Maliphant Iep Dpt on 08/07/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Here is another GWR IET running early morning empty from Swansea to Llanelli non stop.

Realtime Trains | 3L12 0545 Swansea Maliphant Iep Dpt to Carmarthen | 08/06/2023

Real-time train running information for 3L12 0545 departure from Swansea Maliphant Iep Dpt to Carmarthen on 08/06/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[1Q18]

This may or may not be applicable to your two examples, but one major factor in many cases is that a passenger service would require a guard but an ECS service would not.

 

[JonathanH]

Being as they are running in anycase, why not also take passengers?

It provides more flexibility to do something different if there is an engineering block or a need to change the timetable for the empty stock movements.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

I note that a number of empty stock moves take place that could be of use to passengers. Being as they are running in anycase, why not also take passengers?

Here is one on Saturdays from Carmarthen to Swansea (non stop). It is clearly to get an IET back to Swansea depot but it first goes into Swansea station.

Realtime Trains | 5E03 1047 Carmarthen to Swansea Maliphant Iep Dpt | 08/07/2023

Real-time train running information for 5E03 1047 departure from Carmarthen to Swansea Maliphant Iep Dpt on 08/07/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Here is another GWR IET running early morning empty from Swansea to Llanelli non stop.

Realtime Trains | 3L12 0545 Swansea Maliphant Iep Dpt to Carmarthen | 08/06/2023

Real-time train running information for 3L12 0545 departure from Swansea Maliphant Iep Dpt to Carmarthen on 08/06/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

The timetable planning rules in this particular case dictate that it cannot be a passenger train. At Carmarthen, a passenger arrival from Paddington requires a minimum of 25 mins of platform time (‘turnaround allowance’) before departing as another passenger service, which allows recovery time if the inbound service is delayed, protecting passengers journey times. As ECS moves are less time-sensitive the minimum requirement if the unit arrives Passenger but departs ECS is only 10 mins. In this case the path cannot run later due to other services on the graph.

The balancing working from Swansea back to Carmarthen is, however, a passenger train, because the Carmarthen turnaround requirement for a passenger train from Swansea (relatively short distance) is also only 10 mins, on the basis that far less can go wrong compared to a 4hr journey from Padd.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The ECS move from Holbeck to Huddersfield (via Normanton and Wakefield) each evening peak to form the Sheffield extra would be quite useful if it was able to run in service from Woodlesford onwards, but alas it doesn't have a guard with it so can't.

 

[Taunton]

The DLR has various empty train movements as the service increases or decreases, including some oddball combinations of routes (such as Lewisham line to the Beckton line). They used to be in the (unpublished) timetable, but people got to know them, especially the ones after the pm peak which could be useful for going home; the trip above requires two changes and can require more time waiting than travelling.

Apparently they were given up for passengers, and made into unavailable ECS, because at times of disruption they were most commonly delayed for the mainstream services, and thus impacted on the punctuality figures reported to TfL. Nobody could come up with a means to report them as just extras, or not report them, so they were removed from public service entirely to make the reported figures look better. Passenger convenience be blowed. They now run, same cost, same staffing, same times, out of service.

 

[Class15]

There’s a fast Tring to Euston empty stock move, 3B53 i think is the headcode, in the peak hour around 6pm. I think this could be made a passenger working.

 

[Lewlew]

There’s a fast Tring to Euston empty stock move, 3B53 i think is the headcode, in the peak hour around 6pm. I think this could be made a passenger working.

Is there demand for it? Tring already gets 4 tph.

There’s also Euston - Watford Junction empties to form a morning peak service back into town which could run in service but only to save having to detrain the previous service at Euston, there’s not enough passenger demand for it otherwise.

 

[SargeNpton]

There’s a fast Tring to Euston empty stock move, 3B53 i think is the headcode, in the peak hour around 6pm. I think this could be made a passenger working.

Runs non-stop in about 26 minutes so that it can form another northbound train towards the end of the evening-peak. Add in passenger stops and the journey would be too long for it to have time to turn round at Euston.

 

[moonarrow458]

Southern rail have a number of ECS moves in the late evening that in many cases are rather odd but could be converted into useful passenger services.

On Monday to Fridays:
5G70 2312 Caterham to Selhurst Depot
Has sufficient pathing time that it could be run in service to Purley or East Croydon
5P71 2339 Caterham to Selhurst Depot
This one even waits at Purley for a similar ECS move to join it and attach from Tattenham Corner (5P68 at 2339) before running together to Selhurst

These ECS moves mean that the Caterham branch has the odd quirk of having later last trains towards Croydon on Saturdays (2330) and Sundays (2304) than weekdays (2255). It should be noted the far quieter Epsom Downs branch has later last trains on all nights of the week towards Croydon

Meanwhile on Saturdays the following odd things happen:

2S92 2307 Dorking to West Croydon becomes 5K94 West Croydon to London Bridge ECS

2B57 2338 Epsom Downs to West Croydon becomes 5B59 West Croydon to Stewarts Lane via London Victoria ECS

2S94 2337 Dorking to West Croydon becomes 5B94 West Croydon to Stewarts Lane via London Victoria ECS

Why these don't continue in passenger service from West Croydon to the respective London termini is baffling? They'd be far more useful to passengers if they did continue in service to London rather then dumping people in West Croydon at midnight leaving them to get the nightbus in towards London.

 

[Class15]

Runs non-stop in about 26 minutes so that it can form another northbound train towards the end of the evening-peak. Add in passenger stops and the journey would be too long for it to have time to turn round at Euston.

You could run it as a non-stop Tring to Euston train maybe?

 

[30907]

It's complicated:
If a train is going to leave as ECS, it may need extra time for the crew to ensure it is cleared of passengers.
With DOO this needs to happen at a staffed station (hence the 2343/45 Hayes to Lewisham as Hayes is unstaffed) so a 2nd person is available.
The Blackfriars-Beckenham Jn contra-flow "fasts" run as passenger (despite the evening returns not showing in the NRT PDF), because of the time factor.

Late evening empties are another matter - in the case of the West Croydon trains mentioned, the station is staffed, whereas VIC and LBG may no longer be at 0030 Sunday - and there are late night engineering works enough to require plenty of flexibility.

Hope the TLCs make sense

 

[moonarrow458]

There are also some bizzare ECS moves in the Epsom area on weekday mornings during the start up of service that could run in service as useful passenger services. For example:

5B02 runs from Streatham Hill to Sutton to form 2B03 0551 Sutton to Victoria via Selhurst. However 5B02 runs up to Epsom reversing there at 0541 before running down to Sutton to form 2B03, which seems to be unnecessary extra mileage, but if it runs anyway 2B03 might as well start in service from Epsom

Likewise 5K03 Selhurst Depot to Epsom runs all the way down to Dorking to reverse at 0552 before running up to Epsom to form 1K04 0615 Epsom to London Bridge. Again seemingly unnecessary extra mileage, which if run anyway might as well provide a useful passenger service by running 1K04 in service from Dorking to London Bridge, particularly given cuts in the area that have seen the few Peak time Dorking to London Bridge services cut.

Likewise 5Y06 Streatham Hill Sidings to West Croydon runs all the way down to Epsom to reverse before forming 2S07 0652 West Croydon to Victoria via Crystal Palace. Again the extra mileage is bizzare, given alternative reversing points at West Croydon and Sutton but if its going to run down to Epsom anyway surely it makes sense to start back 2S07 from Epsom to Victoria via West Croydon and Crystal Palace to give Epsom and Sutton direct services to Crystal Palace line stations, which otherwise would require a change

In these examples earlier first services run from Dorking and Epsom so station staffing wouldn't be an issue, although again why these ECS moves even run down to Epsom and Dorking in the first place is bizzare

 

[75A]

In the early 80's we used to have a great Sunday evening ECS turn.
Pass from Brighton to Fratton, pick up a 33, go 'light' to Portsmouth Harbour.
Wait for a Bristol or might have been a Cardiff to come in, and then go non stop to Barnham to change Guards then non stop to New Cross Gate via Hove and the Quarry. Then pass home. A really enjoyable turn.
I'm sure some enthusiasts would have enjoyed it.

 

[L401CJF]

A few on Merseyrail would be very useful as passenger services. Last service from Chester to Liverpool is 2300, the 2330 works to Hooton only. However the arrivals at around 2355 and 0035 both then run ECS back towards Birkenhead. Would be handy to run them in service. 2300 is very early for 2 cities especially on event days!

I understand the reasons why it doesn't work in service however.

 

[gc4946]

In the early 80's we used to have a great Sunday evening ECS turn.
Pass from Brighton to Fratton, pick up a 33, go 'light' to Portsmouth Harbour.
Wait for a Bristol or might have been a Cardiff to come in, and then go non stop to Barnham to change Guards then non stop to New Cross Gate via Hove and the Quarry. Then pass home. A really enjoyable turn.
I'm sure some enthusiasts would have enjoyed it.

Could it have been those trains which had 8-coach Southern Region Mk1/Mk2 sets diagrammed on Sundays between Portsmouth Harbour-Bristol TM? During the week they were stabled at New Cross Gate and used on peak London Bridge-East Grinstead/Uckfield services

 

[75A]

Could it have been those trains which had 8-coach Southern Region Mk1/Mk2 sets diagrammed on Sundays between Portsmouth Harbour-Bristol TM? During the week they were stabled at New Cross Gate and used on peak London Bridge-East Grinstead/Uckfield services

Yes, that makes sense.
Brighton's Top Link used to take the 3 car DEMU's on the Uckfield runs but I don.t think they had any Crompton turns on that route, but it was a long time ago.
Another interesting ECS turn @ Brighton at that time were the 6 car DEMU's, which ran from St Leonards to Eastleigh via Brighton, Preston Park & Hove.

 

[BJames]

We were heading back to Plymouth from Falmouth and the train that we boarded was the only one that day that goes through to Par, but then runs ECS to Plymouth (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:P77658/2023-06-09/detailed#allox_id=0). I assume this is because the guard leaves at Par, but it was a shame as it is a 45 minute wait on the platform at Truro (or St Austell, or Par if you prefer), while the train we'd just got off continues ECS to Plymouth anyway.

 

[william.martin]

Avanti on there Barton Under Needwood RSMD to Shrewsbury ECS runs.

 

[dk1]

Avanti on there Barton Under Needwood RSMD to Shrewsbury ECS runs.

With a 20:40 & 21:30 departure either side of the 21:15 ECS there’s probably no point. Add to that the fact this train can be easily cancelled on the down at Wolverhampton in times of disruption, there would be no enthusiasm to bother with a lightly loaded evening return working.

 

[mangyiscute]

For me the frustration is when there's early morning ECS movements that could allow a journey that currently isn't possible because there's no early enough trains. Something like gwr's 05:10 Oxford to Worcester is sort of the counterexample - a train that I highly doubt gets many passengers but may as well run in service for the few who it does benefit. However, I imagine with most the issue would be having guards or turnarounds etc. I'd love some of the HeX trains from Reading to Paddington in the early morning to be passenger so that I don't have to sit on a stopper at 4am, but that's never gonna happen.

 

[Ianigsy]

The ECS move from Holbeck to Huddersfield (via Normanton and Wakefield) each evening peak to form the Sheffield extra would be quite useful if it was able to run in service from Woodlesford onwards, but alas it doesn't have a guard with it so can't.

Surely not a massive issue to taxi one from Leeds station if the will was there.

On the other hand, presumably it’s considered worthwhile for the return working of the Oban- Dalmally school train to run in service.

Merseyrail are particularly crafty like this, especially in the hour or two after the end of the peak where you have empty stock workings from the branch termini to Kirkdale and Birkenhead North which have to run through Liverpool city centre.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As a slight aside workings whose purpose is ECS do operate in service to/from Bletchley (though not quite all of them). The morning additionals from Bletchley are Tring workings that come off Bletchley CS and have a guard (as they are Bletchley guards) so may as well, and so mostly do, run in service. They'd not be justified otherwise, much as I like them for their quietness!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Surely not a massive issue to taxi one from Leeds station if the will was there.

I'm not certain, but I think it's a Huddersfield guard that joins for the trip to Sheffield. A Leeds guard would have to travel pass back on TPE which is a bit of a gamble at the moment!

 

[Peter0124]

Should these first/last services start/terminate at Motherwell?

Realtime Trains | 5M71 0525 Motherwell Weighs C.H.S. to Newton | 14/06/2023

Real-time train running information for 5M71 0525 departure from Motherwell Weighs C.H.S. to Newton on 14/06/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 5P22 2348 Newton to Motherwell Weighs C.H.S. | 14/06/2023

Real-time train running information for 5P22 2348 departure from Newton to Motherwell Weighs C.H.S. on 14/06/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Some guy]

Realtime Trains | 2C00 0559 Lancaster to Windermere | 12/06/2023

Real-time train running information for 2C00 0559 departure from Lancaster to Windermere on 12/06/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

This service should start from Preston

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Yes, that makes sense

Diagrammed an 8 Set H. 12+51 Fratton to Ports Hbr, 1315 to Cardiff, 1755 back to Ports Hbr then 21+42 to 'The Gate'.

 

[mangyiscute]

Realtime Trains | 2C00 0559 Lancaster to Windermere | 12/06/2023

Real-time train running information for 2C00 0559 departure from Lancaster to Windermere on 12/06/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

This service should start from Preston

At least with this one, there is a service 5 mins beforehand that can do the Preston to Lancaster section (assuming its running, which considering its TPE is nowhere near a certainty)

 

[CHESHIRECAT]

5V33.. Crewe/Piccadilly. Forms first southbound from Piccadilly to Cardiff..
Be a useful earlier service from Crewe and Wilmslow

 

[mangyiscute]

5V33.. Crewe/Piccadilly. Forms first southbound from Piccadilly to Cardiff..
Be a useful earlier service from Crewe and Wilmslow

This service runs via Warrington and Eccles, and then starts on platform 13 with just 4 minutes of time there, so I'm sure there's some reason why it couldn't be a passenger service.