EMR “ITSO” smart cards - Accepted on other operators?

[Quincy]

I have recently got a week ticket on my EMR itso smart card and have been using it perfectly fine. Except for one train where I got kicked off because “they done accept smartvards” which in fact they do. Because I’ve used that ticket 10+ times on the journey on that operator. I was wondering if I could actually use it on other tocs with a valid ticket. Or just the toc that issued it?

 

[Scott1]

As long as the ticket type is valid then yes. For example, a 7 day season Nottingham to Derby would be valid on both EMR and Cross Country. The ticket medium, in this case a Smart card, has no bearing on its validity. In fact you could use almost any TOCs smart card, as it is the stored ticket that matters, not the logo on the card.

 

[paul1609]

I've used my GTR key on Southeastern and Greater Anglia with no issues.

 

[STINT47]

As long as the smart card holds a valid ticket the medium used to store/show that ticket is irrelevant to you as a passenger.

If a TOC has not equipped their staff to read an EMR smart card or any other form of ticket then to put it bluntly that's there problem.

If you were removed from a train with a valid ticket then a complaint should be made.

 

[miklcct]

A Southern smartcard which holds PAYG credit and doesn't hold a ticket isn't accepted on other operators:

KeyGo is only valid for travel on Gatwick Express, Great Northern, Thameslink and Southern services in the keyGo area. You are also allowed to use Great Western services between Redhill - Dorking Deepdene and Warblington - Brighton.

If you travel on another train service, Transport for London services (eg. tube), or beyond the keyGo area, and do not have hold a valid Smart ticket (ie. Season Ticket) on your Key Smartcard, you may incur an Incomplete Journey Charge or a Penalty Fare.

South Western Railway also has similar terms:

Your Tap2Go Touch Smartcard can only be used on South Western Railway (“SWR”) operated services within the Tap2Go network area. This includes Island Line services. If a journey begins or ends outside of the Tap2Go network, the journey will be considered invalid and incomplete.

while CrossCountry's smartcards can only be used for loading season tickets:

What tickets are available for CrossCountry Smartcards?​

Many Season ticket journeys are now available on your Smartcard, as more of the network becomes ready for Smartcards, we will make more journeys available.

How do I buy a ticket for my Smartcard?​

Simply order your Smartcard whist buying your Season ticket. Or you can order your Smartcard and wait up to five working days for it to arrive in the post. Then visit our Seasons tickets page to purchase your Season ticket. Once you’ve purchased your ticket, you can load using the CrossCountry Train Tickets app, at a local PayPoint location or selected stations.

This is such a complete mess which prevents me to use any smart cards for regular travel. Unless a network-wide scheme rolls out, I'm still inconvenienced by having to buy tickets before boarding.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Think of the Smartcard as a carrier bag. You don't have to have a Tesco bag to shop in Tesco

 

[L401CJF]

As stated above, providing it is loaded with a valid product for that journey eg not limited to one TOC then it can be used.

 

[Watershed]

A Southern smartcard which holds PAYG credit and doesn't hold a ticket isn't accepted on other operators:

I think it's important to make the distinction between the use of Tap2Go as a PAYG travel authority, whose use is explicitly limited to the TOC in question, and the use of interavailable tickets which can be loaded onto smartcards.

 

[STINT47]

OP if you could come back to us with more details of the journeys origin, destination, date, time, TOC who they had a problem with and ticket used/payment method we can advise you further.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Do you not need to be able to prove what ticket is on said smart card? Are the train crew just to take a passengers word?

Thankfully our ticket machines can scan ITSO cards but if they didn't surely it would be no better than the old "it's on my phone but my phone died" argument.

If a TOC doesn't issue these cards why would they be expected to have the machines to read them?
I agree the whole network needs to have these cards available and therefore machines to read them, they used to be a bit of a faff.

 

[Haywain]

Do you not need to be able to prove what ticket is on said smart card? Are the train crew just to take a passengers word?

It’s up to the company to provide their staff with a means of reading smart cards.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Do you not need to be able to prove what ticket is on said smart card? Are the train crew just to take a passengers word?

I think the argument is that it's not for the passenger to demonstrate that they have a valid ticket, but it is for the train crew to find this out - and the law/byelaws/NRCoT say how the passenger must co-operate with the train crew to allow this discovery.

Historically, how this worked was that a passenger presented a small piece of cardboard which the guard examined using their eyes. Later, e-tickets came along which require the passenger to make sure their phone is working for the guard to examine by eye. Now we have ITSO tickets where the passenger can present their ticket - but the guard needs more than their eyes to examine it. I don't see how it's the passenger's fault (or why they should suffer) if the guard doesn't have the necessary equipment to examine the ticket.

 

[paul1609]

Realistically how many on board staff don't have a nfc smart phone? The Southern app will read any ITSO card, I'm sure others are the same.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

I think the argument is that it's not for the passenger to demonstrate that they have a valid ticket, but it is for the train crew to find this out - and the law/byelaws/NRCoT say how the passenger must co-operate with the train crew to allow this discovery.

Historically, how this worked was that a passenger presented a small piece of cardboard which the guard examined using their eyes. Later, e-tickets came along which require the passenger to make sure their phone is working for the guard to examine by eye. Now we have ITSO tickets where the passenger can present their ticket - but the guard needs more than their eyes to examine it. I don't see how it's the passenger's fault (or why they should suffer) if the guard doesn't have the necessary equipment to examine the ticket.

There's no need for the attitude, I'm simply asking a question. First paragraph sufficed.

I'm well aware of the transition from paper tickets, and ITSO cards have been around longer than smart tickets in my area. I'm simply asking where the responsibility lies.

 

[Hadders]

If a passenger presents a ticket in an acceptable format, be it on paper or e-ticket or smartcard the person checking it’s validity should have the appropriate equipment to do so.

If they don’t then it’s not the passengers fault, they must be taken at their word and the person checking must accept that.

 

[STINT47]

If a member of staff has not been given the equipment to read a smart card then in my view that's the TOCs problem not the passengers.

If I go to buy a ticket, get offered smart card as an option and pick it then I've done nothing wrong. As long as I then use my ticket on a valid train then I cannot see how it's correct to penalise the passenger.

It's time someone took charge and standardised smart tickets across the entire network. One standard national rail cars, accepted on all routes and a standard pice of kit for rail staff to use for ticket checks. The way they've been done so far is a mess.

 

[Watershed]

Do you not need to be able to prove what ticket is on said smart card? Are the train crew just to take a passengers word?

Thankfully our ticket machines can scan ITSO cards but if they didn't surely it would be no better than the old "it's on my phone but my phone died" argument.

If a TOC doesn't issue these cards why would they be expected to have the machines to read them?
I agree the whole network needs to have these cards available and therefore machines to read them, they used to be a bit of a faff.

Smartcards are, with a few exceptions (e.g. Tap2Go PAYG) not subject to any operator restrictions. They are valid on any operator along a permitted route.

Whether or not staff have the required equipment to inspect the ticket the passenger holds is irrelevant. If issued, e-tickets are valid on Southeastern or Merseyrail services even though their staff do not have the facilities to scan them. Similarly, contactless can now be used between Paddington and Reading, but not all GWR staff have the required readers to check contactless cards.

It's an issue the TOC must deal with; it's not the passenger's responsibility.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Every TOC has the capability to read Smartcards, DfT paid for it about 4 years ago so there shoould be no excuses.

 

[K.o.R]

The only interoperable smartcard I've seen is on Nexus in Newcastle, where I successfully put a ticket on an ENTCS pass. The ticket machines which can read smartcards won't allow you to buy tickets to anywhere that's not on their network, and also won't let you use a Railcard. The whole thing is a complete shambles.

 

[Wallsendmag]

The only interoperable smartcard I've seen is on Nexus in Newcastle, where I successfully put a ticket on an ENTCS pass. The ticket machines which can read smartcards won't allow you to buy tickets to anywhere that's not on their network, and also won't let you use a Railcard. The whole thing is a complete shambles.

Sorry but that's simply wrong, our Flowbird TVMs, Worldline MTis @station and TTK DORIS all allow loading any (English or Welsh) ticket activated for Smartcards to any Smartcard.

 

[K.o.R]

Sorry but that's simply wrong, our Flowbird TVMs, Worldline MTis @station and TTK DORIS all allow loading any (English or Welsh) ticket activated for Smartcards to any Smartcard.

Sorry, I should have separated that into two parts. The Nexus machines are the good ones that actually do what they're supposed to. The ones round my way (SWR and Southern) are useless, with limited options and not recognising other operators' cards.

 

[Alex365Dash]

Sorry, I should have separated that into two parts. The Nexus machines are the good ones that actually do what they're supposed to. The ones round my way (SWR and Southern) are useless, with limited options and not recognising other operators' cards.

That's interesting to note - I was coming back from a friend's on New Year's Day and managed to purchase a single from a South Western Railway ticket machine at Cosham and load it onto my GTR Key smartcard.
Possibly you're referring to ITSO compatibility rather than that of National Rail smartcards (excluding ScotRail)? If I were to present my GTR Key smartcard to a SWR ticket machine, it'd work fine, but presenting a Brighton & Hove Buses Key smartcard at a Southern ticket machine wouldn't - ticket machines will accept other National Rail smartcards (those with the symbol), but not ITSO smartcards in general.

On my one trip up to Newcastle, it did appear I could purchase a very limited set of tickets from Nexus ticket machines using any ITSO smartcard from when I tapped my Brighton & Hove Bus Key smartcard onto it. Then again, from your Nexus example, Nexus ticket machines are designed to work with ENCTS passes as Metro Gold Card tickets can also be loaded on them.

 

[K.o.R]

That's interesting to note - I was coming back from a friend's on New Year's Day and managed to purchase a single from a South Western Railway ticket machine at Cosham and load it onto my GTR Key smartcard.
Possibly you're referring to ITSO compatibility rather than that of National Rail smartcards (excluding ScotRail)? If I were to present my GTR Key smartcard to a SWR ticket machine, it'd work fine, but presenting a Brighton & Hove Buses Key smartcard at a Southern ticket machine wouldn't - ticket machines will accept other National Rail smartcards (those with the View attachment 113148 symbol), but not ITSO smartcards in general.

On my one trip up to Newcastle, it did appear I could purchase a very limited set of tickets from Nexus ticket machines using any ITSO smartcard from when I tapped my Brighton & Hove Bus Key smartcard onto it. Then again, from your Nexus example, Nexus ticket machines are designed to work with ENCTS passes as Metro Gold Card tickets can also be loaded on them.

I gave it a try today. I tapped my GWR card on a Southern ticket machine and all it would offer me were season tickets. A while back I tapped GWR on an SWR machine and it gave me more options, but still mostly restricted to SWR destinations.

You still can't use a Key card west of Warblington. Apparently you can; I stand corrected.

 

[Alex365Dash]

I gave it a try today. I tapped my GWR card on a Southern ticket machine and all it would offer me were season tickets. A while back I tapped GWR on an SWR machine and it gave me more options, but still mostly restricted to SWR destinations.

You still can't use a Key card west of Warblington.

The limited availability of tickets on a smartcard is the case regardless of which National Rail smartcard you hold - not all journeys offer tickets that can be loaded to a smartcard.

I assume your claim that Key cards aren’t usable west of Warblington stems from a general unavailability of smartcard tickets on the West Coastway between SWR managed and GTR managed areas - the ticket I mentioned purchasing earlier on my Key smartcard was an anytime single from Cosham to Portsmouth Stations, whilst if I turn up to Brighton and put in Portsmouth Harbour as my destination, all I get is seasons because the single and return tickets aren’t enabled for smartcard fulfilment. This would be the case regardless of whether I used a GTR Key smartcard, SWR touch smartcard or a Northern Smart card.

 

[K.o.R]

The limited availability of tickets on a smartcard is the case regardless of which National Rail smartcard you hold - not all journeys offer tickets that can be loaded to a smartcard.

I assume your claim that Key cards aren’t usable west of Warblington stems from a general unavailability of smartcard tickets on the West Coastway between SWR managed and GTR managed areas - the ticket I mentioned purchasing earlier on my Key smartcard was an anytime single from Cosham to Portsmouth Stations, whilst if I turn up to Brighton and put in Portsmouth Harbour as my destination, all I get is seasons because the single and return tickets aren’t enabled for smartcard fulfilment. This would be the case regardless of whether I used a GTR Key smartcard, SWR touch smartcard or a Northern Smart card.

I was going to say the leaflet on Southern's website that shows it stopping at Warblington but, I'll be darned, they've actually extended it to cover Portsmouth and Southampton now. So just, as you say, the lack of availability of smart tickets. Which is its own shambles honestly.