EMR applies to run more Nottingham to Lincoln trains from December 2025

[Failed Unit]

Certainly seems very lightly used when I've travelled on it.
The morning one (pre Covid) from Newark at around 0730 used to seem fairly well used, although in those days it was only a class 153.

Indeed, good arrival time at Lincoln for working. A few coming of the London Kings Cross service (myself included). If it was replaced with one from Newark Castle (Starting in Nottingham) then I am not sure how upset the passengers would be. However I am sure Newark passengers may also like that service because it starts at Newark so they are certain to get a seat.

The original plan was to have an hourly Newark Northgate service with alternating between LNER and EMR. I did hear that this may still happen with the LNER doing hourly (in the sets dead time) but having not seen any proposed timetables recent we will see.

 

[Trainman40083]

The extension to Crewe would move people away from the Leicester irrespective of the Longer journey time. Passengers to Derby will possibly have a faster journey. Even if it is all shacks it may still be a nicer ride because it is direct. Lincoln - Derby is something stakeholders have wanted for a while. Back in the CT days it existed but I don’t think either of the 2 trains per hour were as well used as they are today. (Ultimately it was flat crossing conflict that cause CT to reduce to 1 TPh. Not sure if the Derby train will take some of the Lincoln - Birmingham traffic, suspect that depends on the end to end journey time.

Last time I caught a through train from Lincoln to Derby is was a Swindon 120 DMU

 

[Failed Unit]

Last time I caught a through train from Lincoln to Derby is was a Swindon 120 DMU

From St Marks by any chance? I don’t recall when BR switched the route to Birmingham. It was the early 1990s it was switched to Coventry (the Birmingham via Leicester). As stated earlier in thread CT did run for a short period Shrewsbury via Leicester and Hereford via Derby from Lincoln.

I guess what we really want is a clock face hourly service on all route. Peterborough- Doncaster should be possible with 4 units. But is it with decent connections? I think the joint line will see a lot of extra users if it is clockface. Anyone know how the demand between Lincoln and Spalding has changed now the service operates longer?

 

[Trainman40083]

From St Marks by any chance? I don’t recall when BR switched the route to Birmingham. It was the early 1990s it was switched to Coventry (the Birmingham via Leicester). As stated earlier in thread CT did run for a short period Shrewsbury via Leicester and Hereford via Derby from Lincoln.

I guess what we really want is a clock face hourly service on all route. Peterborough- Doncaster should be possible with 4 units. But is it with decent connections? I think the joint line will see a lot of extra users if it is clockface. Anyone know how the demand between Lincoln and Spalding has changed now the service operates longer?

Certainly was St Marks. Wonder how much freight uses the Joint Line and whether that restricts more passenger trains?

 

[peteb]

Let's hope EMR plans better and more achievable connections into/out of long distance intercity trains to go with this?

 

[55018ballymoss]

Is the reason for this that there is some genuine incompatibility with 170s? This is unlikely, as they were designed to be a similar loading gauge to 158s and diesels don't generally have signalling compatibility issues. So it may just be the case that nobody has bothered to apply for clearance.

I suspect you might be right. Based on conversations with EMR Operations and Planning teams I am not impressed, and the idea that this is an oversight could easily be argued.

 

[bunnahabhain]

Interesting point on Humber, I noticed recently that some jobs on that line change crew at Habrough which must be inefficient with then waiting to travel pass to/from Lincoln, and then the possibility of unreliability if that service is delayed.

They only do that because its a "fiddle" for the traincrew, it isn't booked.

 

[norbitonflyer]

[Lincoln - Northgate] Certainly seems very lightly used when I've travelled on it.

They used to be extremely busy before 2019, when LNER started running direct trains between Lincoln and Kings Cross at civilised hours. The last time I used one it was standing room only on a mid-afternoon service. (I always preferred to connect at Peterborough, but sometimes needs must)

 

[takethegame]

I guess what we really want is a clock face hourly service on all route. Peterborough- Doncaster should be possible with 4 units. But is it with decent connections? I think the joint line will see a lot of extra users if it is clockface. Anyone know how the demand between Lincoln and Spalding has changed now the service operates longer?

You could run a clock face service all day between Lincoln and Peterborough with just 2 units, to give an hourly service between Spalding and Peterborough and every two hours between Spalding and Lincoln and by using a third unit at peaks to give an hourly service at those times. Off-peak, every two hours between Spalding and Lincoln is probably sufficient as long it's reliable and clockface. Additional support could be provided by extending Doncaster to Lincoln services to Sleaford for the missing hours from Spalding.

 

[SeanM1997]

I see the application is for Crewe - Lincoln 11 times a day Monday-Saturday. Does this exclude the missing hours and assuming early/late will start/end at other stations?

 

[High Dyke]

Anyone know how the demand between Lincoln and Spalding has changed now the service operates longer?

I am reliably informed that there has been an increased usage between stations along that route.

You could run a clock face service all day between Lincoln and Peterborough with just 2 units, to give an hourly service between Spalding and Peterborough and every two hours between Spalding and Lincoln and by using a third unit at peaks to give an hourly service at those times. Off-peak, every two hours between Spalding and Lincoln is probably sufficient as long it's reliable and clockface. Additional support could be provided by extending Doncaster to Lincoln services to Sleaford for the missing hours from Spalding.

The amount of freight that runs that way may preclude a 'Spalding shuttle', like used to operate early morning / late evening. Equally, by changing the service pattern would have a detrimental effect on passengers at Sleaford, Ruskington and Methringham. Don't they matter?

 

[takethegame]

I am reliably informed that there has been an increased usage between stations along that route.

The amount of freight that runs that way may preclude a 'Spalding shuttle', like used to operate early morning / late evening. Equally, by changing the service pattern would have a detrimental effect on passengers at Sleaford, Ruskington and Methringham. Don't they matter?

As far as I know, the Spalding to Sleaford section is/was the least used by passengers, so my suggestion was to run overlapping Doncaster to Sleaford and Lincoln to Peterborough services to give all stations an hourly service, with the exception of trains between Spalding to Sleaford every two hours off peak. This only requires 2 units for the majority of the day for the Lincoln to Peterborough section, where each unit runs Lincoln to Peterborough, back to Spalding, back to Peterborough and back to Lincoln. With a maximum dwell of 10 minutes at Spalding, I'd hope the freight could still be fitted in around these trains?

Whilst detrimental in some ways, it could provide a clock face service without the random gaps and timings we have at present. Obviously, a hourly clock face service without any gaps would be far better, especially if they ever sort out Sleaford to provide more capacity and better connections between the different services.

 

[Failed Unit]

As far as I know, the Spalding to Sleaford section is/was the least used by passengers, so my suggestion was to run overlapping Doncaster to Sleaford and Lincoln to Peterborough services to give all stations an hourly service, with the exception of trains between Spalding to Sleaford every two hours off peak. This only requires 2 units for the majority of the day for the Lincoln to Peterborough section, where each unit runs Lincoln to Peterborough, back to Spalding, back to Peterborough and back to Lincoln. With a maximum dwell of 10 minutes at Spalding, I'd hope the freight could still be fitted in around these trains?

Whilst detrimental in some ways, it could provide a clock face service without the random gaps and timings we have at present. Obviously, a hourly clock face service without any gaps would be far better, especially if they ever sort out Sleaford to provide more capacity and better connections between the different services.

If all the trains were running they would need 4 units anyway, A diagram was taken out of the timetable so it is down to 3 units. On the current timings 4 units could do a clock face hourly service but I am not sure if the dwell times at Peterborough and Doncaster would comply with the rules of the timetable. Late running would see trains turned at Gainsborough or Spalding. However I don’t think the joint line has being optimised to the various line speed improvements over the years.

I don’t use the line often, but with the reduction of the service to Newark Northgate I have used it to get to Peterbough. The Sleaford - Spalding section was reasonably loaded, but my unscientific observations are that they are passengers that travelled the whole distance. Not many got off at Spalding from the Lincoln direction. If these passengers would have traditionally gone via Newark it is impossible to tell. But I think the proposed clock face hourly service will promote travel between Spalding and Lincoln. However as Spalding is so close to Peterborough, I don’t think people will be heading that way as much to college / work.

 

[takethegame]

If all the trains were running they would need 4 units anyway, A diagram was taken out of the timetable so it is down to 3 units. On the current timings 4 units could do a clock face hourly service but I am not sure if the dwell times at Peterborough and Doncaster would comply with the rules of the timetable. Late running would see trains turned at Gainsborough or Spalding. However I don’t think the joint line has being optimised to the various line speed improvements over the years.

I don’t use the line often, but with the reduction of the service to Newark Northgate I have used it to get to Peterbough. The Sleaford - Spalding section was reasonably loaded, but my unscientific observations are that they are passengers that travelled the whole distance. Not many got off at Spalding from the Lincoln direction. If these passengers would have traditionally gone via Newark it is impossible to tell. But I think the proposed clock face hourly service will promote travel between Spalding and Lincoln. However as Spalding is so close to Peterborough, I don’t think people will be heading that way as much to college / work.

I'd like to see the line speeds improved further to 90/100 mph where possible, especially as the majority of services are 170s and could provide a better, fast diversionary route when the ECML is closed. It would potentially provide an alternative (and probably as quick) routing for ECML Lincoln to Kings Cross services freeing up capacity on the ECML. You could even divert Liverpool to Norwich services via Sleaford and Spalding to provide more service options/better connectivity and free up capacity between Grantham and Stoke. Using the Werrington dive-under, these trains would no longer need to cross the ECML at Peterborough as well reducing conflicts there. However, all of the above would undoubtedly mean investment in signalling to remove the ridiculously long sections, and would create a larger speed differential with freight services.

 

[NorthStaffs]

I see the application is for Crewe - Lincoln 11 times a day Monday-Saturday. Does this exclude the missing hours and assuming early/late will start/end at other stations?

I hope so.The missing hours on the Crewe Darby leg are particularly frustrating frustrating on a Saturday.
Slightly off topic but to me this application shows just how Eastern orientated EMR are. Still nothing then on the franchise promise to bring in an a morning start on the Crewe to Derby line.

 

[ChrisC]

I definitely think that extending the Crewe to Newark trains through to Lincoln would be a good idea. It would be helpful for Lincoln passengers to have a through train to Derby for far better onward journey connections than the trains to Leicester. I also think it will be good to restore a regular through service to Lincoln from some of the stations between Nottingham and Newark and this could improve the number of passengers using some of the busier stations like Carlton and Lowdham. I have certainly missed being able to do the short drive over to Lowdham and get a train direct to Lincoln.

In addition to sorting out timetables within Lincolnshire I also think that high fares on some routes, especially on the Joint Line, must be deterring passengers. Lincolnshire is a huge rural county with poor public transport in many areas. Train fares on the route between Nottingham-Lincoln-Grimsby/Cleethorpes are quite reasonable. Fares for many journeys within Lincolnshire are very expensive with Off Peak Day Returns in excess of £20 for journeys such as Skegness/Boston to Lincoln or Skegness/Boston to Spalding. Some of these journeys have also very poor connections at Sleaford. Even some journeys wholly on the Joint Line such as Spalding to Lincoln or Sleaford to Peterborough also have fares in excess of £20. It cost more to travel on some journeys wholly within Lincolnshire than it does to travel all the way from Cleethorpes to Nottingham.

 

[Banham7]

I definitely think that extending the Crewe to Newark trains through to Lincoln would be a good idea. It would be helpful for Lincoln passengers to have a through train to Derby for far better onward journey connections than the trains to Leicester. I also think it will be good to restore a regular through service to Lincoln from some of the stations between Nottingham and Newark and this could improve the number of passengers using some of the busier stations like Carlton and Lowdham. I have certainly missed being able to do the short drive over to Lowdham and get a train direct to Lincoln.

In addition to sorting out timetables within Lincolnshire I also think that high fares on some routes, especially on the Joint Line, must be deterring passengers. Lincolnshire is a huge rural county with poor public transport in many areas. Train fares on the route between Nottingham-Lincoln-Grimsby/Cleethorpes are quite reasonable. Fares for many journeys within Lincolnshire are very expensive with Off Peak Day Returns in excess of £20 for journeys such as Skegness/Boston to Lincoln or Skegness/Boston to Spalding. Some of these journeys have also very poor connections at Sleaford. Even some journeys wholly on the Joint Line such as Spalding to Lincoln or Sleaford to Peterborough also have fares in excess of £20. It cost more to travel on some journeys wholly within Lincolnshire than it does to travel all the way from Cleethorpes to Nottingham.

Agree with you on the high fares, Lincoln to Doncaster especially is unnecessarily high. I do hope they sort it out soon, I'd always go via Retford and use Hull Trains / LNER to make most of it as it's any permitted!

I've noticed they've *silently* removed Advance fares between Lincoln and Leicester, which were incredibly cheap ranging from only around £2-7, and replaced it with advances between Lincoln and Nottingham at the same price. It's a shame as those travelling towards Leicester face a price increase, however those changing or leaving the train at Nottingham now have an advantage.