EMR Class 170 updates

[WesternLancer]

am looking forward to EMR running 170s - though I hope they get a decent internal refurb as assume they need it.

 

[adc82140]

170420’s now out on driver training runs between Etches Park and Leicester in case it hasn’t been mentioned already.

I've seen it quoted in many places that driver training was off due to not being able to have more than one person in the cab. This has obviously been resolved. Is anyone at liberty to say how, and whether the agreement has been reached with all TOCs?

 

[Roast Veg]

Relaxation of social distancing requirements from 2m to 1m with masks. Not possible in all stock because of the distance between seats, don't know about the situation in *ostars but since the driver's seat isn't central I'd assume it to be ok.

Foreign operators have put up screens in the cabs, but not here.

 

[CJSwan]

am looking forward to EMR running 170s - though I hope they get a decent internal refurb as assume they need it.

The ScotRail ones still have their original interiors! Except new carpets, but all original seat covers.

 

[fgwrich]

The ScotRail ones still have their original interiors! Except new carpets, but all original seat covers.

I don't think some of them even had the luxury of new carpets - I recall taking one (416 I think) last summer which certainly didn't. However, they aren't the first unit to be treated that way - until their last year or two, several of the dreaded "Haymarket Eight" batch of 158s still retained their Wales & West carpet.

So with last weeks move, I presume 418 (In half branded ScotRail livery) is the last one to come down?

 

[43055]

I don't think some of them even had the luxury of new carpets - I recall taking one (416 I think) last summer which certainly didn't. However, they aren't the first unit to be treated that way - until their last year or two, several of the dreaded "Haymarket Eight" batch of 158s still retained their Wales & West carpet.

So with last weeks move, I presume 418 (In half branded ScotRail livery) is the last one to come down?

418 is still in service with ScotRail (according to the unit allocations on RTT) and the only one left to come from Scotland.

 

[OTRail]

418 is still in service with ScotRail (according to the unit allocations on RTT) and the only one left to come from Scotland.

Is there an estimate as to when it’s transferring to EMR?

 

[43055]

Is there an estimate as to when it’s transferring to EMR?

No idea but post 176 on the previous page suggests it might be down by the end of the month.

 

[Speedbird96]

Might have been seeing things but a bit surprised to have seen a West Midlands Railways Class 170 at Derby Etches Park this morning, the view slightly obscured as it was behind the main shed.

Lots of talk when Northern took on the 170s on what was stated on here as "unsuitable work" with fears of poor time keeping and overheating. They are running fine, with early arrivals. I really don't think EMR will have any issues.

Prior to East Midlands Trains, Class 170s were frequently used on regional services across the East Midlands under Central Trains and operated fine with little issues, though it was 13 years ago!

 

[43055]

Might have been seeing things but a bit surprised to have seen a West Midlands Railways Class 170 at Derby Etches Park this morning, the view slightly obscured as it was behind the main shed.

Looks like its on a day trip. As there is a path from Tyseley that arrived at 0806 and a return one at 1726.

 

[OTRail]

No idea but post 176 on the previous page suggests it might be down by the end of the month.

Makes sense seeing as the others all transferred around the same periods (although 416 and 417 came just before lockdown).

 

[Mugby]

The ones I managed to observe when passing by Eastcroft yesterday look as if they retain first class but as de-classified.

I imagine those seats will be much sought after when people cotton on to the situation.

 

[43055]

Might have been seeing things but a bit surprised to have seen a West Midlands Railways Class 170 at Derby Etches Park this morning, the view slightly obscured as it was behind the main shed.

A look on twitter showed a XC 170 and a WMR 172 at Etches Park as well this week by the looks of things using the wheel lathe.

The ones I managed to observe when passing by Eastcroft yesterday look as if they retain first class but as de-classified.

I imagine those seats will be much sought after when people cotton on to the situation.

Im sure the 1+2 seating will be replaced in at some point with the refurbishment.

 

[grumpyoldman01]

As I recall, all of the EMR regional routes saw Turbostars in Central days.

The service pattern was quite different to what is presently in existence, and I recall travelling on one on a Skegness - Cardiff service (between Skegness and Derby), and on Norwich services many times; to be honest, I much preferred them with their Lazzerini seats on a long distance run to a (then) Virgin Voyager - I found the seats fitted to Central's Turbostars far more comfortable than those endured for a trip to Bristol on a 220/221 (are they Antolin?). For a while, the Matlock - Derby service was extended to/from Birmingham (ORCATS raiding?) and so Turbostars could be found up the Derwent Valley on Central services, as well as on the MML Matlock - St Pancras service. Looking back at photos taken during the Central period, I have 158s on the Derby - Crewe service, but everything else with Central on it seems to be a 170.

To me, if the EMR 170s transferred from the West Midlands retain the original seats and seating layout found back in Central days, they will be superior to the 158s refurbished by East Midlands Trains presently used on the Liverpool - Norwich service; personally, I enjoyed travelling to/from East Anglia on the 158s in as built condition to what is experienced today, but the Central 170s were best of all.

So I'm looking forward to the return of Turbostars; I just hope that they're as good from a passenger's viewpoint as when they were introduced by Central roundly 20 years ago.

 

[Chrisgr31]

It the seats in the 170's are the same as the seats in Southerns 171s they are the most comfortable seats on the network, with the possible exception of those in the 125s.

The Turbostars remain great trains, hence why sensible people down south dont want to lose them. Some people though seem to think they should be replaced with battery hybrids, not sure why.

 

[DannyMich2018]

As I recall, all of the EMR regional routes saw Turbostars in Central days.

The service pattern was quite different to what is presently in existence, and I recall travelling on one on a Skegness - Cardiff service (between Skegness and Derby), and on Norwich services many times; to be honest, I much preferred them with their Lazzerini seats on a long distance run to a (then) Virgin Voyager - I found the seats fitted to Central's Turbostars far more comfortable than those endured for a trip to Bristol on a 220/221 (are they Antolin?). For a while, the Matlock - Derby service was extended to/from Birmingham (ORCATS raiding?) and so Turbostars could be found up the Derwent Valley on Central services, as well as on the MML Matlock - St Pancras service. Looking back at photos taken during the Central period, I have 158s on the Derby - Crewe service, but everything else with Central on it seems to be a 170.

To me, if the EMR 170s transferred from the West Midlands retain the original seats and seating layout found back in Central days, they will be superior to the 158s refurbished by East Midlands Trains presently used on the Liverpool - Norwich service; personally, I enjoyed travelling to/from East Anglia on the 158s in as built condition to what is experienced today, but the Central 170s were best of all.

So I'm looking forward to the return of Turbostars; I just hope that they're as good from a passenger's viewpoint as when they were introduced by Central roundly 20 years ago.

Really interesting- I used to live in Lincolnshire in the 2001-2004 and 2006 era, The Skegness line was most varied and seen, Class 153 (single, multiple and with other units), 156, 158 and Class 170 with the very occcasional Class 150s in the summmer. It will be very much like back to old days with having some 170s back! I did like the original Central Trains interiors, had good leg room, window alignment generally good with a good number of table seats but the refurbisment at least for XC lost much of this. I believe when Class 170s were first delivered they used to get tested on the Derby-Matlock service so if there were any problems they were not far away from their builder. Although many people on here (including me!) think not all services such as Leicester-Linocln and Nottingham-Matlock are best suited to these units at least they be a step up from current units particularly with a good refurb.

 

[raetiamann]

With EMT retaining the Nottm - Liverpool route there won't be enough 170s to cover all the services. It was already difficult to understand where, without the Southern 17x, sufficient sets would come from to satisfy to diagrams and so it seems the EMT 3 class ideal may now be impossible.

 

[OTRail]

With EMT retaining the Nottm - Liverpool route there won't be enough 170s to cover all the services. It was already difficult to understand where, without the Southern 17x, sufficient sets would come from to satisfy to diagrams and so it seems the EMT 3 class ideal may now be impossible.

When was this announced if true?

 

[Wyrleybart]

The Turbostars remain great trains, hence why sensible people down south dont want to lose them. Some people though seem to think they should be replaced with battery hybrids, not sure why.

How about the stupidity of running DMUs over electrified routes into the capital for starters?
If Britain wasn't such a risk paranoid country, Uckfield, the Marshes and many other DC islands would have been juiced and the 171s returned to 170s and the north.
Battery hybrid versions of what are already used by the TOC, seem to be the least worst solution IMHO

 

[RailWonderer]

With EMT retaining the Nottm - Liverpool route there won't be enough 170s to cover all the services. It was already difficult to understand where, without the Southern 17x, sufficient sets would come from to satisfy to diagrams and so it seems the EMT 3 class ideal may now be impossible.

It is possible TPE sub leases spare 185s to cover Nottingham-Liverpool if need be. They have a surplus of them after the IETs and their Nova 3s, and EMR will be short.

 

[Murray J]

It is possible TPE sub leases spare 185s to cover Nottingham-Liverpool if need be. They have a surplus of them after the IETs and their Nova 3s, and EMR will be short.

yes, I think TPE transferring 185s to EMR is certainly a possibility.

 

[raetiamann]

yes, I think TPE transferring 185s to EMR is certainly a possibility.

I think there would be a benefit in that. In addition if drivers were tuped there would be less training required. Also I think the 185 is one of the better ones to ride in.

 

[py_megapixel]

I think there would be a benefit in that. In addition if drivers were tuped there would be less training required. Also I think the 185 is one of the better ones to ride in.

They're lovely for the passenger, but there is the problem that they are extremely fuel inefficient and noisy, being built with powerful engines for the hilly TP routes.

Let's not forget that 158-170 multiple working is entirely possible. So, if EMR wanted to retain some 158s, they wouldn't have to be diagrammed separately. That might reduce operational complexity slightly, though I doubt it would make a huge amount of difference.

 

[raetiamann]

So are you saying it is beyond the capability of Siemens to find a way of reducing fuel usage.

Out of interest does anyone have the fuel figures for the 158, 170 & 185s?

 

[SteveyBee131]

So are you saying it is beyond the capability of Siemens to find a way of reducing fuel usage.

Out of interest does anyone have the fuel figures for the 158, 170 & 185s?

I'm no expert so could be completely wrong, but the 185s are more powerful of these three by a considerable degree (750hp per car, as opposed to 350hp per car on a 158, or 422hp per car on a 170). My theory is that more power coming out needs more fuel going in.

185s already have economy modifications, where 1 engine per unit can be shut down once line speed is reached. Short of derating the engines on the 185s, which would somewhat defeat the object of them (tackling the stiff Pennine gradients), what could Siemens do?

 

[raetiamann]

I'm no expert so could be completely wrong, but the 185s are more powerful of these three by a considerable degree (750hp per car, as opposed to 350hp per car on a 158, or 422hp per car on a 170). My theory is that more power coming out needs more fuel going in.

185s already have economy modifications, where 1 engine per unit can be shut down once line speed is reached. Short of derating the engines on the 185s, which would somewhat defeat the object of them (tackling the stiff Pennine gradients), what could Siemens do?

Shutting down one engine sounds a good way of reducing consumption; I wasn't aware that was an option.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Shutting down one engine sounds a good way of reducing consumption; I wasn't aware that was an option.

It happens regularly on downhill runs (Diggle to Manchester or Marsden to Mirfield) or certainly did previously.

 

[OTRail]

The first 3 car WMR 170 has been disbanded at Tyseley. 170635's centre car is on a low loader, awaiting forward movement to ??.

Unit has been renumbered 170535 as a consequence.

Mark

Taken from the WMR livery thread - looks like the 170/6s destined for EMR will be renumbered as /5s

 

[greatvoyager]

Taken from the WMR livery thread - looks like the 170/6s destined for EMR will be renumbered as /5s

Does that mean the XC /5s will be renumbered as /6s?

 

[OTRail]

Does that mean the XC /5s will be renumbered as /6s?

I’m presuming so - in all honesty I don’t know why XC didn’t receive all the /6s in the first place.