EMR Connect train reliability

[Mike395]

The availability of Class 360 units for the EMR Connect route seems to have plummeted again recently. My intended train south this morning was cancelled entirely due to the unavailability of trains and my journey home is on an absolutely packed 4 car service.

Is this the start of the refurbishment programme and associated long term gain, or are we back to the stage a couple of years ago where a significant percentage of the fleet is unavailable due to being broken in some way?

 

[liamf656]

As far as I know no 360s have actually been sent off for refurbishment just yet, so I'm gonna go down the reliability route. The 222s seem to go through bad phases too

 

[D365]

A real pity that there aren’t any 360s ’spare’… oh…

 

[AirRail]

Apologies if this is considered off topic. But with the 360 fleets reliability issues that seem to creep up en-masse, it got me thinking. Are the Class 350 fleets reliability out there considered to be much better than the 360s?

I appreciate it's not as easy to just replace a fleet that will be in a contract. But in terms of Desiros, if they were known to be more reliable, then the 350s would seem a better type for EMR Connect services having the connected gangways alone. With the 350s now becoming available and no start of any refurbishment to the 360s, in an ideal world it could be the perfect opportunity to switch up the fleet.

 

[al_557]

Apologies if this is considered off topic. But with the 360 fleets reliability issues that seem to creep up en-masse, it got me thinking. Are the Class 350 fleets reliability out there considered to be much better than the 360s?

I appreciate it's not as easy to just replace a fleet that will be in a contract. But in terms of Desiros, if they were known to be more reliable, then the 350s would seem a better type for EMR Connect services having the connected gangways alone. With the 350s now becoming available and no start of any refurbishment to the 360s, in an ideal world it could be the perfect opportunity to switch up the fleet.

It's the 350/2's that are available soon which will also need to be refurbished and are not set up to go 110mph like the other 350 sub classes, so they will need that mod as well.

Other than that they'd be a decent option to replace the 360's.

 

[AJDesiro]

It's the 350/2's that are available soon which will also need to be refurbished and are not set up to go 110mph like the other 350 sub classes, so they will need that mod as well.

Other than that they'd be a decent option to replace the 360's.

350/2s received 110mph mods around 2017/2018. But when it comes to reliability, the 360s must be almost identical mechanically to the 350s, so it must be something relating to maintenance arrangements rather than the units themselves.

 

[Supercoss]

The units particularly whilst operating in multiple ,are having difficulty passing through Overhead Line Neutral Sections ( OHNS ) with onboard circuit breakers known at Vacuum Circuit Breakers operating and not resetting . Investigations into cause underway - , the driver should shut off power and coast under these OHNS at Hendon, Elstree & Sundon, north of Leagrave , since further electrification work to the route a slight supply voltage difference has been mooted as the reason in separate electrical sections either side of each ‘ neutral’ section . This then affects 2 x 360 in multiple but not by comparison a class 700 which although having two pantographs passes under ohns ‘ in one go ‘ ( one VCB operation ) rather than two separate VCB operations with a pair of 360s in Multiple Some fine tuning thus necessary. If you travel in pantograph car you can here the roof mounted circuit breaker open & close , makes some passengers jump.

 

[tfw756rider]

A real pity that there aren’t any 360s ’spare’… oh…

Weren't there only five 360/2s, and weren't they non-standard units that couldn't be used outside of the airport services they were used on?

 

[TheGrew]

The units particularly whilst operating in multiple ,are having difficulty passing through Overhead Line Neutral Sections ( OHNS ) with onboard circuit breakers known at Vacuum Circuit Breakers operating and not resetting . Investigations into cause underway - , the driver should shut off power and coast under these OHNS at Hendon, Elstree & Sundon, north of Leagrave , since further electrification work to the route a slight supply voltage difference has been mooted as the reason in separate electrical sections either side of each ‘ neutral’ section . This then affects 2 x 360 in multiple but not by comparison a class 700 which although having two pantographs passes under ohns ‘ in one go ‘ ( one VCB operation ) rather than two separate VCB operations with a pair of 360s in Multiple Some fine tuning thus necessary. If you travel in pantograph car you can here the roof mounted circuit breaker open & close , makes some passengers jump.

That's interesting, I wonder if reforming the 360s as 8 car units using intermediate 350/2 coaches might help then? Would no doubt also require software mods though.

 

[43096]

Weren't there only five 360/2s,

Yes. Now only three left.

and weren't they non-standard units that couldn't be used outside of the airport services they were used on?

No. It was an urban myth that they lacked TPWS.

 

[43096]

That's interesting, I wonder if reforming the 360s as 8 car units using intermediate 350/2 coaches might help then? Would no doubt also require software mods though.

How does that help given the 350 is all but identical electrically to a 360?

 

[43074]

Weren't there only five 360/2s, and weren't they non-standard units that couldn't be used outside of the airport services they were used on?

EMR only have 14 diagrams for 21 units - 2 of those are essentially depot swaps so EMR have plenty of 'spares' at their disposal.

More of a problem is the way maintenance is split between Bedford Cauldwell and Northampton Kings Heath, so it doesn't take long for a backlog of broken units to appear. At Cauldwell they are short of space, partly because it is shared with Thameslink who themselves are short of 12 car stabling in the Bedford area, whilst using Northampton is inefficient as it is off route and requires units to be dragged over there.

It's an utter mess, which to be fair isn't all of EMRs making. They don't help themselves with diagrams which don't cycle the units naturally through Bedford Cauldwell, so units have to be tripped from either Kettering or Cricklewood for attention.

 

[Roast Veg]

That's interesting, I wonder if reforming the 360s as 8 car units using intermediate 350/2 coaches might help then? Would no doubt also require software mods though.

Or you could just do the requisite software mods to fix the alleged vcb issue without reforming anything.

 

[DanNCL]

Weren't there only five 360/2s, and weren't they non-standard units that couldn't be used outside of the airport services they were used on?

They didn’t have TPWS but that wouldn’t have been impossible to resolve.

That's interesting, I wonder if reforming the 360s as 8 car units using intermediate 350/2 coaches might help then? Would no doubt also require software mods though.

That wouldn’t work as you’d only have two motor vehicles (the two driving vehicles) in an 8 car formation, it wouldn’t be powerful enough.

Yes. Now only three left.

No. It was an urban myth that they lacked TPWS.

They lacked TPWS. They were fitted with ATP, a better system than TPWS that was equipped on all of the track they ran on, they had no need for TPWS so weren’t fitted, same with the 332s.

 

[43096]

They lacked TPWS. They were fitted with ATP, a better system than TPWS that was equipped on all of the track they ran on, they had no need for TPWS so weren’t fitted, same with the 332s.

Sorry, that is not correct. They are TPWS fitted. The below photo (from https://www.dawlishtrains.com/uk-emu-cabs-3xxx.html) clearly shows both ATP and TPWS cab equipment.

 

[DannyMich2018]

In my few trips of a 360 I've noticed the toilet is unreliable, at least once it was out of use, the 360s only have one toilet so a big problem. When we went from Kettering to Luton last year no working toilet so passengers would need to swap between units at a station or use station loos.

 

[ainsworth74]

Sorry, that is not correct. They are TPWS fitted. The below photo (from https://www.dawlishtrains.com/uk-emu-cabs-3xxx.html) clearly shows both ATP and TPWS cab equipment.

All they needed was trip-cocks and they'd have the full set of safety systems!

 

[Roast Veg]

All they needed was trip-cocks and they'd have the full set of safety systems!

And ETCS, and TVM, and Indusi, and...

 

[DarloRich]

It cant help having to drag them to and from Northampton for main dealer work! that must impact availability and time to fix bigger problems

 

[Spartacus]

It does seem that a big daily problem with a 360 is more of a 'when' than 'if', often more than one, and more than enough to make up for the odd day when there isn't an issue.

 

[43066]

They lacked TPWS. They were fitted with ATP, a better system than TPWS that was equipped on all of the track they ran on, they had no need for TPWS so weren’t fitted, same with the 332s.

They lacked ETCS, which precluded them from continuing in service once the Heathrow tunnels switched over to that. You may be thinking of that?

 

[bramling]

It cant help having to drag them to and from Northampton for main dealer work! that must impact availability and time to fix bigger problems

I’m sure this is the main problem, along with the face that services run from A to C with the minor depot at B, and no particularly convenient way of getting units to/from the mid point at short notice.

Would Hornsey have any spare capacity to maintain them? If so could the service be transferred to GTR. Is there a convenient electrified route between St Pancras and Hornsey?

 

[Spartacus]

I’m sure this is the main problem, along with the face that services run from A to C with the minor depot at B, and no particularly convenient way of getting units to/from the mid point at short notice.

Would Hornsey have any spare capacity to maintain them? If so could the service be transferred to GTR. Is there a convenient electrified route between St Pancras and Hornsey?

The most convenient would be just to reverse at St Pancras low level, you sometimes see 700s doing it. I don't know if clearance for the 360s would be an issue though with no Automatic Train Operation (ATO)...

 

[43066]

Would Hornsey have any spare capacity to maintain them? If so could the service be transferred to GTR. Is there a convenient electrified route between St Pancras and Hornsey?

Usual issues apply. The EMR drivers who sign 360s all do other things too, so couldn’t neatly be TUPEd over, plus Kettering do most of the Connect work, with London drivers covering the first and last services into St Pancras and a smattering of other services throughout the day. At least one link at Derby also sign them.

Bedford Cauldwell is being fitted out to allow more maintenance to be done there (supposedly)….

I don't know if clearance for the 360s would be an issue though with no Automatic Train Operation (ATO)...

Lack of ETCS shouldn’t matter the tunnels as signals have been retained in the Thameslink core, and (I believe) in the Canal Tunnels. Potentially an issue on the ECML, though, as ETCS rolls out and they remove the signals?

 

[D365]

Lack of ETCS shouldn’t matter the tunnels as signals have been retained in the Thameslink core, and (I believe) in the Canal Tunnels. Potentially an issue on the ECML, though, as ETCS rolls out and they remove the signals?

Let us hope that Porterbrook and Angel Trains are working together to commission an ETCS installation design for their Desiro fleets.

 

[43066]

Let us hope that Porterbrook and Angel Trains are working together to commission an ETCS installation design for their Desiro fleets.

Why would they be?

It wouldn’t make any sense for them to do so, given that the there are no plans to deploy it on the MML anytime soon, and I’ll eat my (proverbial) hat if it rolls out in the next couple of decades or so on any of the others (being the SWML and the WCML).

In fact, I’d bet my entire pension that the Desiro fleet will be long retired, and that everyone contributing to this forum in 2025 will be long dead, before ETCS gets to the outer reaches of the UK network.