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EMR Court Fines Received 1 year later from Marston Recovery

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WesternLancer

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How can I prove I’m the wrong person and what happens if they have found out I’ve given fake details(Not that I recall) do I get charged more or stay the same etc


Yes I understand that, thank you


Yes which I’ve tried to comply with majority of the time


Okay I’ll try that out then


I Found out about the previous one in July and paid it off today


Yes Unfortunately i only found out today i can appeal
Proof of the wrong person : they take a description of the person questioned usually

Are you the wrong person?

For someone who has been convicted by a court etc I must say you have a fairly vague memory of what happened. That won’t help you get your ducks in a row if you want to try and sort this all out because people won’t be inclined to believe that you don’t remember.

Also this is not an Appeal process. It would be about re setting the clock so the case gets heard with your knowledge unless you can persuade the railway not to re prosecute you.

To have any chance of doing that you need to convince them you wil have valid tickets 100% of the time and your comments in some posts don’t really convince me you are bothered enough to do that.
 
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Proof of the wrong person : they take a description of the person questioned usually

Are you the wrong person?

For someone who has been convicted by a court etc I must say you have a fairly vague memory of what happened. That won’t help you get your ducks in a row if you want to try and sort this all out because people won’t be inclined to believe that you don’t remember.

Also this is not an Appeal process. It would be about re setting the clock so the case gets heard with your knowledge unless you can persuade the railway not to re prosecute you.

To have any chance of doing that you need to convince them you wil have valid tickets 100% of the time and your comments in some posts don’t really convince me you are bothered enough to do that.
Im sorry I dont remember my train journeys from over a year ago as it can be anytime during 2023 or 2022 or before that even. I know that the case started in court in september 2023 and not been given a incident date, I dont think im the person however i cant 100% that im the wrong person either because i dont have memory of giving fake details and if i did i wouldnt use my name however the case has my name and a wrong address

I can show all valid tickets i have as i have email receipts of each ticket ive ever purchased so i will be able to convince them, im very much bothered to do that as it is a serious matter

The SD is simply an application to restart the process, there is no guarantee that the court will agree to it. They will be aware of the earlier action (which you settled), and may take the opinion that this is more of the same.

If the reviewing judge feels that the outcome will be the same, then the request to rerun the case can be refused (as basically, it just kicks the can down the road and the outcome would be the same). If the merits don’t meet the required standard (even when you had no knowledge of the process itself) it can be refused, and if you paid a fee to lodge it this won’t be returned.
I understand and im not worried now bout the previous case as i was coerced and pressured into paying but now ive found out theres a process to appeal which ill do and thank you for your information
 

WesternLancer

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Im sorry I dont remember my train journeys from over a year ago as it can be anytime during 2023 or 2022 or before that even. I know that the case started in court in september 2023 and not been given a incident date, I dont think im the person however i cant 100% that im the wrong person either because i dont have memory of giving fake details and if i did i wouldnt use my name however the case has my name and a wrong address

I can show all valid tickets i have as i have email receipts of each ticket ive ever purchased so i will be able to convince them, im very much bothered to do that as it is a serious matter


I understand and im not worried now bout the previous case as i was coerced and pressured into paying but now ive found out theres a process to appeal which ill do and thank you for your information
I’m not expecting you to remember all your train journeys as of course that’s not reasonable. But I think it’s reasonable for you to remember occasions when your ticket is checked, you are told you have an invalid ticket and your name and address details are taken for further investigation.

After all this happens very rarely if ever to most people.

But if you do an SD and the case is re heard I presume you will have the chance to dispute it was you. And if you get more details of the case and date of alleged incident etc you may be able to check your ticket records to see if you travelled that day or if it jogs your memory.
 
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I’m not expecting you to remember all your train journeys as of course that’s not reasonable. But I think it’s reasonable for you to remember occasions when your ticket is checked, you are told you have an invalid ticket and your name and address details are taken for further investigation.

After all this happens very rarely if ever to most people.

But if you do an SD and the case is re heard I presume you will have the chance to dispute it was you. And if you get more details of the case and date of alleged incident etc you may be able to check your ticket records to see if you travelled that day or if it jogs your memory.
Yes which ill do tomorrow when i call marston recovery again as i wasnt given a incident date, now if i report this to police that someone else is using my name with a fake address and it gets proven that i was the wrong person will i be acquitted of everything? and if its proven that i was the right person will i have anything added on?
 

WesternLancer

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Yes which ill do tomorrow when i call marston recovery again as i wasnt given a incident date, now if i report this to police that someone else is using my name with a fake address and it gets proven that i was the wrong person will i be acquitted of everything? and if its proven that i was the right person will i have anything added on?
I am not sure if the police will be very interested.

And it may not be easy for you to proove it wasn’t you.

And I don’t think you would get acquitted without having to take your case through some sort of appeal court. Which might not be a cheap process.

As you say you are a student maybe those are questions you could ask your student union advice centre to give you some guidance about.
 

AlterEgo

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Im sorry I dont remember my train journeys from over a year ago as it can be anytime during 2023 or 2022 or before that even. I know that the case started in court in september 2023 and not been given a incident date, I dont think im the person
This one's quite simple. Were you stopped and had your details taken? I would very much remember that happening if it were me.

and if its proven that i was the right person will i have anything added on?
If you tell the police it was someone else, in order to escape a criminal conviction, and it turns out it was you all along, what do you think will happen?

Why are you worried it would turn out to be you after all?
.
 
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This one's quite simple. Were you stopped and had your details taken? I would very much remember that happening if it were me.


If you tell the police it was someone else, in order to escape a criminal conviction, and it turns out it was you all along, what do you think will happen?

Why are you worried it would turn out to be you after all?
.
I’ve been stopped once but that was recent and I had to only pay for the fare not a penalty

and im only worried because incase i have made an honest mistake where i’ve either unintentionally given wrong details by mistake and it ends up being my fault

This one's quite simple. Were you stopped and had your details taken? I would very much remember that happening if it were me.


If you tell the police it was someone else, in order to escape a criminal conviction, and it turns out it was you all along, what do you think will happen?

Why are you worried it would turn out to be you after all?
.
and I dont know what would happen hence why I’m asking
 

Puffing Devil

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The 21 day deadline may be extended at the discretion of the court. Extenuating circumstances may include:
  • Aggressive tactics employed by the bailiffs to secure payment
  • Genuine ignorance of the options available to reset the conviction
 

WesternLancer

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I seem to recall in previous cases seen here where people have been victims of others giving their names and addresses in order to avoid prosecution themselves, the railway company asks the person to send a copy of some photo ID so that they can compare it with the description taken of the person questioned or the body cam footage taken when the person with wrong ticket was questioned.
 

AlterEgo

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and im only worried because incase i have made an honest mistake where i’ve either unintentionally given wrong details by mistake and it ends up being my fault
That would only happen if you were stopped and asked to give your details. Were you or were you not stopped in March 2023 and asked to give your details for a ticketing matter?

I know for example, that I was not stopped in March 2023 because of a ticket matter where I had to give my name and address. I would remember that if it happened. So would you, surely?
 
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I seem to recall in previous cases seen here where people have been victims of others giving their names and addresses in order to avoid prosecution themselves, the railway company asks the person to send a copy of some photo ID so that they can compare it with the description taken if the person questioned or the body cam footage taken when the person with wrong ticket was questioned.
Okay thank you for that information however my problem is that im assuming my government name was given but a different address was given that ive never lived at so im trying to understand what this could be from

That would only happen if you were stopped and asked to give your details. Were you or were you not stopped in March 2023 and asked to give your details for a ticketing matter?

I know for example, that I was not stopped in March 2023 because of a ticket matter where I had to give my name and address. I would remember that if it happened. So would you, surely?
Unfortunately we’re not all the same I travel daily across england and i go through alot of journeys daily/weekly so it would be hard for me to recall the journey i was stopped in during march however what i do know is that the incident is for the journey i took but in the opposite direction which doesnt match up with mine
 

WesternLancer

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Okay thank you for that information however my problem is that im assuming my government name was given but a different address was given that ive never lived at so im trying to understand what this could be from


Unfortunately we’re not all the same I travel daily across england and i go through alot of journeys daily/weekly so it would be hard for me to recall the journey i was stopped in during march however what i do know is that the incident is for the journey i took but in the opposite direction which doesnt match up with mine
Well your face would presumably not match the face on the body cam film if it was not you would it.
 
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No but they had it! And they will have a description of the offender too.
How would they know that I, am the offender if the details given were of an address ive never lived at? so how would they match a description to me?

They are not going to give it to you are they. It’s evidence they keep to help ensure they can bring effective prosecutions against fare evaders if required.
Of course but if i was caught on body cam why would the address given be an address i dont live at? and if it was me why would i give my own name and a fake address, Im sure that it is not me
 

Haywain

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How would they know that I, am the offender if the details given were of an address ive never lived at?
Because nobody has ever given a false address?
so how would they match a description to me?
They make notes of what the person they are talking to looks like, which can later be compared with a photograph.

To be honest, you are coming across as someone trying out excuses rather than someone who has been wrongly accused. If you want help you could try giving straight answers to the questions being asked of you.
 

WesternLancer

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How would they know that I, am the offender if the details given were of an address ive never lived at? so how would they match a description to me?


Of course but if i was caught on body cam why would the address given be an address i dont live at? and if it was me why would i give my own name and a fake address, Im sure that it is not me
Do you know the address they had for you? Did the debt recovery firm tell you that? (They presumably found you at another address).

If you know the address was it one you have ever lived at? Or similar to where you have ever lived? Especially around that date do the alleged offence.
 

MotCO

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I'm slightly confused.

1. You appear to have two charges against you, but which you were not aware of because both were not sent to your address. If you were stopped by an inspector, would you not have given the correct address?

2. You paid the penalty for the first occasion, so presumably you agree that you had been caught without a correct ticket. Is that correct? If I could not remember being stopped by an inspector, I would not pay over £800 on a whim.
 

AlterEgo

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How would they know that I, am the offender if the details given were of an address ive never lived at? so how would they match a description to me?


Of course but if i was caught on body cam why would the address given be an address i dont live at? and if it was me why would i give my own name and a fake address, Im sure that it is not me
I've got to say it does sound like you are making this hard work. People can generally remember if they get stopped and have their details taken. As for the questions like "well what if I say it's not me and it turns out it is me, what are the consequences?"

If it was you, there are more serious consequences involved if you lie or try to wheedle out of this, because you are now going to have to swear something on oath to a court about your own criminal conviction.

I'm out.
 
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Because nobody has ever given a false address?

They make notes of what the person they are talking to looks like, which can later be compared with a photograph.

To be honest, you are coming across as someone trying out excuses rather than someone who has been wrongly accused. If you want help you could try giving straight answers to the questions being asked of you.

Do you know the address they had for you? Did the debt recovery firm tell you that? (They presumably found you at another address).

If you know the address was it one you have ever lived at? Or similar to where you have ever lived? Especially around that date do the alleged offence.
Ive literally said this from the start the address they have for me is a address ive never lived at it was only in the same city but not my actual address ever

I'm slightly confused.

1. You appear to have two charges against you, but which you were not aware of because both were not sent to your address. If you were stopped by an inspector, would you not have given the correct address?

2. You paid the penalty for the first occasion, so presumably you agree that you had been caught without a correct ticket. Is that correct? If I could not remember being stopped by an inspector, I would not pay over £800 on a whim.
1. and thats what im saying it wasnt me other id give the right details or if i was gonna give fake ones i wouldnt include my full name
2. i paid the first one out of being pressured by the debt agency and that fact i genuinely didnt know i could appeal through a SD

I've got to say it does sound like you are making this hard work. People can generally remember if they get stopped and have their details taken. As for the questions like "well what if I say it's not me and it turns out it is me, what are the consequences?"

If it was you, there are more serious consequences involved if you lie or try to wheedle out of this, because you are now going to have to swear something on oath to a court about your own criminal conviction.

I'm out.
Okay thank you
 

pedr

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This is very confusing.

The default position is that the court system believes that you have committed two offences, failed to respond to correspondence about them including documents telling you about the allegation of criminal offences, and so the courts have convicted you of these, and issued fines which you then have failed to pay.

If the first you heard of the first case was the contact from enforcement agents seeking the payment of the fines, you should have taken advice at that point, urgently, and used the process to declare that you had not heard about the proceedings. This is called a “statutory declaration” and should be made within 21 days of becoming aware of the proceedings. Since you did not do that for the first case, and paid the outstanding fine and charges, it would be difficult to reverse this. A court may accept an out of time statutory declaration but it might be sensible to pay for a solicitor to assist with that if it is something you want to pursue. You would need to show significant reasons explaining why it is important and in the interests of justice to undo the conviction very late.

If you have only just heard of the second case then the statutory declaration process is open to you. This is nothing to do with the debt collectors though you may need information they have but haven’t given to you, including the name/address of the court which convicted you and the offence charged. You make the declaration in a semi-formal process before a court or a solicitor, where you and an official witness sign a form. Doing that - and pleading not guilty if you need to enter a plea at that point - would enable you to communicate with the prosecutor (probably a train company) to try to convince them either that this is a case of mistaken identity or that it would be more appropriate to end the criminal case in exchange for repayment of fares avoided and a fee. Pursuing the mistaken identity point is likely to require you to at the very least raise strong suspicion that you weren’t the person travelling. This will require clearer presentation of the reasons you are sure it wasn’t you than there have been in this thread. Assertions that you wouldn’t give your name and a false address are not worth anything; it’s entirely possible for someone to have a form of proof of name but no proof of address, for instance, so a railway agent would write down the name on a bank card or similar, but accept the (false) address given. Making as good a diary as you can of what journeys you made each day for the last few years would be a good start, so when you find out the date of the incident, you can account for what you did that day. If you can afford professional legal advice, and consider that worth paying to remove a criminal conviction, that may be sensible.

The conviction for the first offence should be spent under the terms of the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act and will possibly not show on DBS checks but should be declared if an employer or other organisation is not covered by the Act.
 

WesternLancer

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Ive literally said this from the start the address they have for me is a address ive never lived at it was only in the same city but not my actual address ever
Thanks for clarifying and apols for not understanding this before.

Hopefully you have now enough information from here on both the SD process and how the railway might check ID type things if you dispute that it is you who was stopped and questioned, for you to be able to progress your case.

As mentioned before if you are a student you may also be able to get help from your student advice centre at university, or they may have an arrangement with a local solicitors that you can access for advice at free or reduced rate costs if you needed that help. It may be worth asking your Student Union or University / college about that.
 
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Thanks for clarifying and apols for not understanding this before.

Hopefully you have now enough information from here on both the SD process and how the railway might check ID type things if you dispute that it is you who was stopped and questioned, for you to be able to progress your case.

As mentioned before if you are a student you may also be able to get help from your student advice centre at university, or they may have an arrangement with a local solicitors that you can access for advice at free or reduced rate costs if you needed that help. It may be worth asking your Student Union or University / college about that.
Hi so i just found out that I had given wrong details and that it was a journey i took with a valid ticket however the ticket it was valid for the train had departed earlier by a few mins before i got to the platform and i took the next train to my destination and i mustve been stopped and gave wrong details for sake of saving money as a struggling student, can i still appeal for a SD and try get the fine down or do i have to pay full amount ?
 

Fawkes Cat

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i mustve been stopped and gave wrong details for sake of saving money
Others may be along later with other advice, but I would expect a court to see this as you putting yourself in the wrong: you didn't find out about the prosecution because you gave false details. So if this is the case where your SD is late, then the court is unlikely to extend sympathy, and for any SD case you are liable to be found guilty in that using a train that the ticket isn't valid for is an offence.

So my view must be that the best thing to do is to pay up as quickly as possible before the amount you have to pay increases any more.
 

John R

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Not that it helps the OP, but for those of us that give advice, this is a good example of how the court authorities are pretty effective at catching up with someone, even if they have given wrong details.
 
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Not that it helps the OP, but for those of us that give advice, this is a good example of how the court authorities are pretty effective at catching up with someone, even if they have given wrong details.
Yes i think i just gave wrong address with the right name unfortunately i think ill be punished for this

Others may be along later with other advice, but I would expect a court to see this as you putting yourself in the wrong: you didn't find out about the prosecution because you gave false details. So if this is the case where your SD is late, then the court is unlikely to extend sympathy, and for any SD case you are liable to be found guilty in that using a train that the ticket isn't valid for is an offence.

So my view must be that the best thing to do is to pay up as quickly as possible before the amount you have to pay increases any more.
Understood so since i found out about this fine yesterday is there a point in doing a SD to try get a reduced fine while pleading guilty? or should i just try pay it off asap
 

AlterEgo

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Hi so i just found out that I had given wrong details and that it was a journey i took with a valid ticket however the ticket it was valid for the train had departed earlier by a few mins before i got to the platform and i took the next train to my destination and i mustve been stopped and gave wrong details for sake of saving money as a struggling student
What a terrific surprise to find out that, after some soul-searching about the consequences of lying to the police and saying someone else did it, you now find out it was you, and you did after all tell lies and gave the wrong address.

You can try a Statutory Declaration, but it has been over 21 days since you found out about the proceedings, and you went out of your way to ensure that you could not find out about the proceedings in the first place, by giving a false address. This is also a separate offence anyway. As it is, your current conviction will be spent after one year from the date of conviction, and resetting that clock is unlikely to be in your interests.
 
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What a terrific surprise to find out that, after some soul-searching about the consequences of lying to the police and saying someone else did it, you now find out it was you, and you did after all tell lies and gave the wrong address.

You can try a Statutory Declaration, but it has been over 21 days since you found out about the proceedings, and you went out of your way to ensure that you could not find out about the proceedings in the first place, by giving a false address. This is also a separate offence anyway. As it is, your current conviction will be spent after one year from the date of conviction, and resetting that clock is unlikely to be in your interests.
It hasnt been over 21 days, i found out yesterday about this case. As for the conviction if I pay it off does that not speed up the « spent » process and make it spent immediately or do I still serve the full year with the conviction?
 

John R

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It hasnt been over 21 days, i found out yesterday about this case. As for the conviction if I pay it off does that not speed up the « spent » process and make it spent immediately or do I still serve the full year with the conviction?
"Paying it off" is paying the fine that should have been paid on conviction. It doesn't reduce in any way the period before the conviction is spent.
 
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