• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

EMR Overcrowding

Status
Not open for further replies.

Foxcover

Member
Joined
14 Nov 2015
Messages
156
An incredible 50 Trainline reports of overcrowding on one of the Norwich to Liverpool EMRs this morning; plus a four-car mid-morning EMR Liverpool service being split down to two-car at Sheffield; and reports on EMRs twitter feed of police being needed to deal with overcrowding ’disorder’ when Norwich trains being split at Nottingham. Looks like that is still a very unhappy route
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Horizon22

Established Member
Associate Staff
Jobs & Careers
Joined
8 Sep 2019
Messages
7,604
Location
London
An incredible 50 Trainline reports of overcrowding on one of the Norwich to Liverpool EMRs this morning; plus a four-car mid-morning EMR Liverpool service being split down to two-car at Sheffield; and reports on EMRs twitter feed of police being needed to deal with overcrowding ’disorder’ when Norwich trains being split at Nottingham. Looks like that is still a very unhappy route

It's been a busy Saturday morning - other TOCs have also reported overcrowding on booked length services.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

YorkshireBear

Established Member
Joined
23 Jul 2010
Messages
8,699
Saturday's now need more capacity than weekdays, it's been that way for a while and is likely to continue for a good while yet.
 

AndyMike

Member
Joined
12 Oct 2020
Messages
53
Location
Sheffield
I use the Norwich-Liverpool services regularly - though not along the whole route - and they seem busier than ever on weekdays too.

EMR’s customer service on this route really is dreadful; I experienced an instance the other week of the on-train PA system not working, meaning there was no audible announcement that what was meant to be a direct service was splitting at Nottingham. This was despite the fact that I’d already told the train manager of the problem. Cue a mad dash to the Nottingham-Norwich service. This is basic stuff that EMR continues to get wrong, along with the lack of refreshment provision on many services on what is a very long route.

I still feel that the plan to permanently split the route at Nottingham is a huge mistake.
 

Killingworth

Established Member
Joined
30 May 2018
Messages
4,912
Location
Sheffield
Looking from Sheffield we're seeing a disastrous situation on the combined Manchester services. TPE are currently operating 6 car trains 2 hourly instead of hourly and some of them are reduced to 3.

EMR have been 2 as often as 4 today so they're not in any position to pick up the slack. It's inevitable that they'll be very crowded.

The knock on is that the Northern 3 car stopping service, taking an extra 25 minutes, is also liable to be rammed full. So full that some intending passengers feel unwilling to board. On Saturday mornings you will be very lucky to get a seat going west from Dore, assuming you can even get on Last month some had 2 hours to wait to get aboard the third train that stopped.
 
Last edited:

43055

Established Member
Joined
8 Mar 2018
Messages
2,912
An incredible 50 Trainline reports of overcrowding on one of the Norwich to Liverpool EMRs this morning; plus a four-car mid-morning EMR Liverpool service being split down to two-car at Sheffield; and reports on EMRs twitter feed of police being needed to deal with overcrowding ’disorder’ when Norwich trains being split at Nottingham. Looks like that is still a very unhappy route
Just been looking at the twitter comments myself. I gather this maybe down to strengthening on the Newark - Crewe's due to racing at Uttoxeter and Stoke playing Notts Forest meaning there is a 4 car 156, 5 car 170 and a 6 car 156+158+158 special on the route today. Although this didn't stop the overcrowding as I went to catch the 1102 from Tutbury to Stoke. 156497 arrived full and standing and left with most of us still on the platform with a 2 hour gap until the next train. Meanwhile the 5 car 170 going the other way had spare seats so the 6 car special behind it was probably quite empty as well!
 

aoa123

Member
Joined
6 May 2021
Messages
13
Location
UK
Disappointing yes, surprising no. This route and in particular the stop at Sheffield and passenger take up there has been a nightmare for far too long.

I travel this service often, generally Nottingham to Sheffield / Chinley and occasionally to Manchester and there is no sign at all of anything improving. Another classic for this nonsense is Leeds - Nottingham which whenever I have been on it recently is a horrendously overcrowded 2 cars, that is if it is not cancelled - admittedly not an EMR service but there does seem to be something about Sheffield and EMR / Northern services that creates a bit of a bit of a bottleneck for these types of problems.

As a general comment about my experiences of EMR in the last few months, it has been poor. From trains that start the journey filthy and bins overflowing, no catering when the service is planned to be ran with catering, no announcements, cancellations, delays, staff shortages because covid, seat reservations "not working", short forms and overcrowding, overcrowding, overcrowding. I can maybe forgive some of this but most of it seems to be systemic and some of it is just really basic stuff going wrong. My feeling is that they have so many issues that are deemed to be insurmountable that they have just stopped caring.
 

markymark2000

On Moderation
Joined
11 May 2015
Messages
3,580
Location
Western Part of the UK
If EMR are having that many issues, why don't they do like TFW did, have a permeant standby Rail Rep at a key point where the overcrowding happens. TFW did this for Prestatyn and the bus would sit there each day. It was then there, ready to go when there was overcrowding. It may not be amazing for those on the bus who may miss connections but that's the same as someone waiting for the next train who is also going to miss a connection but the same happens waiting for the next train. Least passengers have half a chance of getting to their end destination instead of the next train then turning up and also being full. Also if you are going to the same place as the bus or the bus destination has more onwards links, you may be delayed by 30 minutes rather than an hour.
 

JonathanH

Veteran Member
Joined
29 May 2011
Messages
18,911
EMR are having that many issues, why don't they do like TFW did, have a permeant standby Rail Rep at a key point where the overcrowding happens. TFW did this for Prestatyn and the bus would sit there each day.
Cost? Who is paying? Even with overcrowding, I would imagine that EMR aren't covering their costs on the whole service.
 

markymark2000

On Moderation
Joined
11 May 2015
Messages
3,580
Location
Western Part of the UK
Cost? Who is paying? Even with overcrowding, I would imagine that EMR aren't covering their costs on the whole service.
The operator. Same as TFW cover the cost because the bus often got used and the cost of the bus was probably not much more than the cost of dealing with the angry passengers and delay repay etc.
 

JonathanH

Veteran Member
Joined
29 May 2011
Messages
18,911
The operator. Same as TFW cover the cost because the bus often got used and the cost of the bus was probably not much more than the cost of dealing with the angry passengers and delay repay etc.
Operator = the taxpayer. I imagine the DfT aren't able to cover the cost because the Treasury is seeking to reduce the considerable amount it is paying to keep the railway going.

That said, I do note that considerable replacement bus capacity is often provided for engineering work that isn't utilised which may be better spent on occasions like this, but suspect the budgeting is different.
 
Last edited:

Signal_Box

Member
Joined
25 Dec 2021
Messages
657
Location
UK
Such a long service line like Liverpool to Norwich are extremely vulnerable to delay enroute.

You either add in huge periods of recovery time whdih increases overall journey time, or break it into smaller chunks over key sections.

Add in it this particular route being a proper cross country intercity route, which has and is being treated like a regional one adds to the problem.

Ideally you need a fixed formation five car (at least), both going half way meeting at a location in the middle where a cross platform transfer is practicable.

EMR are under huge pressure to reduce costs across the board, units with faults are long standing. There a certain faults like a PA defect are listed under defects that a unit can not leave a depot with the fault outstanding.

So say 158999 has a PA fault on Monday, it’ll often be allocated a diagram where if stays away from Hometown Depot for as long as possible to enable the unit to remain in traffic. As soon as the unit goes onto depot the fault has to be fixed before it can leave again.
 

robbeech

Established Member
Joined
11 Nov 2015
Messages
4,678
There a certain faults like a PA defect are listed under defects that a unit can not leave a depot with the fault outstanding.
I’m not aware of these types of things ever being enforced. The PA on most 15* units is not fit for purpose and not functioning to a standard I would consider acceptable to send out yet they remain the same for year after year. I used to get the first train of the day regularly in EMT days (first after an ECS from the depot) and it was 50/50 whether it would function acceptably.
I understand the point you’re making though.
 

rg177

Established Member
Associate Staff
International Transport
Joined
22 Dec 2013
Messages
3,731
Location
Newcastle-upon-Tyne
This afternoon was absolutely disastrous on the Hope Valley.

The 1618 from Manchester to Cleethorpes was sat in the platform as a three car with gaggles of folk stood by the doors until they realised they didn't have anybody to run it and it was cancelled at 1625.

Sensing chaos, I headed for Oxford Road to pick up the EMR service which was predictably a two-car.

People were left behind at Piccadilly and absolutely nobody at Stockport had a hope of getting on.

Abysmal.
 

BJames

Established Member
Joined
27 Jan 2018
Messages
1,365
I’m not aware of these types of things ever being enforced. The PA on most 15* units is not fit for purpose and not functioning to a standard I would consider acceptable to send out yet they remain the same for year after year. I used to get the first train of the day regularly in EMT days (first after an ECS from the depot) and it was 50/50 whether it would function acceptably.
I understand the point you’re making though.
I would count a large proportion of Meridians here too - kept breaking up today (and TM passed through really quickly, once, on the whole journey, so didn't really have a chance to let her know. Will drop EMR a line but I somehow doubt it will be fixed, it's been a problem on my journeys/carriages for a while.
 

Signal_Box

Member
Joined
25 Dec 2021
Messages
657
Location
UK
I’m not aware of these types of things ever being enforced. The PA on most 15* units is not fit for purpose and not functioning to a standard I would consider acceptable to send out yet they remain the same for year after year. I used to get the first train of the day regularly in EMT days (first after an ECS from the depot) and it was 50/50 whether it would function acceptably.
I understand the point you’re making though.

The PA is one of the no entry into service faults, but there are others obviously. The depot dodge is comment round here, as we’ve very old stock.

I would count a large proportion of Meridians here too - kept breaking up today (and TM passed through really quickly, once, on the whole journey, so didn't really have a chance to let her know. Will drop EMR a line but I somehow doubt it will be fixed, it's been a problem on my journeys/carriages for a while.
With driver only preps now it’s extremely difficult to trace a PA fault, once it’s in service it really takes a passenger to tell the guard as they’ll probably not realise either. But then it takes a) a keen guard to report it and b) control to be bothered.

Both in short supply.
 

robbeech

Established Member
Joined
11 Nov 2015
Messages
4,678
The PA is one of the no entry into service faults, but there are others obviously. The depot dodge is comment round here, as we’ve very old stock.
My point is that they DO send them out into service from the depot with broken PA. I don’t know who could stop them really, it’s not as if there’s an independent PA test person going around the country trying to check these things.
 

Signal_Box

Member
Joined
25 Dec 2021
Messages
657
Location
UK
My point is that they DO send them out into service from the depot with broken PA. I don’t know who could stop them really, it’s not as if there’s an independent PA test person going around the country trying to check these things.
A driver should flag and refuse to take a faulty unit off shed, whether they’d know is another thing.
 

Killingworth

Established Member
Joined
30 May 2018
Messages
4,912
Location
Sheffield
This afternoon was absolutely disastrous on the Hope Valley.

The 1618 from Manchester to Cleethorpes was sat in the platform as a three car with gaggles of folk stood by the doors until they realised they didn't have anybody to run it and it was cancelled at 1625.

Sensing chaos, I headed for Oxford Road to pick up the EMR service which was predictably a two-car.

People were left behind at Piccadilly and absolutely nobody at Stockport had a hope of getting on.

Abysmal.
We can't blame EMR for TPE's problems. They've only just resolved their industrial dispute that threw major pressure onto TPE. (5B84 seems to have got away at 16.28 without passengers as ECS.)

We can ask why EMR can't provide 4 car trains when they know TPE are already timetabled to run 2 hourly. Oxford Road was a good move. Others will have gone for Northern's 3 car stopper which will have struggled to cope.

What's the point of attracting passengers away from their cars if we can't provide trains with space to carry them in comfort?
 

Signal_Box

Member
Joined
25 Dec 2021
Messages
657
Location
UK
Left hand can’t / won’t / not allowed to talk to the right hand.

Often the left hand can’t / won’t / isn’t allowed to talk to itself let alone the right hand !
 

Mugby

Established Member
Joined
25 Nov 2012
Messages
1,931
Location
Derby
I think I can shed some light on Saturday's problems, there was a big event on at Uttoxeter Racecourse; Winter Afternoon Racing, sponsored by Virgin Bet.
It generated a huge amount of extra usage and EMR strengthened certain services as follows:

0908 Crewe - Newark, 2 x 156.
0848 Derby - Crewe, 5-car 170, 2+3.
1104 Stoke - Nottingham, extra service, 6 cars, 156 + 2 158s.

All the extra units must have been robbed from other duties (although previously 222s have been used) and it would account for some Liverpool services being only 2 cars.
I travelled on the 1048 from Derby to Crewe which hadn't been strengthened and the number of people onboard was unbelievable, there were even people in the rear cab. Passengers were left behind at Derby and Tutbury and lots of free rides were had because it was a physical impossibility to move through the train.
I returned on the 1734 from Stoke to Derby and the same thing happened again, just a single 156 which became crush loaded at Uttoxeter.

I suppose you could grudgingly say EMR made an attempt to cope with the vast amount of people travelling to Uttoxeter Races but it still wasn't enough, the two trains which I travelled on were obviously going to be the busiest of the day but they were single 156s.
A lot of extra revenue may have been earned on Saturday but a lot was certainly lost too!
 

AndyMike

Member
Joined
12 Oct 2020
Messages
53
Location
Sheffield
I would count a large proportion of Meridians here too - kept breaking up today (and TM passed through really quickly, once, on the whole journey, so didn't really have a chance to let her know. Will drop EMR a line but I somehow doubt it will be fixed, it's been a problem on my journeys/carriages for a while.
Yes, it has. I’ve raised it several times with EMT/EMR and never had a satisfactory response. I would say it’s an issue on more than half my (reasonably frequent) EMR journeys these days.

What's the point of attracting passengers away from their cars if we can't provide trains with space to carry them in comfort?
Precisely. I’m not sure the current government cares, hence the aforementioned extent of the financial constraints affecting operators and the general sense of malaise surrounding the ‘customer experience’ that ensues. But it badly needs addressing, otherwise rail travel will, as someone else said in another thread on here, become a real ‘distress purchase’.
 
Last edited:

wobman

On Moderation
Joined
2 Jan 2011
Messages
1,233
A driver should flag and refuse to take a faulty unit off shed, whether they’d know is another thing.
But people are complaining about overcrowding on this thread and taking a unit out due to PA fault creates more overcrowding.

As a driver you can only hear the nearest speaker of the pa from the cab you test it in on 15x units as they don't have a tms. They 15x units used on the route are over 30yrs old now so things break.
 

Stampy

Member
Joined
21 Sep 2014
Messages
378
Location
Peterborough
I've been on a few EMR services between Manchester-Nottingham-Peterborough over the years and they ARE getting WORSE...

I've posted before on here about the "scrummage" at Nottingham when the 4-car unit separates into 2x 2-car units - despite NUMEROUS announcements on the train that "only the FRONT portion from Sheffield" will be carrying on past Nottingham, you still get people "barging" their way on to the (now) 2-car unit for a seat....

Many's a time, that I've traveled from Nottingham back to Peterborough and have STOOD for most (if not, ALL) of the journey..

I've traveled in the Manchester direction from Nottingham too, where they've "bolted" a 2-car unit onto the FRONT of our train, and then LOCKED this 2-car set out of use, as it's "only going to Sheffield" whilst everyone piles onto the now 2-car set to Manchester/Liverpool

I too (like a previous poster in this thread) now get on a Nottingham/Peterborough bound EMR train at Manchester Oxford Road as at least there you have a fair chance of getting ONTO the train - you don't stand a chance at Piccadilly!!!!

I dropped a friend off at Grantham station recently on a trip back from a football game, and saw a 2-car EMR set heading towards Peterborough/East Anglia with people literally staggering out for air on the platform as it was so JAM PACKED... o_O


I'm dreading the trip to and from Mansfield (via Nottingham) soon.... Think I might come back via Worksop and Retford!!!
 

robbeech

Established Member
Joined
11 Nov 2015
Messages
4,678
there were even people in the rear cab.
Interested to see what the EMR guards we have here think about that one.

I'm dreading the trip to and from Mansfield (via Nottingham) soon.... Think I might come back via Worksop and Retford
With half the service and sometimes short forms between Nottingham and Mansfield that’s not a bad idea although the connections at Retford at Worksop will be appalling.
 

LowLevel

Established Member
Joined
26 Oct 2013
Messages
7,619
But people are complaining about overcrowding on this thread and taking a unit out due to PA fault creates more overcrowding.

As a driver you can only hear the nearest speaker of the pa from the cab you test it in on 15x units as they don't have a tms. They 15x units used on the route are over 30yrs old now so things break.
They've not worked properly since TrainFX was installed (some were rubbish before that I'll allow). 5 plus years down the line it shows no sign of being reliably fixed especially when the units are running in multiple. Some are fine, others are not. This isn't a PA fault, it's an augmented system failing to work entirely.

The situation with units isn't good. Not helped though for example by football fans smashing them up as per Grimsby Town the other week, or last night's superb example where the guard went through their train to find it plastered from front to back with both solid and liquid human waste, now out of traffic for deep cleaning.
 

Killingworth

Established Member
Joined
30 May 2018
Messages
4,912
Location
Sheffield
EMR are just one TOC contributing to the current shambles. I've just been asked by email why it was unreasonable even trying to get aboard the 3 car Northern 19.14 from Sheffield last night. Hope Valley users are back to cars rather than facing this, their stopping service now hijacked by end to end captives penned tighter than cattle.

The previous train for Manchester had been Northern's 18.14. The 2 car EMR 18.44 had been cancelled at Sheffield - reason on RTT says someone hit by a train? The TPE 19.11 is currently cut from the timetable.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top