EMR refusing Scottish money

[Starmill]

I was refused in my offer to pay with a Danske Bank note onboard a ScotRail train once. The customer host even said to me after making my drink "that's not our money".

After about 10 minutes of waiting around the card machine did work so at least they got paid, but the crew were certainly displeased about it. I couldn't help but wonder how they'd have reacted if they'd been told that in England to a Clydesale Bank note, say.

I've never had Scottish notes from HSBC.

It's just a local thing. HSBC can issue banknotes they've taken in from customers, same as any other shop could, if they want to, but it obviously depends on where their supplier tops up the machine from. If the branch orders cash in for delivery through their secure courier it probably usually comes as Bank of England notes, or comes from an HSBC facility in England. Sometimes large firms or banks set Scottish and Northern Irish banknotes to one side and don't courier them around with the main cash.

 

[185143]

I was refused in my offer to pay with a Danske Bank note onboard a ScotRail train once. The customer host even said to me after making my drink "that's not our money".

After about 10 minutes of waiting around the card machine did work so at least they got paid, but the crew were certainly displeased about it. I couldn't help but wonder how they'd have reacted if they'd been told that in England to a Clydesale Bank note, say.

Part of me at that point would have been inclined to respond with similar awkwardness if the drink had been made.

They have the choice of either a) accept your Sterling bank note, b) give you the drink for free or c) waste it.

 

[totally]

Here in Blackpool Scottish and Northern Ireland notes are very commonly seen. Not only do places accept them, including Blackpool Transport, but we actually get given such notes in change, I had one on Monday! It comes down to familiarity though and thus we see it as no issue at all here. I am aware that in some parts of the country it is possible to pay using currency other than Sterling, again I assume for convenience, but it is rather surprising that a major company (EMR) refuses to accept Stirling notes. Clearly the fact that Scottish and N. Ireland notes are Stirling that should be the key determinant of acceptance.

 

[Gaelan]

Aren't Nationwide still a building society (not a bank)? Also, don't think their planned acquisition of Virgin Money/Clydesdale Bank has actually happened yet.

They are, but I don’t think the distinction is relevant here.

 

[redreni]

The hypothetical person being worried here is someone who is only able to pay in Scottish notes, with no other means of payment (and no means to draw cash), in Sheffield. An interesting variation on the usual RailUK Forums minority, but no less obscure! It’s something that will only be seen as an issue on here…

It's a hypothetical issue until it happens, at which point it's a potentially serious problem for the person affected. Still not a major issue in the grand scheme of things, I agree, but it's not a very good way to treat a customer, is it?

I appreciate the difficulty if they're accepting and trying to bank banknotes and having them rejected as forgeries. I also think there's some mitigation at Sheffield if it's only the ticket office, and not the TVMs, that is rejecting these banknotes because it is an ungated station where the ticket office closes in the evenings anyway, so anyone who had Scottish banknotes could try the TVMs and, if unsuccessful, could still travel and then pay at the first opportunity.

As to whether it's such an obscure hypothetical that nobody outside this forum would take it seriously, I would just observe:

• if an organisation that usually accepts cash uniformly everywhere suddenly starts arbitrarily refusing to accept certain banknotes in certain places, then it is completely foreseeable that people will turn up expecting to be able to pay with cash and will be refused;
• I don't find it particularly persuasive that this is okay because Sheffield is nowhere near Scotland - people and banknotes do travel and Scottish banknotes do circulate in England and Wales; and
• I don't think we can conclude with any real confidence that this is only a hypothetical issue, still less that it is a non-issue, just because no issues have so far been reported on this forum. We don't know if it is an actual issue or not.

Personally I hope EMR will find a better way of dealing with the problem of forged notes asap. I don't think it's outrageous but I don't think it's a non-issue either.

 

[Somewhere]

It wouldn’t matter if there was a law to suggest they must be accepted. If the railways decides it doesn’t want to then that’s that. Nothing surprises me from Sheffield ticket office.
I was at Derby the other day and didn’t see a similar sign although this could be more recent.

The railway as a whole would have to agree. Not individual organisations within the railway

 

[Deerfold]

You may be mistaken. HSBC UK Bank plc is an English bank. Its immediate and ultimate holding company is HSBC Holdings plc, which is also an English company.

If we're being technical they're each an English and Welsh company.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Scottish Bank Notes are listed on Internal Knowledge Base under Must Be Accepted.

 

[reb0118]

It would have been much simpler if a "Bank of Great Britain" had been formed in 1707 and one set of notes used throughout, rather than allowing pre unification arrangements to continue.

And that is exactly what was formed. The Bank of England is the United Kingdom central bank. In theory both currencies were merged to form one new currency (in practice the English system was used as the new currency).

Therefore there is no such thing as English or Scottish currency, nor English or Scottish banknotes. All banknotes issued by United Kingdom banks are UK sterling - denominated as GBP (not UKP for some reason).

Clearly the fact that Scottish and N. Ireland notes are Stirling that should be the key determinant of acceptance.

Banknotes issued by Northern Irish banks are not Stirling - but they might be Strabane.

 

[TUC]

I do wonder how those saying 'so what? Just get English notes' would react if they found thesecwere being refused in Scotland?

As someone who is married to a Scot, I do know how much irritation it causes when businesses in England don't accept Scottish bank notes. It suggests an ignorance about one's own country, together with not being sensible in a business-sense by annoying people who want to spend their money with you.

 

[Falcon1200]

It suggests an ignorance about one's own country, together with not being sensible in a business-sense by annoying people who want to spend their money with you.

As I mentioned earlier though, that ignorance is understandable given that not only are Scottish notes rarely seen in many places, but there are also three kinds of them, not one as per Bank of England currency!

 

[Bill57p9]

As I mentioned earlier though, that ignorance is understandable given that not only are Scottish notes rarely seen in many places, but there are also three kinds of them, not one as per Bank of England currency!

And IMHO this is at the heart of the issue: Because in general Scottish notes will be far less familiar in most of England and Wales, it is far easier to pass forged Scottish or Irish notes off there than it would be in Scotland, or Bank of England notes anywhere. Hence the Scottish notes are targeted.

As a long term Scottish resident who travels frequently to England, I have found acceptance of Scottish bank notes has increased over the years. When challenged though, I do appreciate why people look at them with scepticism.

 

[TUC]

As I mentioned earlier though, that ignorance is understandable given that not only are Scottish notes rarely seen in many places, but there are also three kinds of them, not one as per Bank of England currency!

That ignorance does seem to increase the further South one goes. It is particularly irritating in London where one ends up thinking ' you see people from all around the world every day, and certainly probably regularly see Euros, but you don't know about the bank notes of the UK'.

 

[stadler]

However, the railway does accept notes (but not coins) from Guernsey, Jersey and the Isle of Man.

But the reality is the opposite and such coins can be used with no issue. In fact you are far more likely to have an issue with banknotes being accepted on the railway (even though they are officially supposed to). Coins from these places will almost always be accepted with zero question (even though the railway officially does not accept them). Unlike their banknotes you can easily use coins from, Jersey, Guernsey, Isle Of Man, Gibraltar, in any part of the UK without any issue. Anyone in England will accept these as normal without question. I think this is because the coins look so similar to ours. Also we have hundreds and hundreds of different versions of all of our coins so even if someone looked at it more carefully they almost always just assume that it is one of the hundreds of special editions that the Royal Mint have issued over the years. So you will never face any issue spending these coins and in fact they even appear in your change from time to time.

 

[43066]

It's a hypothetical issue until it happens, at which point it's a potentially serious problem for the person affected. Still not a major issue in the grand scheme of things, I agree, but it's not a very good way to treat a customer, is it?

There is an obsession on this forum with finding obscure examples of people being slightly inconvenienced and concluding that, because that possibility exists, the arrangements are unfit for purpose.

In this case hardly anybody is even going to notice! Most would simply note the (valid) reason for the non acceptance, and use an alternative payment method, without giving it a second thought.

Personally I hope EMR will find a better way of dealing with the problem of forged notes asap.

Ideally they’d stop accepting cash altogether! Perhaps that something GBR can drive through.

That ignorance does seem to increase the further South one goes. It is particularly irritating in London where one ends up thinking ' you see people from all around the world every day, and certainly probably regularly see Euros, but you don't know about the bank notes of the UK'.

You regularly survey people in London to ascertain their knowledge of obscure currency, do you?!

I expect most people in London (myself included) haven’t seen a note of any currency for months. I went to France in Jan and didn’t see a single Euro note there either, because I now pay for everything using Apple Pay.

 

[Vespa]

As long as the scottish bank notes have "Sterling" written on them Scottish notes are valid, each of the three issuing banks have to keep a stock of English pounds to match the issue of their own bank notes to prevent over printing which would destabilise the economy.

I'm not sure on Northern Ireland notes as I'm not familiar with them, I've not been to Northern Ireland since shortly after the ceasefire, I think I'm due a return visit to see how much has changed.

 

[stadler]

This has reminded me that I still have a £10 note that was issued in Gibraltar, from a trip there I did last year. I might try using that somewhere just to see what reaction I get!

LNER claim to accept Gibraltar banknotes on their internal document "acceptable forms of payment manual" which is used for ticket office staff.



So you could try an LNER ticket office if you want to get rid of it. Although who knows what will happen in reality. They probably never see them.

 

[TUC]

You regularly survey people in London to ascertain their knowledge of obscure currency, do you?!

.

You referring to Scottish bank notes used by millions of people in the UK as an 'obscure currency' tells us all we need to know.

 

[stadler]

Scottish Bank Notes are listed on Internal Knowledge Base under Must Be Accepted.

They are listed on the Internal Knowledgebase as "May Be Accepted" rather than "Must Be Accepted" which is not quite the same meaning.



So this implies that TOCs are not required to accept them so presumably EMR are allowed to do this.

 

[redreni]

There is an obsession on this forum with finding obscure examples of people being slightly inconvenienced and concluding that, because that possibility exists, the arrangements are unfit for purpose.

In this case hardly anybody is even going to notice! Most would simply note the (valid) reason for the non acceptance, and use an alternative payment method, without giving it a second thought.

As I say, the foreseeable issue that I believe ought to be rectified is that somebody has no other form of payment.

Even then, as I say, I would hope a TVM or failing that, on-board staff would collect the fare and the person would not be stranded since Sheffield is ungated, so I'm not going to pretend this is an issue that might actually leave somebody stranded, but it may leave them with a penalty fare if on-board staff don't accept that a passenger was unable to buy a ticket before boarding at Sheffield, which is of course a major station with a dozen or more TVMs.

I don't think the issue should be exaggerated or blown out of proportion (though it's not as if it would be a particularly difficult issue to resolve) but I'm afraid it can't just be dismissed either. If I were in the business of accusing other forum users (even if only collectively as opposed to individually) of harbouring obsessions, which I'm not, then the tendency of some posters to defend anything and everything done by the rail industry (even when, as in this case, it's in straightforward contravention of their own internal guidance and plainly contrary to a reasonable expectation passengers may have, namely that they will be able to pay using Sterling banknotes) could make a very easy target.

 

[Bletchleyite]

then the tendency of some posters to defend anything and everything done by the rail industry (even when, as in this case, it's in straightforward contravention of their own internal guidance and plainly contrary to a reasonable expectation passengers may have, namely that they will be able to pay using Sterling banknotes) could make a very easy target.

This is one of the biggest issues with the railway. Policy and related legislation is well defined and clear, but a fairly reasonable number of people at all levels (be they TOC policymakers or individual staff) seem to prefer doing it their own way, and nobody does anything about it. It's endemic. To be fair, it's endemic in a lot of large organisations, not just the railway, and is indicative of poor management.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Are we sure this isn't something just printed locally by someone who doesn't like Scottish notes? Is it displayed at all EMR stations ?

 

[reb0118]

As long as the scottish bank notes have "Sterling" written on them Scottish notes are valid, each of the three issuing banks have to keep a stock of English pounds to match the issue of their own bank notes to prevent over printing which would destabilise the economy.

I deal with the two points there is reverse. There are no such things as English pounds (not least because the Bank of England is not an English bank) so Scottish banks (in as much as banks such as RBS remain Scottish) can not hold them as security. What does happen is that all non Bank of England banknotes in circulation are backed with fixed assets held at, or approved by, the Bank of England. This includes special non circulated large value Bank of England currency notes - Giants & Titans, coin, assets in deposit accounts, and other such securities as deemed acceptable.

All UK issued banknotes are sterling. Bank of England notes do not state sterling on them yet banknotes issued by Scottish & Northern Irish banks do. Why?

Actually there is no requirement for any UK banknote to state sterling as they are ipso facto all sterling.

Why Scottish & Irish banks still do do is a historical quirk. Before the respective political & currency unions Scottish & Irish banks obviously issued their own currency which was not on par with English currency aka sterling. But, they also issued sterling banknotes for those of their customers venturing into England to conduct trade or business.

So a Scottish bank could issued two types of currency notes £SCOTS & £STERLING.

After the currency unions Scottish banks ceased issuing £SCOTS but continued to issued £STERLING - and do so to this day.

Remember, private banks issuing banknotes was not unusual in Great Britain and the United Kingdom but over time the Bank of England has taken over this role for England & Wales.

 

[Deerfold]

Are we sure this isn't something just printed locally by someone who doesn't like Scottish notes? Is it displayed at all EMR stations ?

It probably is. That's why it says Retail Supervisor at the bottom.

 

[Blindtraveler]

If I had my way every single outlet in the world would start refusing cash is dead and keeping it on life supporters we're currently doing is ludicrous as it just provides loopholes for tax dodges and complication for businesses of all kinds as we're seeing here

 

[redreni]

Are we sure this isn't something just printed locally by someone who doesn't like Scottish notes? Is it displayed at all EMR stations ?

I assume so, until and unless somebody reports encountering similar signs or having Scottish banknotes rejected elsewhere.

Does anybody happen to know if the TVMs at Sheffield (or EMR or Northern TVMs generally) accept Scottish banknotes? I know a lot of Northern TVMs don't accept cash at all but will issue promise to pay slips, but I'm not especially familiar with the Northern network so unsure if that's only at smaller stations or if it would also apply at a larger station like Sheffield)? Presumably it wouldn't be possible to obtain a promise to pay slip during ticket office opening hours or at stations where the TVMs accept cash?

I'm just trying to work out if it would be reasonably easy to arrive at Sheffield with Scottish banknotes and use them to buy a ticket at the TVM or from the guard on the train, without running the risk of being issued a penalty fare?

If I had my way every single outlet in the world would start refusing cash is dead and keeping it on life supporters we're currently doing is ludicrous as it just provides loopholes for tax dodges and complication for businesses of all kinds as we're seeing here

BBC - Cash payments rise for first time in 10 years.
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-66796263

Cash is not as popular as once it was, for sure, but it's not dead. Not even close. And that's despite a total lack of the kind of measures other countries are taking to protect the right to pay in cash, e.g. France where retailers cannot refuse cash.

I completely accept, of course, that British TOCs are not obligated by law to accept cash, but they should do so per their own internal guidance.

 

[Bikeman78]

In my opinion this reflects the 'we don't care' attitude that sadly has dominated business, rather than thinking 'OK this is what the customer has, so we need to find a way to accept it that works for both of us'. When I lived in Aberdeen, these issues were a pain and meant I had to go and specially collect batches of English notes from my bank branch before leaving home.

I used to do the opposite. Whenever I visited Scotland, I used to make sure I took some notes back to Wales. Great fun seeing the perplexed look on the face of the cashier in Tesco or Kwiksave.

Would you say the same if they refused to accept English £50 notes, due to many forgeries in circulation, as many businesses have done?

I have only ever held one £50 note in my life. Why are such an issue though? There are bigger denominations of Euros. Cash machines issue 100 Euro notes.

 

[Wallsendmag]

I assume so, until and unless somebody reports encountering similar signs or having Scottish banknotes rejected elsewhere.

Does anybody happen to know if the TVMs at Sheffield (or EMR or Northern TVMs generally) accept Scottish banknotes? I know a lot of Northern TVMs don't accept cash at all but will issue promise to pay slips, but I'm not especially familiar with the Northern network so unsure if that's only at smaller stations or if it would also apply at a larger station like Sheffield)? Presumably it wouldn't be possible to obtain a promise to pay slip during ticket office opening hours or at stations where the TVMs accept cash?

I'm just trying to work out if it would be reasonably easy to arrive at Sheffield with Scottish banknotes and use them to buy a ticket at the TVM or from the guard on the train, without running the risk of being issued a penalty fare?


BBC - Cash payments rise for first time in 10 years.
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-66796263

Cash is not as popular as once it was, for sure, but it's not dead. Not even close. And that's despite a total lack of the kind of measures other countries are taking to protect the right to pay in cash, e.g. France where retailers cannot refuse cash.

I completely accept, of course, that British TOCs are not obligated by law to accept cash, but they should do so per their own internal guidance.

I'm fairly sure they need to accept cash as part of their contract with DfT.

 

[kkong]

Does anybody happen to know if the TVMs at Sheffield (or EMR or Northern TVMs generally) accept Scottish banknotes?

TVMs and other payment terminals (such as supermarket self-checkouts) have sophisticated banknote readers which can detect whether banknotes are genuine or not.

Such readers should - if they are properly maintained - be regularly updated with the "signatures" of all valid banknotes.

It takes no extra effort on behalf of the maintainers to include the various Scottish and Northern Irish banknotes in the list.

In the UK, I would therefore expect all note-accepting TVMs to accept all UK banknotes.

The major supermarkets certainly seem to manage to do this.

 

[Wallsendmag]

LNER claim to accept Gibraltar banknotes on their internal document "acceptable forms of payment manual" which is used for ticket office staff.

View attachment 157086

So you could try an LNER ticket office if you want to get rid of it. Although who knows what will happen in reality. They probably never see them.

Actually thats what East Coast accepted according to the date