EMR to retain Liverpool to Nottingham

[bunnahabhain]

We've heard on the grapevine via some applicants to TPE that the Liverpool to Nottingham service will remain with EMR for the foreseeable now.

Further to your application for the role of Trainee Train Driver - Sheffield, reference XXXXXX, in light of the current COVID crisis we have just been informed that the Department for Transport have decided that the Liverpool to Nottingham route is to remain with the Train Operating Company who currently runs this line. It is with regret we have to unfortunately withdraw the vacancy of Trainee Train Driver. All planned assessment centres have now been cancelled to reflect this decision and we can only apologise for any inconvenience caused.

We understand that this will come as bitterly disappointing news but we would like to thank you for taking the time to complete the application, online tests and for your interest shown in TransPennine Express."

 

[yorksrob]

That's obviously a shame for the driver who applied (I hope he can apply to EMR !)

That said, I've always liked EMT/R on the route and could see no compelling reason to split it. As a passenger, it will be nice to keep the 158's for a bit. Good crowd movers (assuming we get some crowds back).

 

[bunnahabhain]

That's obviously a shame for the driver who applied (I hope he can apply to EMR !)

That said, I've always liked EMT/R on the route and could see no compelling reason to split it. As a passenger, it will be nice to keep the 158's for a bit. Good crowd movers (assuming we get some crowds back).

I suspect that's the issue, now that the Dft hold the purse strings is there any point in training up 30-40 new drivers when you have them already trained and competent at another depot?

 

[Ianno87]

I suspect that's the issue, now that the Dft hold the purse strings is there any point in training up 30-40 new drivers when you have them already trained and competent at another depot?

Depends whether EMR had planned to re-deploy some staff on other services radiating from Nottingham instead...so vacancies may appear there instead!

 

[WesternLancer]

I suspect that's the issue, now that the Dft hold the purse strings is there any point in training up 30-40 new drivers when you have them already trained and competent at another depot?

surely you are not suggesting that when asked to directly shoulder the cost of an unnecessary change that will ultimately make little difference in the great scheme of things, the DfT decided that this was not a good use of money....?

More seriously - won't there be rolling stock consequences for this - with suggestions that TPE DMUs might have taken over the Nottingham - Liverpool section if the route had switched to them? And EMR will now need to retain units to operate it of course.

 

[bunnahabhain]

surely you are not suggesting that when asked to directly shoulder the cost of an unnecessary change that will ultimately make little difference in the great scheme of things, the DfT decided that this was not a good use of money....?

More seriously - won't there be rolling stock consequences for this - with suggestions that TPE DMUs might have taken over the Nottingham - Liverpool section if the route had switched to them? And EMR will now need to retain units to operate it of course.

Yes, I spoke to a senior manager earlier and "We'll have to have another look at the fleet plan". I know when the bid for retaining it was put in to cost against TPE's bid that the idea was to use Class 222s (against 68+Mk5 sets). Either way, its much cheaper to train on traction than it is on the route, for drivers its about a 3 month process for the entire route and diversions.

 

[Ianno87]

Yes, I spoke to a senior manager earlier and "We'll have to have another look at the fleet plan". I know when the bid for retaining it was put in to cost against TPE's bid that the idea was to use Class 222s (against 68+Mk5 sets). Either way, its much cheaper to train on traction than it is on the route, for drivers its about a 3 month process for the entire route and diversions.

Presumably that just means keeping some 222s within the franchise rather than letting them go off-lease?

Will be interesting at Piccadilly 13/14...

 

[BrianW]

I guess it's got to be hard not to put the customer/ passenger/ taxpayer above a driver- sorry for all concerned,
For info- would not existing staff expect to be at least offered a 'transfer' to a 'new' operator? Does something like TUPE not apply?
I can see however that rotas incl start and finish times and places could be more than a nuisance for people offered 'take it or leave it'.
I don't know much so please be gentle with me if this posting is a load of whatsits.
As a passenger I'm not bothered about who runs the 'service' but that it does run reasonably to time and at a time I want, and (of course also) at a good price.

 

[Llandudno]

If this is the case then the competitive advance fares between EMR/Transpennine/Northern should continue.

And I like the EMR’s 158’s, provided four cars turn up and not 156s/153’s stuck together!

 

[Gareth]

That said, I've always liked EMT/R on the route and could see no compelling reason to split it. As a passenger, it will be nice to keep the 158's for a bit. Good crowd movers (assuming we get some crowds back).

We shouldn't assume the split isn't still on. Merely that EMR will retain operations on both sides of the split.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Were the TPE plans for more/new Nova3s?
I can easily see why DfT won't want to acquire new stock for the route when it's unclear what will happen to the spare 185s and 222s once TPE/EMR's fleet expansions are completed.
Not to mention Avanti's 221s and other potential cascades.
DfT can now dictate capacity and rolling stock policy while the franchises have been suspended.
Other potential rolling stock orders are probably also under the microscope (eg LNER's extra 80x).
Swapping routes between TOCs whose franchises are suspended is a bit like moving deck-chairs on the Titanic.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Were the TPE plans for more/new Nova3s?

I think it was to retain all the 185s and use them to cascade Mk5s for that service.

 

[DDB]

Selfishly as a regular Nottingham Derby commuter I hope they keep the plan to split at Nottingham and extend the Norwich at least as far as Derby so there are extra Derby Nottingham services!
This will rather put a spanner in the works for the all regional routes done by class 170s plan.

 

[43074]

Selfishly as a regular Nottingham Derby commuter I hope they keep the plan to split at Nottingham and extend the Norwich at least as far as Derby so there are extra Derby Nottingham services!
This will rather put a spanner in the works for the all regional routes done by class 170s plan.

More trains between Nottingham and Derby would have happened anyway as the plan for Dec 20 was to extend the Crewe services to start from Newark. The Matlock trains would start/terminate at Nottingham. I think the plan was for Norwich to Liverpool to be split regardless of TOC anyway, so the Derby plan is probably still on the cards.

 

[Killingworth]

I'm afraid this doesn't come as a total surprise. Even before COVID there was a reluctant feel about this transfer. Northern seem to have lost interest some time ago leaving TPE or EMR.

It's not a good time to change things. By the end of October we'll have a better idea of how well loadings are recovering, but the signs are not encouraging so far. Possibly only 10-15% of normal on the Sheffield - Manchester section. University term time might double that but it still leaves a lot of ground to make up to fill 4, let alone 6, coach trains. I hope I'm wrong!

 

[Geeves]

I guess it's got to be hard not to put the customer/ passenger/ taxpayer above a driver- sorry for all concerned,
For info- would not existing staff expect to be at least offered a 'transfer' to a 'new' operator? Does something like TUPE not apply?
I can see however that rotas incl start and finish times and places could be more than a nuisance for people offered 'take it or leave it'.
I don't know much so please be gentle with me if this posting is a load of whatsits.
As a passenger I'm not bothered about who runs the 'service' but that it does run reasonably to time and at a time I want, and (of course also) at a good price.

Brian I believe in this case the plan was to increase the driver compliment at TPE traincrew depot at Sheffield, where as all the current crew are based out of Nottingham for EMR so no one would have had to have been TUPED in this situation. Good news for the current crews I am sure its a good run to Liverpool and back to get most of the day of out the way.

 

[clagmonster]

Was the original plan not that Nottingham drivers would gain work into Lincolnshire with the increase in rural services there to offset the loss of Liverpool work? In which case, I wonder what will happen to the plans to enhance Lincolnshire rural services, especially with the likelihood of the 171s not coming north any time soon. No units and no crews for the services, one obvious conclusion.

If 222s are to be used, are they able to run at MU speeds in the Hope Valley or are they restricted as per a 185? If the latter, is their acceleration sufficient that they will keep to the current 158 times?

 

[the sniper]

It'll all be Regional Railways again soon enough, that'll finally sort out all the logistical problems.

 

[Fokx]

I think it was to retain all the 185s and use them to cascade Mk5s for that service.

Actually the plan was to keep all of the 185’s and use them on the service as there is no requirement to change the core traction at Manchester and Sheffield depots. Additionally the original plan/bid was Nova 3 but due to delays in delivery, traction training and trying to find solutions to limit noise, this was changed to 6 car 185’s.

 

[43074]

If 222s are to be used, are they able to run at MU speeds in the Hope Valley or are they restricted as per a 185? If the latter, is their acceleration sufficient that they will keep to the current 158 times?

The problem with 222s is one of capacity really, a 5 car set has around 240 seats whereas a 4 car 158 (or indeed, 170 variant) is cheaper to run and has around 50 seats more.There are still some 185s being released from TPE though, enough to run Liverpool to Nottingham anyway so pairs of those would be an option that would at least match the capacity of a pair of 158s.

 

[LowLevel]

Was the original plan not that Nottingham drivers would gain work into Lincolnshire with the increase in rural services there to offset the loss of Liverpool work? In which case, I wonder what will happen to the plans to enhance Lincolnshire rural services, especially with the likelihood of the 171s not coming north any time soon. No units and no crews for the services, one obvious conclusion.

If 222s are to be used, are they able to run at MU speeds in the Hope Valley or are they restricted as per a 185? If the latter, is their acceleration sufficient that they will keep to the current 158 times?

EMR have recruited a large number of extra guards already and are about to start work on drivers again.

 

[WesternLancer]

I just bet people at DfT are looking at every scrap of decisions to see where quick wins can be enacted that may have potential cost savings, and aborting changes that have not yet been implemented are obvious things to do. Finding ways to reduce other enhancements that have been promised (or postpone them) will be another idea they will surely be working on. Obv some of those enhancements will not be ones on the immediate horizon, where decisions have been taken that it is too late to reverse, but a little bit further on, things will be quietly dropped.

I don't think there is anyway traffic levels will return to pre covid levels any time soon, not least because lots of white collar jobs, which provided guaranteed income via seasons, are not going to be going back to workplaces any time soon. Even if employers insist on people being in offices occupancy rates will be lower so people will not be in every day even if they want to be (which is my own experience - I'd like to be working from the office again but my employer won't let me do that at all, and when they finally implement changes in the building they will only let about 25% of staff back in at any one time).

Student travelers mentioned further up - and that is a good point, a key sector of business for routes like this - anecdotal example I know, but I have friends whose child is anxious to get back to Uni to see friends and move into their shared house but the rather more risk averse parents are insisting on driving him back to his university town, so even that passenger segment will take a hit.

 

[BeHereNow]

Actually the plan was to keep all of the 185’s and use them on the service as there is no requirement to change the core traction at Manchester and Sheffield depots. Additionally the original plan/bid was Nova 3 but due to delays in delivery, traction training and trying to find solutions to limit noise, this was changed to 6 car 185’s.

Thanks for this. Could you elaborate on the second point there about the original plan being Nova 3 but then a change to Class 185s, not sure what you mean

 

[Kieran1990]

Thanks for this. Could you elaborate on the second point there about the original plan being Nova 3 but then a change to Class 185s, not sure what you mean

There was talk that TPE were going to retain the Class 185’s on Redcar-Manchester’s as doubles and move Mk5’s to Liverpool-Nottingham. Thinking was that it would be easy to swap sets at Liverpool / inter work them

 

[Fokx]

Thanks for this. Could you elaborate on the second point there about the original plan being Nova 3 but then a change to Class 185s, not sure what you mean

As Kieran has stated above, the original idea was that the Nova 3 sets would operate the Liverpool to Scarborough and Airport to Redcar Central (Middlesbrough) service.
This has not happened due to issues revolving training and fleet being delivered and accepted into service. There is problems with the existing fleet and a handful of sets have not yet been accepted by TPE.

When TPE were invited to bid for the Liverpool to Nottingham EMR route, the original bid was to use the Nova 3 trains destined for the Redcar service on the EMR route. The Redcar service would then be operated by 6 car Class 185 trains as it currently operates.

However due to the delays with the Nova 3 acceptance (more than two years after the full fleet should have been delivered) and training constraints, the decision was made to retain and use double 185 sets on the Liverpool to Nottingham to reduce crew training and fleet issues. This would have then been operated by Sheffield and Liverpool from December 2021. (Piccadilly and Airport conductors also sign Manchester to Sheffield as well as the Chat Moss diversion and class 185 core traction for when things go wrong).

However, this is now no longer the case and EMR are retaining the service for the foreseeable future.

 

[BeHereNow]

Thanks. I suppose another issue with using loco hauled sets for that would be the long turnround at Sheffield.

Interesting now to see whether TransPennine ever choose to accept all the Mk5 sets and whether they make it to Middlesbrough.

 

[Fokx]

Interesting now to see whether TransPennine ever choose to accept all the Mk5 sets and whether they make it to Middlesbrough.

Or if they’re eventually removed and replaced entirely.

It’s already widely known that the locals of Scarbados aren’t happy with the class 68 noise and apparently there’s been a few complaints at Redcar that the locals aren’t happy with the noise at night and have been launching projectiles at 185 units in and on approach to the sidings. They’re in for a very loud surprise if the route does end up with it’s planned class 68’s!

 

[edwin_m]

Thanks. I suppose another issue with using loco hauled sets for that would be the long turnround at Sheffield.

It's a push-pull set so can turn around as quickly as a DMU. But I'm not sure how the performance compares with a 158.

 

[YorksLad12]

Or if they’re eventually removed and replaced entirely.

It’s already widely known that the locals of Scarbados aren’t happy with the class 68 noise and apparently there’s been a few complaints at Redcar that the locals aren’t happy with the noise at night and have been launching projectiles at 185 units in and on approach to the sidings. They’re in for a very loud surprise if the route does end up with it’s planned class 68’s!

I'm not keen on them either when they pass through Leeds after midnight (at any time, really). Must be even worse for people on that side of the station - I'm north of the river and it's quite loud when idling at the platform, let alone when it launches. I'd prefer it if they could chalk this one down to experience, and order more 802s.

 

[DB]

Interesting now to see whether TransPennine ever choose to accept all the Mk5 sets

Depending on the contract terms of the lease, they may not have any choice in the matter!