EMT Unpaid Fare Notice update

[John @ home]

My understanding is that the wording of the 16-25 Railcard minimum fare rules in The Manual is:

Minimum fares Standard accommodation only

Before 10:00 Monday-Friday except for on Public Holidays or in July or August:
Ticket types: Off-Peak, Anytime, Other: £12.00
Ticket type: Advance: None

Any day in July and August, any Saturday, Sunday and Public Holiday with any ticket type:
None

Discounts on London Area Zones 1-6 Off-Peak Day Travelcards (All Zones only) and Anytime Day Travelcards (when bought as part of a ticket to London from outside London Zones 1 – 6) are subject to a separate minimum fare.

Off-Peak Day Travelcard
A minimum fare applies to Railcard discounts on adult Off-Peak Day Travelcards at all times (including during July and August). The minimum fare is £5.30 until 01 January 2012. From 02 January 2012 the minimum fare is £5.60.

• The minimum fare also applies to a discounted Zones 1-6 ‘Inboundary’ Off-Peak Day Travelcard. (Note: Railcard discounts are NOT available on any other zonal combinations of Day Travelcards)
• Where a Railcard has its own minimum fare rules, e.g. Network Railcard, the higher minimum fare amount applies. (Note: Network Railcard holders therefore should be issued with the appropriate full price ‘Inboundary’ Off-Peak Day Travelcard.)

Anytime Day Travelcard
Railcard discounts are available on Anytime Day Travelcards from stations outside the London Fare Zones 1-9 area. These are subject to the normal rules applicable to the Railcard, but in addition an adult minimum fare applies at all times (including during July and August). The minimum fare is £15·00 until 01 January 2012. From 02 January 2012 the minimum fare is £15.80.

No discounts are available on Anytime Day Travelcards issued for journeys wholly within Zones 1-9.

Yes, I agree that it comes down to whether the £12 minimum fare trumps the £5.30 minimum fare. There is nothing to suggest that it does.

I think the quotation above make matters clearer.

As the discounted fare can be bought from both NR and LU ticket offices, which I have done several times, it would be absurd that a passenger travelling from an unmanned station is unfairly penalised.

I would draw a distinction between the sale of a ticket and the validity of that ticket on a particular train.

 

[RJ]

---deleted

 

[RJ]

EMT have apologised for the incident and are issuing a refund. Their advice is to buy from a ticket office where possible. I absolutely agree with that, but it doesn't help me when it's not possible and I can only buy on board. But, as I have important things to get on with, I'll say thanks and not even bother to start with anything else.

Interestingly a reference was made to a totally seperate issue which I hadn't even contacted Customer Relations about. Oh well, I won't be travelling for some time as I don't have my priv any more!

 

[John @ home]

Interestingly a reference was made to a totally separate issue which I hadn't even contacted Customer Relations about.

Do you mean a separate issue which genuinely relates to you, perhaps displayed by their customer contact system, or a completely separate matter where the reply to someone else's query has been sent to you in error?

 

[RJ]

That would be the former. To be honest, I'm happy with this conclusion. When I telephoned EMT regarding this weeks ago, they were actually pleasant and supportive. They told me to appeal through the IAS and if that was unsatisfactory, to contact them again. True to their word, they've offered to reimburse me. It's only a small select few of the unsupervised TMs on the trains who don't seem to give a toss about customer service. I say this because I've been patronised and chastised when I've been polite and done nothing wrong. Most TMs are quite nice.

I will not pursue this any further. It has occured to me that the nature of my travel is almost unique. No precedent has been set as my style of travelling has never needed to be considered in the past. There's no point in kicking up a fuss, because few others, if any, would benefit if I did.

 

[RJ]

For any RPIs on here, an entry was added to The Manual under "Issuing privilege travel tickets" with regards to purchasing privilege rate tickets where the facility to do so does not exist at a station. The entry is dated in late December. I'm very satisfied that common sense has been put into black and white and look forward to travelling without issues in future.

If the ticket office is going to close several hours before the last train, it's necessary for measures to be in place to ensure that all passengers are not penalised . I feel like I got unduly harsh treatment because I was staff so I'm glad that it's been put in writing what RPIs should be doing.

As always, I will raise the alarm where I feel that something adversely affecting passengers is happening and request that the appropriate instructions are put into writing.

 

[34D]

Interestingly a reference was made to a totally seperate issue which I hadn't even contacted Customer Relations about. Oh well, I won't be travelling for some time as I don't have my priv any more!

They haven't reported you to your current/former employer have they?

 

[222007]

For any RPIs on here, an entry was added to The Manual under "Issuing privilege travel tickets" with regards to purchasing privilege rate tickets where the facility to do so does not exist at a station. The entry is dated in late December. I'm very satisfied that common sense has been put into black and white and look forward to travelling without issues in future..

As an RPI i always try to use common sence. We're all issued with mobile phones so if ever there was a situation where i didnt quite believe the station was closed it would be easy enough to make a phone call to confirm. My TOC has a very good system in place where by any station's that are closed or closing early get e-mailed out to staff so we are already aware.

In relation to EMT im not really surprised by the treatment you received if im honest as i've had extended family and even colleagues that have been very poorly treated by a certain RPI's and TM's of there's (i'll mention nothing more on that) in that common sence was never applied. In relation to PRIV's common sence i think should always prevail just my opinion for what its worth

 

[AlterEgo]

In relation to PRIV's common sence i think should always prevail just my opinion for what its worth

Common sense should prevail with all passengers, regardless of whether they have a Priv or not.

 

[222007]

Yes i agree however if there's an incident and a member of staff on board they could prove to be usefull more so than the average passenger. Im actually known to be one of the more lenient RPI's for our TOC so i must use some common sence at times

 

[AlterEgo]

Yes i agree however if there's an incident and a member of staff on board they could prove to be usefull more so than the average passenger.

So you'd be less likely to give a UFN to a Priv holder for the same 'offence' as an ordinary passenger?

 

[RJ]

They haven't reported you to your current/former employer have they?

At the moment, their TMs/RPIs have chastised me for;

- Travelling with a valid combination of tickets
- Being ticketless where I had no opportunity to buy a Priv ticket and requested to buy one on board

What is there to report me for?

 

[b0b]

At the moment, their TMs/RPIs have chastised me for;

- Travelling with a valid combination of tickets
- Being ticketless where I had no opportunity to buy a Priv ticket and requested to buy one on board

What is there to report me for?

Not buying a ticket that entitles you to make part of the journey from the TVM?

 

[yorkie]

Not buying a ticket that entitles you to make part of the journey from the TVM?

which could also be described as following the instructions of EMT staff (in the case in question)!!

 

[RJ]

Not buying a ticket that entitles you to make part of the journey from the TVM?

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you aren't trolling.

A.) What do EMT state in their publications with regards to one requiring a ticket type which is unavailable prior to boarding?

B.) What does the NRCoC have to say about ticketless travellers whereby a TOC has stated in its publications that you may board without a valid ticket?

 

[323235]

The EMT Penalty Fares leaflet http://www.eastmidlandstrains.co.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/EMTrains/AboutUs/Penalty-Fares-Leaflet.pdf

If you are unable to purchase your ticket online,
the following options are available for purchasing
tickets at a station:
• Ticket Vending Machines – these will accept
cash and most major credit/debit cards
• At the station Ticket Office.

If neither of these options are available at the station
(this may be because it is not possible to purchase the
type of ticket you require i.e. a concession ticket from
a Ticket Vending Machine or because it is out of order
and the station Ticket Office is closed) and you do
not have a pre-booked ticket, you should approach a
member of on board staff to purchase a ticket as soon
as possible.

No mention of having to buy a ticket which you don't want to part exchange.

 

[222007]

So you'd be less likely to give a UFN to a Priv holder for the same 'offence' as an ordinary passenger?

I treat every passenger i come across the same Fairly!!!!!!!!

 

[jon0844]

How many people would know what the correct fare is, and then seek to find a ticket on a TVM that is equal (or less than) this amount?

If you can't get a ticket, and there's no permit to travel, then I'd simply travel and buy one at the first opportunity. I wouldn't go hunting through the train looking for someone, but nor would I walk out of the station at the other end if there was the means to pay there.

 

[embers25]

How many people would know what the correct fare is, and then seek to find a ticket on a TVM that is equal (or less than) this amount?

If you can't get a ticket, and there's no permit to travel, then I'd simply travel and buy one at the first opportunity. I wouldn't go hunting through the train looking for someone, but nor would I walk out of the station at the other end if there was the means to pay there.

I agree with you but SWT Revenue Managers don't! They have told me several times now that you must buy a ticket to a station along the way and upgrade on the train. If as in my case (Pinhoe to St James Park) the only fares available are more expensive you must pay it and claim a refund!! Their argument is that you could always buy online if ou know the machine won't sell it. I know this is ridiculous but they said I would be Penalty Fared if I tried to buy on board!! This is my whole argument for all ticket machines having to offer all fares and destinations in penalty fare areas.

 

[island]

On the other hand, I have been complained at by Southeastern staff when I attempted a part-exchange!

 

[jon0844]

I agree with you but SWT Revenue Managers don't! They have told me several times now that you must buy a ticket to a station along the way and upgrade on the train. If as in my case (Pinhoe to St James Park) the only fares available are more expensive you must pay it and claim a refund!! Their argument is that you could always buy online if ou know the machine won't sell it. I know this is ridiculous but they said I would be Penalty Fared if I tried to buy on board!! This is my whole argument for all ticket machines having to offer all fares and destinations in penalty fare areas.

That is crazy! Pay more and claim a refund? Buy online? And if the machine to print your ticket doesn't work, should you buy well in advance and pay for first class, special delivery, to get your ticket by post to make absolutely sure you get it? And ticket holders who want an extension must now know way in advance of their plans, as even though buying online usually means the ticket is available almost immediately, there's no guarantee as I believe you are told to allow an hour or two before collecting.

It's bad enough that they say it, but if they actually tried to do it then I'd go mental. It's my duty to do everything I can to buy a ticket, but until the railway stops offering walk-up tickets completely and everything requires advanced bookings, with you getting a printed ticket in advance or an e-ticket to print out (like the airlines) then the above cannot be right. If they want the airline system, they will also have to be like an airline - which would not have the airport unstaffed!

 

[ALEMASTER]

Do they not have permit to travel machines?

You use those for part payment then upgrade to the priv ticket required at the first opportunity.

This proves intention to pay, rather than walking past the machines, boarding the train without approaching the conductor/train manager and sitting down and not asking for a ticket until challenged.

 

[Brucey]

Do they not have permit to travel machines?

Most TOCs (EMT included) have removed the PERTIS machines when "modern" TVMs were installed.

 

[swt_passenger]

No mention of having to buy a ticket which you don't want to part exchange.

Doesn't need to be really, because buying a 'part exchange' ticket (or a PTT where available) is already part of the normal conditions of carriage...

The rules for PF areas are an addition to the normal rules, AIUI.

 

[RJ]

An envelope with a Stagecoach stamp arrived today.

Cheque for full refund + compensation within. So EMT themselves, IRCAS and several industry contacts seem to think that something has gone wrong somewhere. An amendment to The Manual seems to support this.

So problem has been identified and considered. Correctative measures have been applied and a solution has been put into place. Happy outcome .

 

[jon0844]

Do they not have permit to travel machines?

These have all been removed around here, which is rather crazy given how TVMs can't issue all tickets, and regularly fail to take cash (either exact money only, or no cash at all - possibly due to security fears).

What's more, TOCs sometimes leave TVMs on a Friday evening with 'OUT OF SERVICE - No ticket stock' errors on the screen and the ticket office is closed and the gates are open!

It's almost as if they want to dish out easy penalty fares, from RPIs that say things like 'Don't worry - just accept this and you can appeal it' knowing that people probably won't appeal, or will find it hard to appeal when someone might say that accepting it was an admission of guilt.

I would bring back permit to travel machines to stand in when TVMs are out of use which seems to be quite a bit. Who knows, you could even put a poster next to it that has common fares detailed. Shock, horror - an old school way of letting people know fares without having to ask, use an app or find a working TVM!

 

[RJ]

I wouldn't say it's a ploy to extract extra revenue from people. It's more a case of swings and roundabouts. PTT machines have their downsides, namely that people can get away with paying 5p for their journey without fare evading and their inability to accept cards. The local parking machines have a number you can ring if you wish to pay by card but I doubt the cost of operating a similar service could be justified.

In my time in the ticket office, I only ever had one PTT which I promptly accepted as cash. I'm sure quite a few more people should really have had one but then again, there was an emphasis on "common sense/customer friendly working" whereby some of the stricter rules of the NRCoC were generally relaxed if there was no suspicion of foul play.

 

[Greenback]

There seems to be an absence of common sense in the attitude at EMT and SWT. It is impossible to know in advance if the TVM will be able to sell the ticket you want unless you have tried it before. I really am a t a loss to understand why they are so unable to accept that people often travel at very short notice, rather than planning every single journey months or weeks in advance.

 

[island]

In my time in the ticket office, I only ever had one PTT which I promptly accepted as cash.

You're supposed to put it through as "PERTIS redemption", I think.

 

[RJ]

You're supposed to put it through as "PERTIS redemption", I think.

It goes through the TIS as cash. On the shift accountancy balance sheet, it is then recorded in the debit column as a Permit To Travel, that way everything balances.

There seems to be an absence of common sense in the attitude at EMT and SWT. It is impossible to know in advance if the TVM will be able to sell the ticket you want unless you have tried it before. I really am a t a loss to understand why they are so unable to accept that people often travel at very short notice, rather than planning every single journey months or weeks in advance.

Bit of a nuisance really. I've already complained about the on board experience and also an occasion at Sheffield where a clerk refused to sell me an SOR for the next day. To be fair, the on board experience has been generously compensated, but a solution for future instances of short notice evening travel was not addressed - I was just told to try and buy in advance wherever possible owing to the complexity of the tickets I buy. To be fair, I am incredibly specific when buying tickets in order to speed up the process. I'm even ready with the NLCs and have the full official Rover & Ranger NLC/Price spreadsheet and instructions to help anyone who claims they don't know how to work the secondary/rover enquiry options on the machine.

I'll be back travelling soon as well as a brand new Priv card graced my letterbox this week.

Instead of going to ticket offices and having problems on board, over the last few days, I've been booking tickets in advance online. Everything has been precisely arranged and I even have reservations for every trip. No potential for issues there then .