ENCTS and London buses

[TUC]

For those interested, the guidance on how the ENCTS reimbursement arrangements operate is at https://webarchive.nationalarchives...uthorities/reimbursementappeals/busoperators/

(Ignore the 'archive' references. This is apparently still the existing guidance.)

What is striking about it is both the amount of detail and the multiple different options set out. Of course such arrangements need to be designed well, but there is a fine line between working through the detail vs thinking too much.

If this is typical of DfT documents, it's unsurprising that they get too lost in the detail to design and manage TOC franchises well.

 

[Ken H]

What is so hard for TfLbuses toread national ENCTS passes? Its only an ITSO card.

 

[Surreytraveller]

What is so hard for TfLbuses toread national ENCTS passes? Its only an ITSO card.

Don't they read Travelcards on an ITSO?

 

[Wallsendmag]

Don't they read Travelcards on an ITSO?

Indeed they do but it costs the issuer a fortune on onboard their cards with TfL can’t see every pass issuer doing that

 

[Haywain]

Indeed they do but it costs the issuer a fortune on onboard their cards with TfL can’t see every pass issuer doing that

Although if every card issuer went through that process it would probably wipe out a significant part of TfL's deficit!

 

[Falcon1200]

It would help too if the bus readers actually worked. Last week my Mum showed her ENCTS pass and was waved on, I went to use my contactless card and was waved on also! I rarely use London buses, but last year too, visiting my sister, two of the four buses I used had a piece of paper taped to the reader with 'out of order' scribbled on. TfL must be losing a fortune.

 

[Haywain]

It would help too if the bus readers actually worked. Last week my Mum showed her ENCTS pass and was waved on, I went to use my contactless card and was waved on also! I rarely use London buses, but last year too, visiting my sister, two of the four buses I used had a piece of paper taped to the reader with 'out of order' scribbled on. TfL must be losing a fortune.

I think your experience overstates how often that actually happens. It's not something I've ever seen.
.

 

[James H]

I would say I get several free TfL bus journeys a year due to broken ticket machines.

And that's perhaps with 2-3 bus trips a week on average.

 

[zero]

In 17 years of living in London I would guess this has happened to me about 50 times.

But the journey would only have been free about 5 times, because I usually had a travelcard or would have reached the daily cap anyway - and now there is hopper and weekly capping too.

 

[pinkmarie80]

I’ve got a Leicestershire County Council ENCTS pass and I never use it in London.
By the time I get on a bus I’ve usually hit the Oyster contactless cap for the day anyway so I find it easier just to tap.
I once got on a bus in London with my brother and mum, both of whom also have non-London ENCTS passes and the driver was being difficult with them- I just tapped my phone and got straight on.

 

[matt_world2004]

I’ve got a Leicestershire County Council ENCTS pass and I never use it in London.
By the time I get on a bus I’ve usually hit the Oyster contactless cap for the day anyway so I find it easier just to tap.
I once got on a bus in London with my brother and mum, both of whom also have non-London ENCTS passes and the driver was being difficult with them- I just tapped my phone and got straight on.

If you ever have difficulty with your non lpndon encts passes please complain . Particularly noting the fleet number and time of the interaction. Many vulnerable people have encts passes and they may not have the confidence to challenge bus drivers decisions

 

[1955LR]

I have used my Herefordshire ENCTS pass on London buses with no issues at all, just shown it to the driver as a got on.

 

[AM9]

I have used my Herefordshire ENCTS pass on London buses with no issues at all, just shown it to the driver as a got on.

Same here with my Hertfordshire pass.

 

[PeterC]

I have used my Herefordshire ENCTS pass on London buses with no issues at all, just shown it to the driver as a got on.

Same with my Bucks pass, I just walk on confidently holding it up.

 

[steamybrian]

Same with my Kent pass.
I have used on buses in most counties around England from Cornwall to Cumbria.

 

[plymothian]

What is so hard for TfLbuses toread national ENCTS passes? Its only an ITSO card.

It may be "only an ITSO card", but it's the coding behind the ITSO card. Every organisation has a unique key to decode its own data from HOPS (Host Operator or Processing System). Another operator has to request that key from the original operator in order to read others cards. Bus companies are not going to request keys from every other bus/train/council in the country, usually just settling for the ones closest to where they operate.

ITSO cards are interoperable on national rail because when smart tickets were launched, TOCs did so under a unified scheme, which is why you have some outliers of legacy ITSO that didn't/don't fully integrate (such as Scotrail and The Key).

 

[AM9]

It may be "only an ITSO card", but it's the coding behind the ITSO card. Every organisation has a unique key to decode its own data from HOPS (Host Operator or Processing System). Another operator has to request that key from the original operator in order to read others cards. Bus companies are not going to request keys from every other bus/train/council in the country, usually just settling for the ones closest to where they operate.

ITSO cards are interoperable on national rail because when smart tickets were launched, TOCs did so under a unified scheme, which is why you have some outliers of legacy ITSO that didn't/don't fully integrate (such as Scotrail and The Key).

Then it's TfL's choice to gift travel to non-GLA resident ITSO cardholders if they don't put in place a compatible checking system in place.

 

[Stephen42]

Then it's TfL's choice to gift travel to non-GLA resident ITSO cardholders if they don't put in place a compatible checking system in place.

TfL don't have a choice, the travel is free for those with a valid ENCTS card whether they read the ITSO card or not. They get reimbursed by London Councils who could make a fuss about whether the data is accurate, but the bus operator doesn't get the revenue and vast majority are of residents with electronically recorded freedom passes.

The electronically recorded/estimated usage gap is far bigger for other modes without gatelines or a person supervising the validator e.g. DLR/Tram, that's where it's far more likely to have questions about how the data is estimated to avoid paying more than they need to.

 

[Haywain]

It may be "only an ITSO card", but it's the coding behind the ITSO card. Every organisation has a unique key to decode its own data from HOPS (Host Operator or Processing System). Another operator has to request that key from the original operator in order to read others cards. Bus companies are not going to request keys from every other bus/train/council in the country, usually just settling for the ones closest to where they operate.

Acceptance of ENCTS cards can't be quite that complicated because if it was it would be happening on pretty much every bus outside London.

 

[plymothian]

Acceptance of ENCTS cards can't be quite that complicated because if it was it would be happening on pretty much every bus outside London.

All buses accept ENCTS in their country, but they don't necessarily automatically accept all ENCTS by touching on, there's usually a separate button on the ticket machine for 'out of local area' cards that will record the journey after a visual check.

One of the advantages of bus companies being owned by larger companies, is that, for example, one Go Ahead company can share their key with all the other Go Ahead operators.

Similarly a TOC can read an ENCTS card and recognise its a smartcard, but it cannot read the ticket contained on that card as it doesn't have the required key.

 

[matt_world2004]

Then it's TfL's choice to gift travel to non-GLA resident ITSO cardholders if they don't put in place a compatible checking system in place.

They aren't gifting anything within Greater london , the councils pay a flat fee to tfl for encts pass usage . Tfl recieve that flat fee regardless of if 1 passenger males a journey using ENCTS passes or a million

 

[Stephen42]

They aren't gifting anything within Greater london , the councils pay a flat fee to tfl for encts pass usage . Tfl recieve that flat fee regardless of if 1 passenger males a journey using ENCTS passes or a million

I wouldn't expect it to be described as a flat fee given it changes each year and apportionment varies based on use. The settlement is agreed in advance so doesn't vary based on usage but the settlement is agreed based on usage.

This year it was actually revised just two months ago, in the 23 March 2023 Committee meeting sadly only available as full agenda & reports, pages 57-61 are about the revision as the annual fare increase wasn't known by the end of 2022.

 

[matt_world2004]

I wouldn't expect it to be described as a flat fee given it changes each year and apportionment varies based on use. The settlement is agreed in advance so doesn't vary based on usage but the settlement is agreed based on usage.

This year it was actually revised just two months ago, in the 23 March 2023 Committee meeting sadly only available as full agenda & reports, pages 57-61 are about the revision as the annual fare increase wasn't known by the end of 2022.

Isn't it based on the amount of freedom passes in circulation at each Borough though. Not the passes actual usage.?

 

[Stephen42]

Isn't it based on the amount of freedom passes in circulation at each Borough though. Not the passes actual usage.?

Nope, it's based on usage and calculated by the aggregation of the proportion for each mode. The huge table on page 24 of the 8 December 22 meeting reports shows the various percentages by council for each mode, for example the most recent distribution Croydon pays for 61% of Tram and 0.5% of DLR, compared to Tower Hamlets 39% of DLR and 0.1% of Tram.

 

[sheff1]

All buses accept ENCTS in their country, but they don't necessarily automatically accept all ENCTS by touching on, there's usually a separate button on the ticket machine for 'out of local area' cards that will record the journey after a visual check.

I have used my ENCTS for years on bus companies large and small from Kent to Cumbia and Cornwall to Norfolk. The number of times I have had a visual check can be counted on the fingers of one hand so certainly not 'usual'. Obviously it doesn't work in London for the reasons explained here, but I find most drivers there have no interest at all when shown it on boarding.

 

[wildcard]

ENCTS being queried on TfL Buses

After showing a national Old Codgers bus pass to the driver on TfL buses without issue for several years - today two drivers insisted that I swiped it against the Oyster reader . As expected - it shows an "invalid card" error . One then claimed it clearly wasn't valid and if I tried to use it...

www.railforums.co.uk

My original post was after showing my Hertfordshire ENCTS as usual , a few TfL drivers then insisted I swiped it against the Oyster reader - either by pointing at it or by command. Then reacting to the "invalid card" error by scowling or outright claiming it wasn't valid and by implication I needed to find another method of payment. I suspect the issue is - other than a lack of training, ENCTS looking similar to Freedom Passes so a new driver may question why a traveller hasn't bothered to swipe - perhaps its a fake or expired /reported stolen, hence the request to scan .
As suggested by a previous contributor I now carry a copy of the relevant pages from the drivers handbook - however all I do now is just say "This doesn't work on your machine" . Swipe then carry on .
This happened recently - same bus route as before - the 186 at Harrow & Wealdstone.

 

[TUC]

ENCTS being queried on TfL Buses

After showing a national Old Codgers bus pass to the driver on TfL buses without issue for several years - today two drivers insisted that I swiped it against the Oyster reader . As expected - it shows an "invalid card" error . One then claimed it clearly wasn't valid and if I tried to use it...

www.railforums.co.uk

My original post was after showing my Hertfordshire ENCTS as usual , a few TfL drivers then insisted I swiped it against the Oyster reader - either by pointing at it or by command. Then reacting to the "invalid card" error by scowling or outright claiming it wasn't valid and by implication I needed to find another method of payment. I suspect the issue is - other than a lack of training, ENCTS looking similar to Freedom Passes so a new driver may question why a traveller hasn't bothered to swipe - perhaps its a fake or expired /reported stolen, hence the request to scan .
As suggested by a previous contributor I now carry a copy of the relevant pages from the drivers handbook - however all I do now is just say "This doesn't work on your machine" . Swipe then carry on .
This happened recently - same bus route as before - the 186 at Harrow & Wealdstone.

Part of the problem is TfL having Freedom Passes as a separate brand. A number ofparts of the country have local enhancements to the basic ENTCS scheme whilst still retaining the ENCTS brand. It's hard to see why TfL is the exception.

 

[MikeWh]

Part of the problem is TfL having Freedom Passes as a separate brand. A number ofparts of the country have local enhancements to the basic ENTCS scheme whilst still retaining the ENCTS brand. It's hard to see why TfL is the exception.

The TfL pass does include the English rose emblem. If I recall correctly the freedom Pass predated the ENCTS scheme by several years.

 

[James H]

Also the Freedom Pass is not a TfL brand - the scheme is run by London Councils (the boroughs working together through their umbrella organisation)

 

[RJ]

When an ITSO card is validated on a bus ticket machine in London, the machine says ITSO card - show driver.

Showing the driver should be the end of it - has anybody had any issue with the driver not letting them on with a valid pass?

It would help too if the bus readers actually worked. Last week my Mum showed her ENCTS pass and was waved on, I went to use my contactless card and was waved on also! I rarely use London buses, but last year too, visiting my sister, two of the four buses I used had a piece of paper taped to the reader with 'out of order' scribbled on. TfL must be losing a fortune.

It wasn’t at the first stop by any chance? If the bus has just been switched on, or the driver is logging on having taken over mid-route, it takes a while for the machine be ready to take fares and it’s common in these circumstances for drivers to wave people on!