Ensignbus £10 contactless limit and Apple Pay / Google Pay ban

[JaJaWa]

Anyone know what's going on here?

23 July 2022

Important changes to Contactless Payments from 23rd July 2022
Because of a rise in fraud, we regret that we need to change how all types of Contactless payment is used on our network. A reduced £10 Contactless limit will be introduced which may mean having to do more than one contactless transaction in some cases where multiple tickets are required which work out above £10 in value.
The following season tickets will still be available for Contactless purchase but via two transactions:
Thurrock Adult 7 Day
Thurrock Child 7 Day
Thurrock & X80 Child 7 Day
Thurrock/ Thurrock + X80 Family tickets
Thurrock Student 7 Day*/ Thurrock + X80 Student 7 Day*
The following season tickets will be available for CASH PURCHASE ONLY:
Thurrock Adult 28 Day
Thurrock Child 28 Day
Thurrock & X80 Adult 7 Day
Thurrock & X80 Adult 28 Day
Thurrock & X80 Child 28 Day
Thurrock Student 28 Day*/ Thurrock + X80 Student 28 Day*
*= From September
We are sorry for any inconvenience that this may cause.
Ensignbus

30 July 2022

Further changes to Contactless Payments from 30th July 2022
Because of a large rise in fraud, we regret that we need to further change how Contactless payment is used on our network. A reduced £10 Contactless limit has been introduced and we now need to stop Apple Pay & Google Pay transactions however, we will continue to accept contactless cards. We don't like putting these restrictions on and making things harder for you, however we have little choice when £10k has been lost through contactless non-payments over the last 3 months alone. As a small business, these sorts of losses are unsustainable and could result in bus service cuts or ultimate closure of the business if left unchallenged.
The following season tickets remain available for CARD Contactless purchase but via two transactions:
Thurrock Adult 7 Day
Thurrock Child 7 Day
Thurrock & X80 Child 7 Day
Thurrock/ Thurrock + X80 Family tickets
Thurrock Student 7 Day*/ Thurrock + X80 Student 7 Day*
The following season tickets are available for CASH PURCHASE ONLY:
Thurrock Adult 28 Day
Thurrock Child 28 Day
Thurrock & X80 Adult 7 Day
Thurrock & X80 Adult 28 Day
Thurrock & X80 Child 28 Day
Thurrock Student 28 Day*/ Thurrock + X80 Student 28 Day*
*= From September
We are sorry for any inconvenience that this may cause.
Ensignbus

 

[Bletchleyite]

I suspect there may be more to this. And how does two transactions have any effect?

 

[JaJaWa]

I suspect there may be more to this. And how does two transactions have any effect?

Could their theory be that the card will not be able to make a second payment if the first hasn't gone through properly?

 

[MotCO]

I presume that this mostly relates to season tickets. In which case, is it possible to identify those season tickets bought fraudulently, and ban/reject them when used?

I'm also not sure of the 'legality' of making two small payments for the same transaction - buying tickets for two people is probably ok, but not using the card twice for the same purchase.

 

[Glasgowbusguy]

I presume that this mostly relates to season tickets. In which case, is it possible to identify those season tickets bought fraudulently, and ban/reject them when used?

I'm also not sure of the 'legality' of making two small payments for the same transaction - buying tickets for two people is probably ok, but not using the card twice for the same purchase.

It is allowed was a common thing to do in my old work , it's just a split tender

 

[Bletchleyite]

Could their theory be that the card will not be able to make a second payment if the first hasn't gone through properly?

I have noticed that Ticketer does seem to have a bit of a quirk when it comes to authorising card payments - it seems to do them on a batch basis shortly after you sit down, and only for 10p rather than the real amount. It could well be that this two transaction thing is a workaround to allow that to take place and potentially bar the card before the second one.

It is an odd setup, though, and I don't entirely get why it doesn't authorise on the spot, it takes a second or two when online. But then there are many odd things about Ticketer that don't make sense; it has been a big success in getting card acceptance widespread, but the design leaves a lot to be desired in many ways.

(Transit mode requires no authorisation, but transit mode isn't used for ticket sales in advance, only for tap in style operation)

 

[Busaholic]

I'm also not sure of the 'legality' of making two small payments for the same transaction - buying tickets for two people is probably ok, but not using the card twice for the same purchase.

Deja vu. When cheques were the rage, there used to be a £50 limit on each cheque that was backed by a guarantee card, and you weren't allowed to present a series of cheques with different dates on them, but I don't believe banks were prone to dishonour them (or even notice) without good extra reason. Whether it was actually illegal or not I know not. My sympathies are with Ensignbus for being put in this situation: in this country we are far too eager to introduce new technology without ironing out the wrinkles beforehand.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Deja vu. When cheques were the rage, there used to be a £50 limit on each cheque that was backed by a guarantee card, and you weren't allowed to present a series of cheques with different dates on them, but I don't believe banks were prone to dishonour them (or even notice) without good extra reason. Whether it was actually illegal or not I know not. My sympathies are with Ensignbus for being put in this situation: in this country we are far too eager to introduce new technology without ironing out the wrinkles beforehand.

Was there anything that mandated Ensignbus to accept contactless, or to obtain machines from Ticketer? Or were these commercial decisions which have perhaps gone a little wrong for them?

 

[Observer]

Was there anything that mandated Ensignbus to accept contactless, or to obtain machines from Ticketer? Or were these commercial decisions which have perhaps gone a little wrong for them?

You can still have Ticketer machines without contactless. Same with not needing the QR code scanner for tickets, quite a lot of the machines don't have them fitted.

 

[James H]

Are vendors able to arbitrarily refuse to accept Apple Pay / Google Pay? (Does it fit with Visa/Mastercard merchant agreements?)

Surely so far as the machine is concerned it is just another card?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are vendors able to arbitrarily refuse to accept Apple Pay / Google Pay? (Does it fit with Visa/Mastercard merchant agreements?)

Surely so far as the machine is concerned it is just another card?

M6 Toll doesn't accept Google/Apple Pay, so yes.

I suspect this is because it's technically illegal as it's using a hand held phone while in control of a vehicle - the new legislation does fix this by expressly permitting use for payment at a contactless terminal but I forget when that kicks in if it hasn't already.

 

[computerSaysNo]

I suspect this is because it's technically illegal as it's using a hand held phone while in control of a vehicle - the new legislation does fix this by expressly permitting use for payment at a contactless terminal but I forget when that kicks in if it hasn't already.

I think it has already but I still disagree with it. Sounds like it would be very easy for drivers to abuse and get away with it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think it has already but I still disagree with it. Sounds like it would be very easy for drivers to abuse and get away with it.

Does it? I am not sure how someone not at a card terminal could be in any way construed to be making a payment using one!

 

[tomuk]

M6 Toll doesn't accept Google/Apple Pay, so yes.

I suspect this is because it's technically illegal as it's using a hand held phone while in control of a vehicle - the new legislation does fix this by expressly permitting use for payment at a contactless terminal but I forget when that kicks in if it hasn't already.

Isn't it just M6 Toll being cheap and not upgrading the toll machines to be Apple/Google pay compatible?

 

[James H]

If a terminal is contactless-capable, then it can support Apple or Google Pay

 

[TTS]

I believe unscrupulous individuals are buying multiple high-value season tickets (on different buses) paid by contactless card. They are then reselling the tickets at reduced prices. However, subsequent payment to Ensign is being declined by the banks, presumably on grounds of "insufficient funds".

The problem seems to revolve around who takes the risk (and what the upper limit is) on contactless card payments on-bus - the merchant (Ensignbus in this case) or the issuing bank in cases where the accountholder has insufficient funds.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Realistically the "proper" fix is to implement a modern "freeflow" tolling approach like Dartford and remove the booths. I suspect this will come soon enough.

A bit of Googling suggests that they claim it is an issue with the readers, which seem to act similarly to Ticketer machines on buses in not authorising on the spot but doing it a few seconds later.

https://www.coolsmartphone.com/2016/10/18/the-m6-toll-not-quite-contactless-actually/ refers (actual text is lengthy and in an image so not quoted, but is summarised as above).

 

[tomuk]

If a terminal is contactless-capable, then it can support Apple or Google Pay

But aren't there different modes in which the terminal can interact with the device varying from a 'native' Apple Pay mode to a 'compatible' EMV mode. Maybe it's just coincidence but it was my experience that as shops announced they accepted apple pay they had also upgraded their terminals.

Realistically the "proper" fix is to implement a modern "freeflow" tolling approach like Dartford and remove the booths. I suspect this will come soon enough.

A bit of Googling suggests that they claim it is an issue with the readers, which seem to act similarly to Ticketer machines on buses in not authorising on the spot but doing it a few seconds later.

https://www.coolsmartphone.com/2016/10/18/the-m6-toll-not-quite-contactless-actually/ refers (actual text is lengthy and in an image so not quoted, but is summarised as above).

On the M6 toll the asset pips are squeezed to obtain the maximum return with as little investment as possible, they don't want to attract more users as that will increase maintenance costs. The toll booths will be replaced when they are falling down.

 

[Wolfie]

Isn't it just M6 Toll being cheap and not upgrading the toll machines to be Apple/Google pay compatible?

Their choice. They are not obliged to accept that form of payment.

 

[Busaholic]

Was there anything that mandated Ensignbus to accept contactless, or to obtain machines from Ticketer? Or were these commercial decisions which have perhaps gone a little wrong for them?

Commercial decisions probably forced on them against their better judgment by the prevailing ethos. So many 'decisions' are made by people who have little or no choice to go along with them if they wish to continue in business. Fraudsters will always win in this country while fraud is considered by the powers-that-be as too difficult/expensive/tiresome to deal with. If only it was the 'useful idiots' who proclaim every new technological development to be the best thing since the last one who got scammed or defrauded, which would be some sort of rough justice.

Commercial decisions probably forced on them against their better judgment by the prevailing ethos. So many 'decisions' are made by people who have little or no choice to go along with them if they wish to continue in business. Fraudsters will always win in this country while fraud is considered by the powers-that-be as too difficult/expensive/tiresome to deal with. If only it was the 'useful idiots' who proclaim every new technological development to be the best thing since the last one who got scammed or defrauded, which would be some sort of rough justice.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But aren't there different modes in which the terminal can interact with the device varying from a 'native' Apple Pay mode to a 'compatible' EMV mode. Maybe it's just coincidence but it was my experience that as shops announced they accepted apple pay they had also upgraded their terminals.


On the M6 toll the asset pips are squeezed to obtain the maximum return with as little investment as possible, they don't want to attract more users as that will increase maintenance costs. The toll booths will be replaced when they are falling down.

ANPR based freeflow tolling would allow a significant staffing cut so would save them money, hence why it is likely.

 

[Dai Corner]

I'm surprised Ensignbus can't disable season tickets found to have been obtained fraudulently? Do they still issue them on bits of paper and rely on the drivers visually checking them?

The fraudsters will have to go back to good old forged notes I suppose.

 

[E-Rail]

Its nothing to do with Ticketer. A serious loophole in the contactless payments system has come to light. Expect the major groups to follow Ensign in the coming weeks.

 

[tomuk]

ANPR based freeflow tolling would allow a significant staffing cut so would save them money, hence why it is likely.

Since covid they stopped taking cash and the booths are unmanned.

 

[Glasgowbusguy]

If a terminal is contactless-capable, then it can support Apple or Google Pay

Not strictly true some older contactless machines can't accept Apple or Google pay hence why quite alot of retailers had to upgrade there pin pads about 3 years ago

 

[Bletchleyite]

Its nothing to do with Ticketer. A serious loophole in the contactless payments system has come to light. Expect the major groups to follow Ensign in the coming weeks.

If you do an authorisation before you print the ticket, what on earth loophole could that be?

Ticketer doesn't, which is why I am pointing at it. It does it shortly afterwards and for the wrong sum.

Since covid they stopped taking cash and the booths are unmanned.

There are staff there for if you get stuck, you can summon them by pressing a button and they complete something very much like an Unpaid Fares Notice for payment later. If freeflow tolling was used those staff could be laid off.

 

[Starmill]

Transit mode requires no authorisation, but transit mode isn't used for ticket sales in advance, only for tap in style operation

I believe that it is. How else would you use it given the bus doesn't have a chip and pin machine? "Oh sorry, the transaction hasn't gone through because you need to use your card's chip. We don't take cash any more and this is the last bus of the day so I guess you'll have to walk home."

What Ensignbus appear to be doing is trying to move the fraud risk from them to the card issuer, as £10 is still the limit in transport mode. However I imagine that splitting one ticket sale into two transactions to get it under £10 purely to evade the fraud risk is also a breach of the card scheme's rules...

What will be happening is that people are paying for tickets with cards that don't have enough money in the relevant account. The transaction then declines but of course the customer is long gone as it won't post immediately.

 

[tomuk]

If you do an authorisation before you print the ticket, what on earth loophole could that be?

Ticketer doesn't, which is why I am pointing at it. It does it shortly afterwards and for the wrong sum.



There are staff there for if you get stuck, you can summon them by pressing a button and they complete something very much like an Unpaid Fares Notice for payment later. If freeflow tolling was used those staff could be laid off.

I know there are staff supervising the booths what aren't there any longer are the attendants in each booth. Anyhow even if you went to ANPR you would need staff to man the 'call centre' administering the payment process.

 

[Starmill]

If you do an authorisation before you print the ticket, what on earth loophole could that be?

Ticketer doesn't, which is why I am pointing at it. It does it shortly afterwards and for the wrong sum.

Do any bus ticket machines do an online authorisation in real time? My Stagecoach Vix ones never come through on the same day.

 

[E-Rail]

As I said, Ticketer isn't the issue, nor is the authorisation and nor is it about forged tickets.