(Entirely) new railway lines

[Worm]

Talacre to West Kirby tunnel, makes North Wales a commuter region for Merseyside

That region of North Wales is my ideal place to commute to Manchester from as well. Oldham doesn’t quite cut it anymore for me, plus we lost our rail link a long time ago.

 

[Tobbes]

I seem to recall @Bald Rick or @ChiefPlanner mentioning that there could be spare terminal capacity at Liverpool St post CR1. If true, I'd want to tunnel from very near the terminus to somewhere north of Lambourne End, and then on an HS alignment to somewhere near High Roding, Essex, and then split to Stansted and Cambridge and to the GEML around Marks Tey. This would immediately speed up all trains north of Witham, and take the Stansteds and Cambridges off the WAML south of Elsenham.

Be interesting to understand what proportion of Stansted customers use Tottenham Hale for the Victoria Line, but overall this relieves both GEML and WAML across the southern half of Essex.

 

[southern442]

For a transport corridor to work it sometimes needs an imbalance between the two places. Small town to big city might work well because there's a reason to leave the small town for jobs/ shops etc that only the big city can provide. Whereas medium sized town to medium sized town might not work because there's not a lot in one that the first place doesn't already have (why travel half an hour each way just to visit eh same range of shops that your town already has?). In other words, linking some orbital places sounds nice in theory but is there much actual demand? What is there in High Wycombe for people in Welwyn Garden City/ vice versa? (that's just using one of the "orbital" examples on this thread - not a dig at any one poster - just one example of the "linking two medium sized places where it's not obvious what flows there'd be)

Getting a little deeper into theory-of-urban-design territory, it ultimately depends on the towns themselves. The most clear example, as you pointed out, being a smaller town feeding into a bigger one, but there are several others that exist. In an ideal world, every urban area should have unique qualities, but in real life this depends upon when they were built or modernized. There would be little point in a service from Runcorn to Skelmersdale, both new towns built in the 60s, and both (presumably, I confess I haven't visited either) having more or less the exact same features, and little reason to visit one over the other. However this is not to say that all medium-sized towns are the same. There is plenty of flow between Portsmouth and Southampton, and Southampton and Bournemouth, for example, although each is a similar size (although the latter's urban sprawl is a bit bigger) and in a similar location. They each have their own USP's and character, and serve different functions to their residents, and this must also be considered.

So it's worth saying that one must examine the route being created in terms of where it is connecting. If you're connecting two similar towns for the sake of it, it's probably not worth it, however on the other hand, just because there isn't currently a huge demand or traffic flow, doesn't mean that there couldn't be if the right facilities (i.e. a railway) were in place.

 

[Bald Rick]

I seem to recall @Bald Rick or @ChiefPlanner mentioning that there could be spare terminal capacity at Liverpool St post CR1.

You might have remembered me saying there isn’t spare terminal capacity at Liverpool Street post Crossrail 1 (or Crossrail 2 for that matter)

Be interesting to understand what proportion of Stansted customers use Tottenham Hale for the Victoria Line,

Getting on for half.

 

[A0wen]

The car-centered nature of new towns in the UK is very outdated, and having one station on the very edge of a large town, much like an airport, encourages leaving out train journeys for 'special occasions' and makes the idea of daily commuting by rail unrealistic, so perhaps more centrally-located stations like this could do some good.

BIB - that would be why Stevenage gets about 2.5 million users a year, Harlow Town about 2.0 million, Basildon about 3.2 million a year and Crawley about 1.8 million a year - it's all "special journeys" and rail commuting is discouraged by the siting of the station......

The other point is that the New Towns also attracted employers, so the level of employment within the towns was higher than it was in the "older" towns nearby so commuting out of town was less common.

 

[AGH]

Liverpool South Parkway to JLA
- through old sidings then running elevated to the airport down the central reservation. Option to carry on and rejoin Liverpool branch of WCML passing between Speke and Hale.

Curve before Wallgate to connect all services through North Western

Curve between CLC route into Manchester to allow CLC trains to reach Victoria

Reinstate line from Glazebrook through Culceth but when it reaches Chat Moss line junction to allow turning both directions. Add in western exit from Trafford Park terminal and new route to WCML and allows cross over running between CLC and Chat Moss routes. Possible Warrington loop service via NLW.

Trafford centre through Trafford park to meet CLC at Trafford freight terminal. Quicker than circular route of tram. Uses some of the old rails through TP. Head north at other end to meet up with port Salford proposed line. Gives better access avoiding Manchester. 4 platform White City station provides interchange

Manchester airport western link. Been talked about and even planned but makes perfect sense.

Curve at Irlam to create loop with reopened Cadishead line.

 

[tetudo boy]

It would make sense to have a railway line following the Pennine part of the A57 via Snake pass, which may essentially just be an extension of the Glossop line. It could solve a few problems that the hope valley line is dealing with such as the capacity and the awkward switchback at Sheffield. Speaking of Sheffield, A new terminus (possibly underground, seeing as the city centre is there) just west of the current station would help, with turnoff's both going north to Doncaster and south to the Midland mainline. I'm not sure it's realistic, though.

If I could improve Merseyside's underwhelming network, we would be here forever...

 

[Metrolink]

Divert the WCML at Oxenholme via Kendal & Windemere, with new section (much in tunnels) to rejoin WCML near Penrith..
(Old alignment retained for freight)

I can’t help but think that some of the ideas on this forum are suggesting adding new lines through the countryside. And I’m aware that this is a speculative thread, yet for me any of the ideas like this one, is daft. Running 125+ mph trains through a national park and then through costly tunnels, for the benefit of shaving off hardly any time. I don’t think the residents of Windermere and the surrounding area would be happy about this.

 

[tetudo boy]

I can’t help but think that some of the ideas on this forum are suggesting adding new lines through the countryside. And I’m aware that this is a speculative thread, yet for me any of the ideas like this one, is daft. Running 125+ mph trains through a national park and then through costly tunnels, for the benefit of shaving off hardly any time. I don’t think the residents of Windermere and the surrounding area would be happy about this.

It is indeed a risky decision to run a line through the countryside, but Britain is full of them, and sometime's you can't help but throw in a rail line there. You are making a point, though.

 

[Metrolink]

It is indeed a risky decision to run a line through the countryside, but Britain is full of them, and sometime's you can't help but throw in a rail line there. You are making a point, though.

It is risky and Britain is full of them. The difference is that they are for the communities surrounding their frequency is low on most lines with exceptions. But running HS2 through the Lake District is a risk too far.

 

[route101]

One id like to see in Scotland, is a connection from East Kilbride to Hamilton, linking up with Motherwell and beyond.

 

[Ianno87]

High speed trains are good at climbing hills. Much cheaper to quadrify Shap than to tunnel underneath.

High speed trains are good at climbing hills on a high speed alignment, where the momentum of the train compensates for the gradient

 

[Greybeard33]

High speed trains are good at climbing hills on a high speed alignment, where the momentum of the train compensates for the gradient

But also high speed trains have a higher power to weight ratio than conventional EMUs, to overcome the increased aerodynamic drag (e.g. TGVs 20-25kW/t). Therefore the balancing speed on an upgrade is higher.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

It would make sense to have a railway line following the Pennine part of the A57 via Snake pass, which may essentially just be an extension of the Glossop line.

Really?! Would either need a tunnel almost rivaling those under the Swiss Alps in length, or alternatively the only rack and pinion section of line on the GB network, with the possible exception of the one up Snowdon.

Snake Pass is some 1680 feet (510 metres) above sea level last time I checked.

 

[HSTEd]

Really?! Would either need a tunnel almost rivaling those under the Swiss Alps in length,

That's not particularly ridiculous, since numerous tunnels of that length exist, is it?

Snake Pass is some 1680 feet (510 metres) above sea level last time I checked.

And a modern railway can climb a 4% gradient, which means it could ascend from sea level in under 13 kilometers.

It is probably entirely possible to build a railway across the Pennines capable of high speeds without a single tunnel, just that political factors render it unacceptable to do so.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

As @tetudo boy asserts, it would "make sense".

Yeah right!

 

[HSTEd]

As @tetudo boy asserts, it would "make sense".

Yeah right!

Well if you decided you wanted a Manchester-Sheffield new line, which I think makes some degree of sense, Snake Pass is the obvious route to build one.

Given that it is the shortest alignment.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

And a modern railway can climb a 4% gradient, which means it could ascend from sea level in under 13 kilometers.

Can a modern railway cope with a 6% - 8% gradient which is not untypical on the way up the Snake Pass from the Glossop side of the hill?

Can't help but think that just about any other new GB railway scheme would be better value for money than this would ever be.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

How about a new 125mph line straight up the Lune valley from Lancaster, rejoining the WCML at Low Gill? This would bypass the slow, twisty part of the WCML between Oxenholme and Low Gill and so improve England - Scotland journey times, particularly for non-tilt HS2 CC trains. (It might be possible to reuse parts of the disused branch line alignments at either end of this route, but there has never been a through line all along the valley).

Good idea!

No.
Divert the WCML at Oxenholme via Kendal & Windemere, with new section (much in tunnels) to rejoin WCML near Penrith..
(Old alignment retained for freight)

Going via Windemere makes the route longer and less direct.

 

[Mikey C]

A railway over Snake Pass would be grim in winter, as one of the country's most exposed and dangerous roads...

 

[Metrolink]

Can a modern railway cope with a 6% - 8% gradient which is not untypical on the way up the Snake Pass from the Glossop side of the hill?

Can't help but think that just about any other new GB railway scheme would be better value for money than this would ever be.

A railway over Snake Pass would be grim in winter, as one of the country's most exposed and dangerous roads...

I have to agree. To all those pro-Snake Pass line, what’s so bad about the Hope valley line, other than the odd capacity issue?

 

[tetudo boy]

Really?! Would either need a tunnel almost rivaling those under the Swiss Alps in length, or alternatively the only rack and pinion section of line on the GB network, with the possible exception of the one up Snowdon.

Snake Pass is some 1680 feet (510 metres) above sea level last time I checked.

A friendly reminder that the Huddersfield line and Hope Valley line's have tunnel's which are long but don't take up all of the lines.

I have to agree. To all those pro-Snake Pass line, what’s so bad about the Hope valley line, other than the odd capacity issue?

There's no problem with it. I just think that the Snake pass route would be a better choice, seeing as it's a more direct route.

 

[Tobbes]

A friendly reminder that the Huddersfield line and Hope Valley line's have tunnel's which are long but don't take up all of the lines.


There's no problem with it. I just think that the Snake pass route would be a better choice, seeing as it's a more direct route.

Presumably Snake Pass base tunnel would be shorter and straighter, and as a 200kmh passenger only line you could have real time savings vs the mixed traffic route of the Hope Valley.

 

[Metrolink]

Why should the government spend millions on brand new lines such as this one, to make it quicker than the existing line? It doesn’t make any sense. Manchester has a sufficient service to Sheffield and vice versa.

 

[Tobbes]

Why should the government spend millions on brand new lines such as this one, to make it quicker than the existing line? It doesn’t make any sense. Manchester has a sufficient service to Sheffield and vice versa.

Partly politics (NPR, rebalanced the economy) and partly because it is presumably hard to get that improvement out of the existing route.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Why should the government waste billions spend millions on brand new lines such as this one, to make it quicker than the existing line? It doesn’t make any sense. Manchester has a sufficient service to Sheffield and vice versa.

Fixed that for you. Otherwise fully agree with you.

 

[Metrolink]

Fixed that for you. Otherwise fully agree with you.

Oh yes my bad, billions.

 

[martinsh]

How about Kidderminster to Stourport via a north - west curve at Hartlebury ? There doesn't appear to be anything in the way of the curve, and the trackbed is more or less clear as far as Stourport. Finding a station site in the town might be problematical though. As for service, you could extend the Kidderminster terminators.

 

[tbtc]

To all those pro-Snake Pass line, what’s so bad about the Hope valley line, other than the odd capacity issue?

I'm not pro-Snake Pass (for a start, how is it going to serve Sheffield? The western end would be fine, since you have the existing line from Manchester to Glossop but... are you going to knock down chunks of Hillsborough and approach down the Rivelin Valley? Complete non-starter) but the existing Hope Valley line means that trains between the two city centres take just short of an hour to cover around thirty miles as the crow flies - pretty poor considering the size of the two cities. Plus, you've got the capacity problems through Dore, the slow freight, the flat junctions... there's a lot of focus on Leeds - Manchester but not much on the Sheffield line.

You could certainly run longer trains on the Sheffield - Stockport - Manchester bit of the route, but I suppose there are problems with the fact that the services also serve stations to the east/west that may not be able to accommodate much longer trains

Why should the government spend millions on brand new lines such as this one, to make it quicker than the existing line? It doesn’t make any sense. Manchester has a sufficient service to Sheffield and vice versa.

You've hit upon one of the Forum's main reactions. Building lines is great as long as they follow the paths of old routes (Something Something Beeching Something). But trying to solve problems by building on new alignments is a definite no-no.

For example, it's fine to suggest building a Sheffield - Manchester line via Woodhead (because that's an ancient line) but there seems a lot of hostility to the idea of building a Sheffield - Manchester route via Snake Pass (because that'd be a brand new alignment - at least in the middle section).

I'm not in favour of this Snake Pass suggestion but I'm sure that there'd be a lot more people on here in favour of it if there was a Victorian entrepreneur who went bankrupt after his SSMR (Sheffield Snake Manchester Railway) proved to be a financial disaster, or if Beeching had closed a Snake Pass route in the 1960s - then it'd regularly feature along with the other dozen lines that are always brought up for re-opening.

But then, if HS2 followed the GC route then a lot of the people who are against it at the moment would suddenly be in favour... funny.

 

[tetudo boy]

for a start, how is it going to serve Sheffield? The western end would be fine, since you have the existing line from Manchester to Glossop but... are you going to knock down chunks of Hillsborough and approach down the Rivelin Valley? Complete non-starter

Sheffield: I explained earlier that there could be an underground station either in the city centre or at least somewhere slightly west of the city centre. I also mentioned that there could also be two rail exit's, one at Castlegate for trains going north, and the other one near Lowfield for trains going south. This essentially solves the awkward switchback at Nottingham on the Liverpool to Nottingham/Norwich service.

Concern's about infrastructure: Like with the Hope Valley and Huddersfield line's, it is possible for the line to have tunnel's along the line (not too many though), so there is no need to knock down much and to have large gradient's.

Yes, the idea of a Snake pass line is rarely talked about and it does seem slightly unrealistic, but it could do a few favours.