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EU forces Dutch Government to stop flight cap at Schiphol

YorkRailFan

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From Reuters: AMSTERDAM, Nov 14 (Reuters) - Facing pressure from the U.S. government and the European Union, the Dutch government on Tuesday gave up on a plan to cap the maximum number of flights at Amsterdam's Schiphol airport next summer, calling the decision "a bitter pill".

The decision is a victory for the airline industry including Air France-KLM's (AIRF.PA) Dutch subsidiary, and U.S. airlines including Delta (DAL.N) and JetBlue (JBLU.O), which had opposed the cap - and a loss for environmentalist and resident groups living near Schiphol who had supported the cap."I emphasize that the cabinet is still committed to restoring the balance between Schiphol and its environment," infrastructure minister Mark Harbers said in a letter to parliament. Harbers said the cabinet would continue to pursue the plan. It is not certain, however, that a new cabinet will have the same priorities after a national election on Nov. 22.

The plan to cap the number of flights at Schiphol, one of Europe's busiest hubs, at around 450,000 flights, or 10% below 2019 levels, had been primarily driven by the desire to cut noise pollution. It had also been cheered by environmentalists as needed to reduce carbon dioxide and nitrogen emissions.Opposition swelled this month after the Dutch slot coordinator announced costly cuts for airlines including KLM and exclusion for JetBlue, which began flying from Schiphol to New York and Boston this year.

That led the U.S. government on Nov. 3 to threaten retaliation if the Dutch went ahead with the plan, with the Department of Transportation calling it "unreasonable" and saying it violated the U.S.-EU Air Transport Agreement.Deputy U.S. Transportation Secretary Polly Trottenberg said it was the "right decision" by the Dutch to drop the plan and said the department would not move forward with any countermeasures, which JetBlue had asked for.

Harbers' letter to parliament said that after a U.S.-E.U. meeting on Nov. 13, European Commissioner for Transport Adina Valean had sent the Dutch government a letter expressing "serious concerns" about whether the cap had been properly vetted."The Netherlands has come to stand alone" on the cap policy, Harbers said, adding that it will now await a Supreme Court ruling and further European Commission feedback expected next year.

"This is a heavy setback, but the number of flights must be lowered in order to make the Netherlands livable and to tackle the climate crisis," Greenpeace said in reaction. "Voters can express their opinion about that next week."Several airlines welcomed the decision, with "SkyTeam" partners KLM and Delta saying they remain committed to flying more quietly and sustainably "without reducing capacity." JetBlue said its entry at Schiphol had lowered fares and urged governments to continue to ensure it has access.

Industry group Airlines for America thanked the U.S. government, saying its discussions with the EU had been "instrumental to persuading the Dutch government to this successful outcome."

Reporting by Toby Sterling and Bart H. Meijer in the Netherlands and David Shepardson in Washington; Editing by Emelia Sithole-Matarise, Jonathan Oatis and Grant McCool
Article link: https://www.reuters.com/business/ae...-plan-cut-number-flights-schiphol-2023-11-14/

Great for passengers and for airlines. I think that If Schiphol is to limit flights, they should copy what France has done with not allowing airlines to sell tickets on flights where a train journey under 2 hours is possible, this would limit flights to Belgium, Luxembourg, parts of Germany and France.
 
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Deerfold

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Gaelan

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flights to Belgium, Luxembourg, parts of Germany and France
Wait, who the hell is flying Amsterdam to Brussels? Looking at random dates, the cheapest flights are £167 return whereas Eurostar ranges £50-£120 (with plenty of availability towards the cheaper end); a 45 minute flight also seems likely to be slower, door-to-door, than a 2-hour flight. Each city has direct trains to the others' airport, too, so it's quite practical to connect from a long-haul flight too.

Yet somehow KLM has enough demand for four daily departures! Does anyone know why?
 

Chester1

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Wait, who the hell is flying Amsterdam to Brussels? Looking at random dates, the cheapest flights are £167 return whereas Eurostar ranges £50-£120 (with plenty of availability towards the cheaper end); a 45 minute flight also seems likely to be slower, door-to-door, than a 2-hour flight. Each city has direct trains to the others' airport, too, so it's quite practical to connect from a long-haul flight too.

Yet somehow KLM has enough demand for four daily departures! Does anyone know why?

It will be mostly Belgians connecting for long haul flights at Schiphol.
 

Chester1

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Ah, right - and quite likely a through-booked flight will be cheaper than a flight plus a Thalys.

The passenger won't take the financial risk connecting and need to move luggage for less time too.

The Schiphol noise and pollution problem is the downside of having multiple runways. Heathrow and Gatwick have an effective unofficial cap because they are full!
 

chipbury

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I’ve flow the Brussels/Amsterdam route several times (connecting to Bristol) since the direct Bristol/Brussels route was cancelled (2019?).
 

YorkRailFan

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Wait, who the hell is flying Amsterdam to Brussels? Looking at random dates, the cheapest flights are £167 return whereas Eurostar ranges £50-£120 (with plenty of availability towards the cheaper end); a 45 minute flight also seems likely to be slower, door-to-door, than a 2-hour flight. Each city has direct trains to the others' airport, too, so it's quite practical to connect from a long-haul flight too.

Yet somehow KLM has enough demand for four daily departures! Does anyone know why?
People connecting at AMS for long haul flights with KLM.
 

AlastairFraser

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Article link: https://www.reuters.com/business/ae...-plan-cut-number-flights-schiphol-2023-11-14/

Great for passengers and for airlines. I think that If Schiphol is to limit flights, they should copy what France has done with not allowing airlines to sell tickets on flights where a train journey under 2 hours is possible, this would limit flights to Belgium, Luxembourg, parts of Germany and France.
I think a minimum average load factor would be a good idea as a metric long term.
It would force airlines to reduce ticket prices to fill underutilised services, making travel more affordable for those that do and potentially lead to cancellation of flights on routes that are too frequently served.
 

YorkRailFan

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I think a minimum average load factor would be a good idea as a metric long term.
It would force airlines to reduce ticket prices to fill underutilised services, making travel more affordable for those that do and potentially lead to cancellation of flights on routes that are too frequently served.
I think that some short flights where a train journey of around 2 hours should be allowed (as they are in France), to allow for those who have connecting flights at hubs.

Wonder if this will spark a movement campaigning for "Nexit"? :lol:
Don't give them ideas!
 

Krokodil

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Heathrow and Gatwick have an effective unofficial cap because they are full!
Is the third runway at Heathrow now dead? I've heard little since a judge lifted the prohibition.

I think that some short flights where a train journey of around 2 hours should be allowed (as they are in France), to allow for those who have connecting flights at hubs.
No. The environmental impact of a short-haul flight is exactly the same whether it's filled with short-haul passengers or long-haul passengers who are connecting. Instead the airlines should enter into code-sharing agreements with Eurostar (thinking specifically of the former Thalys services for Paris and Brussels, but I see no reason to exclude London). It's been done in a number of countries.
 

atillathehunn

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Article link: https://www.reuters.com/business/ae...-plan-cut-number-flights-schiphol-2023-11-14/

Great for passengers and for airlines. I think that If Schiphol is to limit flights, they should copy what France has done with not allowing airlines to sell tickets on flights where a train journey under 2 hours is possible, this would limit flights to Belgium, Luxembourg, parts of Germany and France.
While I agree in principle, I think this post is written by someone who has not tried to get very far from Schiphol within two hours.

A two hour threshold does not buy you very many restrictions at Schiphol. In fact, just one that is currently served by flights.

Germany: ICE trains don't call at Schiphol, The fastest train from Amsterdam Centraal to Dusseldorf is about 2 hours 10 minutes, and that doesn't account for the train from Schiphol and a small connection allowance for the ICE train.

Belgium: Thalys does stop at Schiphol, bringing Brussels within the two hour frame - it's about 90 minutes. However, KLM/AF offer rail&fly from Brussels and it hasn't killed off direct flights between Amsterdam and Brussels.

Luxembourg: Not even close. It's 90 minutes to Brussels, followed by about 3-3.5 hours on the IC train from Brussels to Luxembourg.

While I try to avoid it where possible, I have flown these micro-flights from Brussels/Dusseldorf to Amsterdam to connect on KLM out of Schiphol. I have also used the rail&fly service from Brussels to Amsterdam and Paris. I prefer the train, of course, but this is not always practical or even offered.
 

YorkRailFan

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While I agree in principle, I think this post is written by someone who has not tried to get very far from Schiphol within two hours.

A two hour threshold does not buy you very many restrictions at Schiphol. In fact, just one that is currently served by flights.

Germany: ICE trains don't call at Schiphol, The fastest train from Amsterdam Centraal to Dusseldorf is about 2 hours 10 minutes, and that doesn't account for the train from Schiphol and a small connection allowance for the ICE train.

Belgium: Thalys does stop at Schiphol, bringing Brussels within the two hour frame - it's about 90 minutes. However, KLM/AF offer rail&fly from Brussels and it hasn't killed off direct flights between Amsterdam and Brussels.

Luxembourg: Not even close. It's 90 minutes to Brussels, followed by about 3-3.5 hours on the IC train from Brussels to Luxembourg.

While I try to avoid it where possible, I have flown these micro-flights from Brussels/Dusseldorf to Amsterdam to connect on KLM out of Schiphol. I have also used the rail&fly service from Brussels to Amsterdam and Paris. I prefer the train, of course, but this is not always practical or even offered.
I suspect that if a France style ban on flights is introduced, it would be from the city's main railway station (in this case Amsterdam Centraal) meaning that some destinations could be reached, and the cap could be extended up to 3 hours reaching Dusseldorf.

No. The environmental impact of a short-haul flight is exactly the same whether it's filled with short-haul passengers or long-haul passengers who are connecting. Instead the airlines should enter into code-sharing agreements with Eurostar (thinking specifically of the former Thalys services for Paris and Brussels, but I see no reason to exclude London). It's been done in a number of countries.
Air France-KLM has an existing rail/air partnership with Eurostar (formerly Thalys) and DB joined Star Alliance to allow codeshares with Lufthansa.
 

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No. The environmental impact of a short-haul flight is exactly the same whether it's filled with short-haul passengers or long-haul passengers who are connecting. Instead the airlines should enter into code-sharing agreements with Eurostar (thinking specifically of the former Thalys services for Paris and Brussels, but I see no reason to exclude London). It's been done in a number of countries.
Slower and less convenient connections and the consequent longer overall journey times mean many passengers will just avoid KLM.
 

Krokodil

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Slower and less convenient connections and the consequent longer overall journey times mean many passengers will just avoid KLM.
What will their alternatives be if short-haul connecting flights are banned? Surely the only choices will be:

a) find a direct flight to Brussels, where available
b) connect on the other side to/from a direct flight to Brussels
c) connect by train

It wasn't KLM who stopped the proposal to cap flights at Schiphol, so clearly they don't have as much influence as the noise abatement lobby. It was the Americans who kicked off.
 

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What will their alternatives be if short-haul connecting flights are banned? Surely the only choices will be:

a) find a direct flight to Brussels, where available
b) connect on the other side to/from a direct flight to Brussels
c) connect by train
d) connect instead at other hubs like Vienna, London, Zurich, Frankfurt, Munich, etc - very likely.

Journey times do talk.
 

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I think that start with 2 hours and gradually expand it to 2.5 hours and then 3 hours.

Looks like we will be safe for the foreseeable future in Scotland then as 3 hours won't even get you to Birmingham from Edinburgh or Glasgow never mind Inverness or Aberdeen.
 

paul1609

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Wait, who the hell is flying Amsterdam to Brussels? Looking at random dates, the cheapest flights are £167 return whereas Eurostar ranges £50-£120 (with plenty of availability towards the cheaper end); a 45 minute flight also seems likely to be slower, door-to-door, than a 2-hour flight. Each city has direct trains to the others' airport, too, so it's quite practical to connect from a long-haul flight too.

Yet somehow KLM has enough demand for four daily departures! Does anyone know why?
The Nato headquarters in Brussels is across the E40 (think M25) 3 miles from Brussels Airport or alternatively up to an hour in a taxi to Brussels Midi. Governments arent paying the public fares.
 

Acfb

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It does seem silly and a waste of capacity that Brussels-Amsterdam flights exist when there is a direct rail link to Schiphol airport even taking account of connections. The same is true of Frankfurt-Düsseldorf/Stuttgart flights when it is possible to travel from Frankfurt Airport to those places in 1.5 hours by train.
 

YorkRailFan

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It does seem silly and a waste of capacity that Brussels-Amsterdam flights exist when there is a direct rail link to Schiphol airport even taking account of connections. The same is true of Frankfurt-Düsseldorf/Stuttgart flights when it is possible to travel from Frankfurt Airport to those places in 1.5 hours by train.
It's simply for passengers to connect at hubs, like Schiphol and Frankfurt, onto long haul flights.
 

Gaelan

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It's simply for passengers to connect at hubs, like Schiphol and Frankfurt, onto long haul flights.
Yes, but (in a properly integrated transport network) Brussels Midi - Schiphol Airport - [somewhere long-haul] would work just as well as Brussels Airport - Schiphol Airport - [somewhere long-haul]. There's no reason for both to exist.

Indeed, checking Google Flights, trying to book Brussels - Seattle offers me both the Eurostar/Thalys to Schiphol and the TGV to CDG. They're quite competitive time-wise with the flight options, presumably because the trains are more frequent, allowing tighter connections. The prices seem largely comparable as well.
 

YorkRailFan

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Yes, but (in a properly integrated transport network) Brussels Midi - Schiphol Airport - [somewhere long-haul] would work just as well as Brussels Airport - Schiphol Airport - [somewhere long-haul]. There's no reason for both to exist.

Indeed, checking Google Flights, trying to book Brussels - Seattle offers me both the Eurostar/Thalys to Schiphol and the TGV to CDG. They're quite competitive time-wise with the flight options, presumably because the trains are more frequent, allowing tighter connections. The prices seem largely comparable as well.
Air France-KLM has a codeshare agreement with Thalys (now Eurostar), which is why you can book those trains on Google Flights. I think that airline loyalty programs could be an issue, meaning that people would rather spend miles on these flights than pay for a train.
 

Gaelan

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Air France-KLM has a codeshare agreement with Thalys (now Eurostar), which is why you can book those trains on Google Flights. I think that airline loyalty programs could be an issue, meaning that people would rather spend miles on these flights than pay for a train.
KLM's site claims miles are earned as normal.
 

Gaelan

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On Thalys/Eurostar?

Yes:
Do I earn Flying Blue Miles when travelling by Eurostar to Schiphol?

Yes, you do! You earn Miles for every trip! Simply provide your Flying Blue number at the time of booking. You can also earn Miles when you spend on extra options such as more comfortable seating, an extra baggage allowance, or “A la Carte” dining.

Attention: your train trip must be displayed on your Air France or KLM ticket.

For more information about Flying Blue, click here.
 

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