Citybreak1
Member
How long between trips can you visit the EU without a visa? I go away next week then February as I heard rules can change post Brexit?
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EU rules to travel
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StephenHunter
Established Member
It's 90 days in any 180 days:
cibtvisas.co.uk
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busestrains
On Moderation
Currently UK citizens can visit the Schengen area (which is all EU/EFTA/EEA countries except Ireland which you can visit unrestricted) for up to 90 days within any 180 days period.
You get passport stamps every time you enter the Schengen area and every time you exit the Schengen area and these are important as they tell the border control how many days you have used up.
Although from some time in 2023 all UK citizens will require visas to visit the EU/EFTA/EEA (Schengen) countries (except Ireland) and from some time in 2024 all EU/EFTA/EEA (Schengen) citizens (except Ireland) will require visas to visit the UK.
StephenHunter
Established Member
The "visa" is a waiver thing akin to the ESTA one for the United States - €7 for three years.
busestrains
On Moderation
It is still a visa even if they try and call it something different. It is just a simplified online visa or simplified e visa. If you have to apply for something and pay for something to visit a country than that is a visa.
As the saying goes "If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck." so this applies here.
All of these so called "travel authorisation" or "visa waiver" systems, eg, the USA ESTA, the Canada ETA, the Australia ETA or E Visitor, the New Zealand NZETA, the UK ETA, the EU Schengen ETIAS, etc, are all types of visas. You have to apply for them before travelling and pay for them. These governments just do not want to call them visas.
I am not sure why so many countries are introducing these. There is no need for them and they just make travel more difficult. Also i am not sure what happens for people without computers or smartphones or for people without bank accounts. I suppose they will have to go to the embassies and get a full visa.
The current arrangements work fine without them. Just turn up at the border and get stamped in and stamped out. This new ETIAS thing is going to make everything more difficult and discourage people from travelling abroad.
StephenHunter
Established Member
All the stamping causes delays though.
43096
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No bank account? How are they paying for their travel - cash? I don't believe that one.
busestrains
On Moderation
I am not sure it does. It takes one second to stamp a passport. It maybe adds one second extra. They have to look at your passport and look at your photo page anyway and verify that you are that person and that surely takes up more time than stamping it.
Anyway is this new ETIAS visa thing actually getting rid of stamping? Even with the ETIAS visa you are still only allowed 90 days within 180 days so surely they will still have to stamp it every time you enter and every time you exit?
johncrossley
Established Member
The stamping will be removed as part of the Entry Exit System, which is separate from the travel authorisation scheme.
I spent 15 minutes stood at immigration in Gdánsk last month while the officer sat looking at four pages of stamps trying to work out how many days I'd been in the Schengen area.
Not helped by some countries just stamping wherever (including the Czech Republic which stamped the back page for some reason)
StephenHunter
Established Member
At Munich airport going out last year, the officer was confused as to where I'd entered the Schengen area, because I'd gone there via Eurostar and Nightjet.
busestrains
On Moderation
There are plenty of people without bank accounts. You can pay for your travel with cash. I do it all the time. All of the ferry ports take cash. Eurostar take cash at their stations. Most hotels take cash. Although it is less common there are still many people without bank accounts and if they are going to be introducing this ETIAS visa they really need to have a facility to pay cash. Although i suspect it will mean having to go to the embassy and get a full visa to pay cash.
It gives them as much time as they like to decide whether to let you in or not, rather than having to make a decision on the spot.
(Of course in most if not all countries all the visa does is give you the right to get as far as the passport desk - they can still chuck you out at that point if they want).
busestrains
On Moderation
How will that work then? Without stamps how will they know how long you have spent in the Schengen area?
It's quite amusing how different countries behave with the stamping. Latvia, Poland, Germany, etc will ask all of the questions and neatly stamp in the right place.
France, Spain, Netherlands just blindly stamp wherever without a word. I had to collar an immigration officer at St Pancras a couple of weeks ago as he'd done such a bad job stamping that you couldn't see any date on it.
busestrains
On Moderation
But most of these "travel authorisation" or "visa waiver" visa things are instant from what i hear. So it seems to be mainly automatic. So i am not sure there is actually anyone reviewing your information and checking on whether they would like to let you in or not. I reckon it is just a way for these countries to make more money.
johncrossley
Established Member
Your passport will be scanned every time you enter and exit.
Peterthegreat
Established Member
That is NOT correct. Bulgaria, Romania and Croatia are not currently in the Schengen area.
Your entries and exits will be recorded in a central database, and that database will be the definitive source of information regarding entries and exits. The concept is not new - Australia has been doing it for over a decade, for one - but the EU system is complicated by the scale of the rollout and the number of stakeholders involved.
It is mainly automatic, and there's never been any intent from an operator of any of these systems that every applicant would be reviewed. The upfront part of the process is a usually along the lines of a simple check against immigration records, some forms of criminal records, and potentially also some sources of security intelligence. Remember though that even after approval has been given, the immigration service is able to use the time between issuing approval and the passenger's actual presentation at the border to conduct further checks - so in effect it allows states to perform more comprehensive evaluation of intending travellers without going so far as to require a formal visa, or a much-more-intensive interview at the point of entry.
43096
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Define “plenty”.
Ah, the forum special of a situation where a tiny number of people do something in a very niche way and expect the world to stop because they want it to.
Only my experience obviously, but I've been into/out of the Schengen area about 10 times since the end of the transition period and haven't noticed any particular increase in the length of time it takes to get through border control. Previously the officer would look at the passport, look at me, stick the passport under their reader and then give it back to me and send me on my way. Just the same now, but before they hand it back they stamp it. Takes a second or two longer.
I've never seen any of them count the days on the stamps. Only twice have I even been asked any questions, contrary to all the stories about people being given the third degree about where they're going, how long for, for what reason, can you prove you have enough funds etc. None of that. I've been asked twice how long I'm staying for, and in one of those instances I was asked for the purpose of my visit as well. I just said "holiday" and they were happy with that.
On the way out they've cared even less. Just stamp it and off you go.
I've never seen any of them count the days on the stamps. Only twice have I even been asked any questions, contrary to all the stories about people being given the third degree about where they're going, how long for, for what reason, can you prove you have enough funds etc. None of that. I've been asked twice how long I'm staying for, and in one of those instances I was asked for the purpose of my visit as well. I just said "holiday" and they were happy with that.
On the way out they've cared even less. Just stamp it and off you go.
It's probably an unlikely scenario for someone from the UK, but cash is still very much king in a lot of European countries. Whilst it's admittedly improbable for someone to make an international trip using purely cash, these "not a visa" authorisation schemes don't sit with me quite right.
But they do have the power to do that to you now, even if you've not experienced it. I've had a bunch of different levels of questioning across ten years of coming and going from the Schengen zone on an Australian passport, for example.
(though I feel it must be said that at none of the Schengen entries was I ever questioned to the same extent that I consistently was by British border agents)
My understanding is that these travel authorisation schemes serve two purposes for the destination country.
1. They give the government of a destination country the opertinuity to look the traveller up in various databases. While some people do get their authorisations near-instantly others can take significantly longer. Presumbablly because there was a database hit or because the person answered one of the eligability questions in a way that may indicate ineligibility.
2. They put certain categories of undesirable person in zugzwang. If the undesirable person tells the truth then the authorisation is likely to get denied. If the undesirable person lies and gets caught lying that is potentially grounds for harsher treatment than the original undesirable behaviour would in itself of merited.
AlbertBeale
Established Member
There are countries in the EU which are not in the Schengen zone, and countries in Schengen which are not in the EU....
Ireland isn't in Schengen; travel between UK and Ireland (and Isle of Man and Channel Islands) is a separate Common Travel Area system.
The Schengen visa (and ETIAS "visa waiver") apply to the Schengen area rather than to the EU; but those holding a passport of an EU member state (including ones outside Schengen) are exempt from needing one. Hence if the UK was still in the EU, we wouldn't need to use the visa waiver system, despite being outside the Schengen zone.
Even if you do have a bank account (as I do), you might still choose to pay for things in cash; I often buy tickets using cash.
Specifically such countries fall into two categories.
The first category is countries that have negotiated opt-outs from Schengen, currently this is only the Republic of Ireland. Prior to Brexit the UK was also in this category. Brits can travel and work freely in the republic of Ireland and citizens of the Republic of Ireland can travel and work freely in the UK under agreements that predate the UK and ROI joining the EU.
The second is countries that are technically bound by treaty to join the Schengen area but for various reasons have not joined it yet. This includes, Croatia, Romania, Bulgaria and the Republic of Cyprus. While not yet members of the Schengen area the border policies of these countries are closely aligned to Schengen, they accept multiple entry Schengen visas and they will apprently require ETIAS when it rolls out.
Perhaps.
But I would still expect few countries to see people too poor to have a bank account as desirable visitors.
Indeed, if the UK was still in the EU they would (with very narrow exceptions) be bound to let us in, whether they want us or not. In the same way we were bound to let them in whether we wanted them or not.
That is gone now, the EU (other than Ireland) are free to exclude undesirables from the UK and we are free to exclude undesirables from the EU (other than Ireland)
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OldandRambling
Member
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I don't think the post above is correct.
While one pays for an ESTA to get permission to travel to the USA, it clearly is not a visa. The immigration officer at the border grants entry, the ESTA does not guarantee admission. A "visa" proper, permits entry to a country. (That's my understanding, for what it is worth.)
AIUI a US border gaurd can still deny entry to someone with a proper US visa. However with a proper visa it is possible to appeal the entry denial to a Judge whereas if travelling under the Visa Waiver programme with an ESTA you lose that right of appeal.
I am sure that's right. A US visa (and I don't think they are unusual in that) merely gives you the right to present yourself at immigration for the decision to be made on whether to grant entry.
Now most of these "permisson to enter the country" schemes aren't called visas and quite possibly in a technical sense aren't. But since you're paying to request permission to enter a country, so far as I can see they are a visa to all intents and purposes.
So far as I know the US scheme (ESTA) is no longer instant. And I'm sure most if not all of them will have systems which trigger a manual review in some cases.
As for it just being a money-making scheme (as with countries which sell "visas" at the border), I suspect over time some people will discover otherwise as they either don't get an instant response when they were relying on one, or get turned down and required to apply for a full visa - either for genuine reasons or because of a false match with a database.
Not sure where expecting the world to stop comes into it. If you're in the 1% that needs to do something differently, being told that the other 99% are OK isn't much help. (It would save a lot of money if we stopped making wheelchair provision on public transport - should we do that because only a tiny fraction of the population benefit?)
It does seem a shame though that travel through Europe is getting much harder, at least for those of us in the UK. Go back a few decades and you could just get a (cheap) British Visitor's Passport from a post office on the spot which would get you as far as Greece (not even in the EU at the time). Now it's a large amount of money and possibly a few weeks, possibly much more, for a passport you need even just to go to France.
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