EU rules to travel

[AdamWW]

EU citizens have unstampable ID cards, which are no longer accepted for entry into the UK. Presumably being unstampable (and therefore period of stay rules uncheckable) is the main reason for this [other than the the EU not agreeing to not stamp UK identity documents [aka passports] going into the EU, so a quid pro quo].

You may be right.

My understanding is however that the UK chose not to accept them because the level of forged ID cards is much higher than for passports.

I also think that we already have a system running to track length of entry electronically rather than using stamps - at any rate I'm pretty sure I've seen signs in airports saying that US citizens can use passport gates on entry to the UK and do not need to then get their passport stamped apart from in particular circumstances.

 

[Chester1]

Such an offer would be meaningless, so wasn't an option.


EU citizens have unstampable ID cards, which are no longer accepted for entry into the UK. Presumably being unstampable (and therefore period of stay rules uncheckable) is the main reason for this [other than the the EU not agreeing to not stamp UK identity documents [aka passports] going into the EU, so a quid pro quo].


Or the EU winning a tit-for-tat game against a country that has dared to leave?

You may be right.

My understanding is however that the UK chose not to accept them because the level of forged ID cards is much higher than for passports.

I also think that we already have a system running to track length of entry electronically rather than using stamps - at any rate I'm pretty sure I've seen signs in airports saying that US citizens can use passport gates on entry to the UK and do not need to then get their passport stamped apart from in particular circumstances.

Its not just US citizens that can use UK e gates, its EU Citizens, other EEA nationals, Australians, Canadians, New Zealanders, South Koreans, Singaporeans and Japanese citizens. They only need passport stamps if they are entering the UK for first time at start of a work / study visa.

The forgery issue will likely be resolved by 2031 at the latest when all old ID cards will have expired. By that point both EES, ETIAS and UK ETA will have settled in, UK may have an equivalent to EES and Ireland may have its own systems too.

I might be wrong but I think the EU offered reciprocal ID card entry but the UK wasn't interested. That is unsurprising when we don't have ID cards and the offer was all or nothing. If UK had accepted it would have had to accept all EU ID cards and could not have just accepted biometric cards.

I think there is merit towards end of decade of copying Irish Passport cards but allowing them to be issued without a linked passport. For many people it would be sufficient and cheaper than a passport. A full passport shouldn't be necessary to travel to the EU but the minimum should be a biometric national ID card or passport card.

 

[edwin_m]

Edit: I think the long term intention is to do partial fingerprint scans at e gates. Passport photos are already compared with photo taken by e gates.

I've been through fingerprinting scans on entry and exit of several Middle Eastern countries recently. It can take several minutes per person, and the halls where it takes place are far bigger than the passport booths in airports, let alone the tiny spaces in Eurostar terminals.

 

[biko]

My experience is of being questioned more often than not both on entrance and exit, with the questioning on entry being quite detailed - why I was visiting, how long for, where I'd be staying, when I'd leave the EU and how I'd be travelling back.

I've read this a few times now and I'm quite surprised that this didn't happen before Brexit. As a EU citizen I've been questioned at all my entries to the UK, all of which were before or during the transition period (ok, except the one time I travelled in a car on the ferry). No idea why UK citizens weren't questioned upon entering Schengen, but it seems like it was already allowed/possible.

 

[XAM2175]

As I understand it a passport is not required to enter the Republic of Ireland from GB, although individual transport operators may insist on passengers carrying ID and only accept passports as that ID.

For the sake of completeness: the CTA explicitly provides this only for British and Irish citizens, and even then persons availing themselves of that provision must be able to satisfactorily prove that they hold that nationality if a border officer should require it. Third-country nationals are officially required to present themselves to the Garda or Irish Naturalisation and Immigration Service for clearance when entering the Republic from elsewhere in the CTA, even Northern Ireland.

I think there is merit towards end of decade of copying Irish Passport cards but allowing them to be issued without a linked passport. For many people it would be sufficient and cheaper than a passport. A full passport shouldn't be necessary to travel to the EU but the minimum should be a biometric national ID card or passport card.

Yes, I agree - although of course this is probably the direction that passports overall will head in time anyway, as both stamps and physical visas fall out of use around the world.

 

[johncrossley]

Even UK citizens have long been heavily questioned by UK border staff. Obviously if you are not white or if you are mixed race (like myself) you can expect to be taken aside for further questioning and even strip searched. That has never happened to me entering any other country.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Wouldn't it be nice if all the nations of Europe including the British Isles could group together, have a common travel area where all this bureaucracy isn't necessary and the checks can be made on those entering Europe? Pity no-one's thought of that, a union of Europe would be the best way forward I reckon.

Actually, a "union" of Europe isn't necessary for countries to co-operate in all sorts of ways, including things like a common travel area or shared border requirements. Agreements between countries, over all sort of things, have happened and can still happen (in Europe and elsewhere) by agreement, without an international "higher authority".

 

[Chester1]

Actually, a "union" of Europe isn't necessary for countries to co-operate in all sorts of ways, including things like a common travel area or shared border requirements. Agreements between countries, over all sort of things, have happened and can still happen (in Europe and elsewhere) by agreement, without an international "higher authority".

You are right but the union and higher authority is the main appeal. Few Brits travel abroad enough to make joining Schengen be genuinely useful to them. Close co-operation between nations doesn't have the same political appeal even when it has the same benefits e.g. Schengen being created separately to the EU and having non EU members.

A country that mostly consists of one big island is a natural passport territory. The UK border is complicated because of Ireland but that will likely be resolved in time by a united Ireland.

Schengen is a good idea for countries on the European mainland with land borders with each other. Outsourcing border control to other EU members and their long land borders (and Mediterranean) isn’t worth saving a few minutes the rare times the average person flys.

 

[busestrains]

I understand that there are other reasons why they have chosen to introduce the ETIAS system. But i still think making money is one of the reasons. If it was nothing to do with making money and entirely to do with knowing who is entering and preventing criminals from entering than they would not charge for it and they would make it free for all. It is just something that you apply for online so there is no reason at all to charge for it. So these governments are obviously trying to make some money out of it too.

 

[XAM2175]

But i still think making money is one of the reasons. If it was nothing to do with making money and entirely to do with knowing who is entering and preventing criminals from entering than they would not charge for it and they would make it free for all. It is just something that you apply for online so there is no reason at all to charge for it. So these governments are obviously trying to make some money out of it too.

Online systems cost money to develop and maintain, though.

Besides, you already pay per-use for all the other border operations that are "entirely to do with knowing who is entering and preventing criminals from entering" - you just don't see it because they're surcharges included in the fare.

 

[Chester1]

I understand that there are other reasons why they have chosen to introduce the ETIAS system. But i still think making money is one of the reasons. If it was nothing to do with making money and entirely to do with knowing who is entering and preventing criminals from entering than they would not charge for it and they would make it free for all. It is just something that you apply for online so there is no reason at all to charge for it. So these governments are obviously trying to make some money out of it too.

Online systems cost money to develop and maintain, though.

Besides, you already pay per-use for all the other border operations that are "entirely to do with knowing who is entering and preventing criminals from entering" - you just don't see it because they're surcharges included in the fare.

€7 does sound like the cost of processing applications divided by the number of applicants. A typical application will cost less but a complicated application that requires review by a person will cost vastly more than €7.

 

[Graham H]

I wonder how anyone can calculate (or even bother to) days you have been in the EU based on stamps randomly entered by border control. Just came back from Portugal, I watched the guy stamp me in and then out but I cannot see the stamps anywhere, they must ration ink ! On my wifes you can just make out the entry one, but not the date part, the exit one is on a totally different page. I assume the stamp is a token gesture and would like to think that scanning the passport actually provides a record on a data base.

 

[EAD]

This topic in some shape of form comes up regularly. The OP asked reasonable questions, and yet as so often there is so much conjecture that has no bearing on the actual law in the thread I don't know whether to laugh or cry (also some sensible and helpful replies). I have posted this already elsewhere but as a reminder, here is the law regarding Schengen entry for thrid country nationals, which now of course includes UK nationals: Other thread on EU entry.

Oh and on ID cards - the UK has long not liked them so has not stopped accepting them as is in its gift with Brexit (other than for those who validly used them for EUSS - that will be phased out though). To be clear the new EEA+ ones are biometric to a common standard so once all stock is those they contain the same essential information as the chip in your passport. On stamping and exit - UK does not do exit checks with limited exceptions - most traffic is via airports where there are none. It also does not do routine stamping other than for certain tiers of Visa - it is quite confusing for people as they need to know before the border if they need a stamp of not for the form of entry they presenting. For Schengen the stamps provide the physical proof of adherence with the 90/180 day rule so important to ensure it is done correctly - you are checked though against the Schengen Information System (SIS) and so there is a digital entry and exit too, which with ETIAS and EES will do away with the wet ink stamps and improve the information available and shared by SIS.

 

[XAM2175]

I wonder how anyone can calculate (or even bother to) days you have been in the EU based on stamps randomly entered by border control. Just came back from Portugal, I watched the guy stamp me in and then out but I cannot see the stamps anywhere, they must ration ink ! On my wifes you can just make out the entry one, but not the date part, the exit one is on a totally different page. I assume the stamp is a token gesture and would like to think that scanning the passport actually provides a record on a data base.

No, that's just that border post being a bit sloppy. The recording of the scan in databases has happened for years, but as the process for sharing the complete data between different states and agencies wasn't fully implemented the stamps provide a backstop for agencies and staff who for whatever reason can't query the full database.

 

[miklcct]

There are plenty of people without bank accounts. You can pay for your travel with cash. I do it all the time. All of the ferry ports take cash. Eurostar take cash at their stations. Most hotels take cash. Although it is less common there are still many people without bank accounts and if they are going to be introducing this ETIAS visa they really need to have a facility to pay cash. Although i suspect it will mean having to go to the embassy and get a full visa to pay cash.

It's definitely not the case in Sweden. With only cash you will struggle to even buy a train ticket.

Luckily UK hasn't gone to this step yet.

Even UK citizens have long been heavily questioned by UK border staff. Obviously if you are not white or if you are mixed race (like myself) you can expect to be taken aside for further questioning and even strip searched. That has never happened to me entering any other country.

I'm not a UK citizen so I can't comment on this. However, on most of my entries into the EU holding a non-EU passport, I have seldom been asked anything. The country which always ask me questions on entry is Finland, usually how long and where I will stay, and what I'm planning to do, and nothing further.

 

[edwin_m]

I wonder how anyone can calculate (or even bother to) days you have been in the EU based on stamps randomly entered by border control. Just came back from Portugal, I watched the guy stamp me in and then out but I cannot see the stamps anywhere, they must ration ink ! On my wifes you can just make out the entry one, but not the date part, the exit one is on a totally different page. I assume the stamp is a token gesture and would like to think that scanning the passport actually provides a record on a data base.

Had exactly the same flying into Lisbon last week, the stamps were virtually undetectable and I was all ready with a copy of the inbound boarding passes on departure (from Porto) to prove our entry date. But they just stamped it and didn't obviously check the five EU stamps I already have.

 

[Cloud Strife]

On the topic of ID cards:

I'm a dual Polish/British citizen, and I went to Ireland last month via the UK in both directions because of the lack of direct flights. I had quite an adventure with my Polish ID card:

- mandatory use of the Polish ID card to leave Poland.
- ID card used for boarding, with a cursory question ("are you resident in the UK?). I lied and said yes, out of idle curiosity.
- Presented my ID card at Luton, and the bloke at immigration was confused when he couldn't find me in the database. I played stupid by pretending not to know the rules, and then he figured out that I was probably a British citizen from the name and accent. He asked (very nicely, I must add) if I had my British passport on me, which I did. If I didn't have it, he said that they could still admit me, but that they'd need to get his boss to verify that I was a British citizen by checking some database that he didn't have access to.
- Polish ID used when boarding in Luton
- Polish ID used on arrival in Dublin. Quite shockingly, the Garda officer on arrival there assumed that I was there to work/was working, and she started a conversation about this! We had a laugh about it, but in hindsight: she wouldn't have asked that if I used my CTA rights. I thought about using my CTA rights by handing over my Polish driving licence which clearly states that I was born in the UK, but I wanted to get to the pub.
- Polish ID card denied for travel to the UK from Dublin (!). The agent claimed that they weren't acceptable, and even when I told her I was a dual citizen, she demanded to see a passport.
- no check on arrival in the UK.
- Polish ID card used for departure from Standard
- Polish ID used when arriving in Poland.

No idea why UK citizens weren't questioned upon entering Schengen, but it seems like it was already allowed/possible.

This was largely down to the UK not really complying with the spirit of FoM. Although, as a British citizen, I was definitely asked a few questions in the past, especially on the Slovenian-Croatian border.

Oh and on ID cards - the UK has long not liked them so has not stopped accepting them as is in its gift with Brexit

Much to my annoyance. It's so much easier to carry a plastic card than a booklet!

My understanding is however that the UK chose not to accept them because the level of forged ID cards is much higher than for passports.

The key issue here was that some EU countries (specifically Italy) had major issues with phasing out paper ID cards, and the EU was unwilling to let the UK only accept biometric ID cards. It could have been negotiated, but the UK didn't show any real interest in the topic. As it stands, it's still perfectly possible to fly into Ireland with an ID card, and then travel onwards to the UK without encountering any control and all with a standard ID card. My experience in Dublin Airport seems to have been the exception rather than the norm.

Even EU citizens are not guaranteed entry into Ireland.

Not guaranteed entry, but in practice, it's very difficult for Ireland to block an EU citizen from entering Ireland. It can only be done in very limited circumstance, and 'intent to breach UK immigration law' is not one of them.

Ryanair insists on a passport as ID to board.

EEA ID card is enough for UK-Ireland flights and reverse.

The checks the passport officers have to do if you're entering the EU are not quick, it's far more than just stamping the passport. Takes at least five minutes per person once all the questions about length of stay have been answered, existing passport stamps are checked and calculated alongside the usual scanning process.

This is not the case on most borders. I quite routinely travel using my British passport across the Schengen border, and very few countries bother with interrogating British citizens. Spain was one of the exceptions, but in general, they usually just stamp my passport after flicking through it. I have my Polish ID as a backup in case they whine about the stamps/overstays, although my passport (according to the stamps) normally shows that I'm in no man's land somewhere. I just checked, and currently, my passport thinks that I'm stuck on the Croatian/Slovenian border as I deliberately got stamped out of Croatia and then used my ID card to enter Slovenia.

Even with the new arrangements, it's not going to take more than a couple of minutes for most travellers.

 

[duesselmartin]

My German passport was never stamped entering or leaving the UK. Self scan and off you go. It must be technically possible to keep track of people with an ID card in the digital age.

 

[neilmc]

Brexit, the wonderful gift that keeps on giving! Jealous of my friend who has always lived in the UK but unearthed (not literally) an Irish grandparent and obtained an Irish passport so he doesn't have to worry about any of this nonsense.

 

[johncrossley]

Brexit, the wonderful gift that keeps on giving! Jealous of my friend who has always lived in the UK but unearthed (not literally) an Irish grandparent and obtained an Irish passport so he doesn't have to worry about any of this nonsense.

UK citizens still have the option of moving to Ireland and naturalising after 5 years.

 

[Sm5]

On the topic of ID cards:

I'm a dual Polish/British citizen, and I went to Ireland last month via the UK in both directions because of the lack of direct flights. I had quite an adventure with my Polish ID card:

- mandatory use of the Polish ID card to leave Poland.
- ID card used for boarding, with a cursory question ("are you resident in the UK?). I lied and said yes, out of idle curiosity.
- Presented my ID card at Luton, and the bloke at immigration was confused when he couldn't find me in the database. I played stupid by pretending not to know the rules, and then he figured out that I was probably a British citizen from the name and accent. He asked (very nicely, I must add) if I had my British passport on me, which I did. If I didn't have it, he said that they could still admit me, but that they'd need to get his boss to verify that I was a British citizen by checking some database that he didn't have access to.
- Polish ID used when boarding in Luton
- Polish ID used on arrival in Dublin. Quite shockingly, the Garda officer on arrival there assumed that I was there to work/was working, and she started a conversation about this! We had a laugh about it, but in hindsight: she wouldn't have asked that if I used my CTA rights. I thought about using my CTA rights by handing over my Polish driving licence which clearly states that I was born in the UK, but I wanted to get to the pub.
- Polish ID card denied for travel to the UK from Dublin (!). The agent claimed that they weren't acceptable, and even when I told her I was a dual citizen, she demanded to see a passport.
- no check on arrival in the UK.
- Polish ID card used for departure from Standard
- Polish ID used when arriving in Poland.



This was largely down to the UK not really complying with the spirit of FoM. Although, as a British citizen, I was definitely asked a few questions in the past, especially on the Slovenian-Croatian border.



Much to my annoyance. It's so much easier to carry a plastic card than a booklet!



The key issue here was that some EU countries (specifically Italy) had major issues with phasing out paper ID cards, and the EU was unwilling to let the UK only accept biometric ID cards. It could have been negotiated, but the UK didn't show any real interest in the topic. As it stands, it's still perfectly possible to fly into Ireland with an ID card, and then travel onwards to the UK without encountering any control and all with a standard ID card. My experience in Dublin Airport seems to have been the exception rather than the norm.



Not guaranteed entry, but in practice, it's very difficult for Ireland to block an EU citizen from entering Ireland. It can only be done in very limited circumstance, and 'intent to breach UK immigration law' is not one of them.



EEA ID card is enough for UK-Ireland flights and reverse.



This is not the case on most borders. I quite routinely travel using my British passport across the Schengen border, and very few countries bother with interrogating British citizens. Spain was one of the exceptions, but in general, they usually just stamp my passport after flicking through it. I have my Polish ID as a backup in case they whine about the stamps/overstays, although my passport (according to the stamps) normally shows that I'm in no man's land somewhere. I just checked, and currently, my passport thinks that I'm stuck on the Croatian/Slovenian border as I deliberately got stamped out of Croatia and then used my ID card to enter Slovenia.

Even with the new arrangements, it's not going to take more than a couple of minutes for most travellers.

why you would use the more restrictive British passport to travel Europe when you have a valid EU ID card ? Your setting yourself up to make it difficult.

personally i’d enter Europe with an EU ID and save the hassle / slowness of the non-EU line, and any future line of questioning about length of stay.

Assuming your PL ID is linked to the EUSS (EU Settlement scheme) and thus your right to fly to the UK on an EU ID and not a passport.. Iirc holding an ID linked to EUSS and holding a UK passport is not compatible…
you are either a naturalised British Citizen or you hold EU settled (or pre) status, but not both.

You can hold multiple passports (as we do), but entering the UK with a PL ID linked to an EUSS is not valid, if you hold a British passport… I understand there are extreme fines for this. Your EUSS is traded in for that British citizenship.. and your British, no longer an immigrant.

We gave up EUSS as soon as UK citizenship arrived for my partner, aiui its no longer valid, and she is now British, as well as Polish. it could also be used as evidence to remove citizenship in extreme situations… so every entry to the UK is always with the UK passport, as is we goto Poland is always the PL passport, but any other country is upto preference.

I am writing this from Krakow tonight, specifically being here to navigate the bureacracy in reverse for my daughter, born in the UK and getting her a Polish passport, to accompany her British one, having spent too much time resolving my partners UK residence, then status, then citizenship last year.

if you dont mind, how do you hold a PL ID without living in Poland, even my wife has a hard time with that one, her PL ID is 2 years out of date we cannot get one for my little one, only a PL passport.., and as it turned out a bunch of docs to get an SSN too…which we actually managed whilst waiting in the passport queue… despite having to go on a 6 mile round trip across Krakow to another office in order to get it, and get back before the queue number was called..
aiui yesterday, the rules require actual residence to get one ?

 

[Wolfie]

I understand that there are other reasons why they have chosen to introduce the ETIAS system. But i still think making money is one of the reasons. If it was nothing to do with making money and entirely to do with knowing who is entering and preventing criminals from entering than they would not charge for it and they would make it free for all. It is just something that you apply for online so there is no reason at all to charge for it. So these governments are obviously trying to make some money out of it too.

You do, l assume, know that the UK was one of the nations pushing hardest for ETIAS before Brexit was decided on. It's hardly coincidence that UK is now pursuing ETA.

 

[johncrossley]

why you would use the more restrictive British passport to travel Europe when you have a valid EU ID card ? Your setting yourself up to make it difficult.

That means taking both the UK passport as well as the EU ID card.

 

[Chester1]

The key issue here was that some EU countries (specifically Italy) had major issues with phasing out paper ID cards, and the EU was unwilling to let the UK only accept biometric ID cards. It could have been negotiated, but the UK didn't show any real interest in the topic. As it stands, it's still perfectly possible to fly into Ireland with an ID card, and then travel onwards to the UK without encountering any control and all with a standard ID card. My experience in Dublin Airport seems to have been the exception rather than the norm.

Not guaranteed entry, but in practice, it's very difficult for Ireland to block an EU citizen from entering Ireland. It can only be done in very limited circumstance, and 'intent to breach UK immigration law' is not one of them.

I am not sure accepting biometric only ID cards could have been negoiated or at least at a negotiating price acceptable to the UK. Its exactly the sort of thing the EU gets very legalistic about. Its understandable but so is the UK not being prepared to accept paper ID post brexit. Its a simple choice, the UK government has chosen to accept a slight reduction in tourism by EU citizens in order to reduce illegal entry into the UK. That choice shouldn't be necessary once all EU national ID cards in circulation are biometric.

If Ireland becomes a significant back door EU law or UK procedures would need to change. Its not in the spirit of either FOM or the Good Friday Agreement for EU to enable EU citizens to abuse EU citizenship rights and the open border in Ireland to gain illegal entry into the UK. If necessary the UK could semi end the CTA by treating flights from Republic of Ireland the same as other international flights forcing passengers to go through passport controls and ban national ID cards. That would limit the size of the weak part of the border. NI to GB travel should be relatively easy to monitor without a formal internal border through carrier ID checks and conventional policing.

Management of CTA is not just a UK issue. The Irish government recently blamed the Rwanda policy for a surge in asylum claims away from ports of entry. They suspect people are crossing the channel in small boats, travelling from GB to NI and then crossing the land border to claim asylum in Ireland.

UK citizens still have the option of moving to Ireland and naturalising after 5 years.

99% of Brits that don't like brexit or the UK as a whole would rather stay and moan than try to live the dream. Some people have dependents etc but plenty of unattached Brits like to believe the grass is greener in the EU but would never move. Ireland is close to what many remainers claim they want UK to be like and we have FOM with it, funny how its not been swamped with Brits in the last two years....

You do, l assume, know that the UK was one of the nations pushing hardest for ETIAS before Brexit was decided on. It's hardly coincidence that UK is now pursuing ETA.

I wasn't aware the UK had pushed it in the EU but it makes sense. The UK ETA is sort of already in place and has been for a while. Citizens of six gulf states can apply for electronic visa waivers: https://www.gov.uk/get-electronic-visa-waiver while UK ETA will be different the current system functions as a prototype of it. The basic principle is the same, its just a security check not full visa assessment because Kuwaitis etc are unlikely to work illegally etc in UK.

 

[riceuten]

My understanding is however that the UK chose not to accept them because the level of forged ID cards is much higher than for passports.

I also think that we already have a system running to track length of entry electronically rather than using stamps - at any rate I'm pretty sure I've seen signs in airports saying that US citizens can use passport gates on entry to the UK and do not need to then get their passport stamped apart from in particular circumstances.

They also had specific concerns about some ID cards being issued by certain countries, where such an ID card could (apparently) be had for a few hundred euro, no questions asked. But rather than address that issue (and insist perhaps nationals from that country provide a passport instead of an ID card), the UK decided on a ridiculous blanket ban - and something that would go down well with the governing party's core vote.

"Plenty of unattached Brits like to believe the grass is greener in the EU but would never move"

Mainly because such a move is now impossible. It's beyond irritating when Brexiteers say "if you love the EU so much, why don't you go and live there", when that is a practical and logistical impossibility

 

[Cloud Strife]

why you would use the more restrictive British passport to travel Europe when you have a valid EU ID card ? Your setting yourself up to make it difficult.

For fun! It doesn't make any practical difference, except that I have to carry my passport. But if I'm going outside Schengen, I tend to take both anyway, and there's no difference if I take my Polish or British passports. I'm just a troublemaker, that's all

personally i’d enter Europe with an EU ID and save the hassle / slowness of the non-EU line, and any future line of questioning about length of stay.

In practice, it really doesn't make much difference. Most of my non-Polish travel across the Schengen border tends to be by car, so questions are few and far between.

Assuming your PL ID is linked to the EUSS (EU Settlement scheme) and thus your right to fly to the UK on an EU ID and not a passport.. Iirc holding an ID linked to EUSS and holding a UK passport is not compatible…
you are either a naturalised British Citizen or you hold EU settled (or pre) status, but not both.

It's not linked to EUSS. However, the Home Office (or whoever it was) made it clear that the airlines weren't to demand any evidence of it, so you can fly with an EU ID even if you aren't on the EUSS. I'm not a naturalised British citizen, but by descent after being born in the UK.

You can hold multiple passports (as we do), but entering the UK with a PL ID linked to an EUSS is not valid, if you hold a British passport… I understand there are extreme fines for this. Your EUSS is traded in for that British citizenship.. and your British, no longer an immigrant.

There are no fines. British citizens with the right of abode have to be admitted to the UK, regardless of how they actually arrived. As was made clear to me, I *could* use a EU ID, but it would involve delays while the boss checked everything to make sure that the Cloud Strife on the ID was the same Cloud Strife that has British citizenship. The bloke at immigration was very friendly about the whole thing, and he laughed when I told him that I hadn't been paying any attention to the rules post-Brexit.

if you dont mind, how do you hold a PL ID without living in Poland, even my wife has a hard time with that one, her PL ID is 2 years out of date we cannot get one for my little one, only a PL passport.., and as it turned out a bunch of docs to get an SSN too…which we actually managed whilst waiting in the passport queue… despite having to go on a 6 mile round trip across Krakow to another office in order to get it, and get back before the queue number was called..
aiui yesterday, the rules require actual residence to get one ?

I live in Poland, as a naturalised Polish citizen. But yes, I know the problems with getting an ID outside of Poland: it's simply not possible, although most Poles continue to stay registered at an address in PL so that they can get a new ID every 10 years. The PESEL (the Polish social security number) can be obtained through the Polish consulates/embassies though.

 

[Chester1]

They had specific concerns about ID cards being issued by certain countries, where an ID card could (apparently) be had for a few hundred euro. But rather than address that issue (and insist perhaps nationals from that country provide a passport instead of an ID card), the UK decided on a ridiculous blanket ban - and something that would go down well with the governing party's core vote.

Its not a ridiculous blanket ban. Various agreements require the UK to treat EU Citizens the same regardless of nationality unless they have EU permission to. The EU said no to only accepting biometric cards and the UK government wasn't prepared to use negotiating capital to push the issue so banned use of all of them for entry to UK.

 

[Ianigsy]

I can’t help feeling that if most of the developed world is going down this road then it’d be better to have a single system, but then you would need rules on what access each country’s authorities would have to details which don’t directly involve them. It’s the old issue of ’why does the CIA want to know about my fortnight in Tenerife?’.

We haven’t yet started to address the potential issues with virtual working across borders- a senior manager in my organisation is based in Amsterdam so is presumably a legal permanent resident of the Netherlands but as far as I know, a British citizen working for a British company. Governments and the law tend to be about a decade behind technology, but as it stands subject to data protection and contractual issues there isn’t anything much to stop a British company employing an EU national to work in their own country if the cost of relocating them to the UK is prohibitive.

It was also interesting to read the other week that this is affecting the likes of project teams and IT contractors because individual countries have retained their own work permit regimes- teams are getting swapped out every three months to save having to apply for longer term Schengen visas and individuals are having to be circumspect about where they holiday in case that week in Tuscany puts them over their 90 days.

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

I think it might be best for those with two or more nationalities to present both/all passports/id cards.

 

[Cloud Strife]

I am not sure accepting biometric only ID cards could have been negoiated or at least at a negotiating price acceptable to the UK. Its exactly the sort of thing the EU gets very legalistic about. Its understandable but so is the UK not being prepared to accept paper ID post brexit. Its a simple choice, the UK government has chosen to accept a slight reduction in tourism by EU citizens in order to reduce illegal entry into the UK. That choice shouldn't be necessary once all EU national ID cards in circulation are biometric.

It was possible, but by all accounts, the UK didn't even bother to really negotiate on many things. The EU themsleves were pushing heavily to get rid of these paper IDs, so biometric-only ID for entry to the UK wouldn't have been a big deal. It was only really Italy that presented a problem, as most other states already had biometric identity cards.

If Ireland becomes a significant back door EU law or UK procedures would need to change. Its not in the spirit of either FOM or the Good Friday Agreement for EU to enable EU citizens to abuse EU citizenship rights and the open border in Ireland to gain illegal entry into the UK. If necessary the UK could semi end the CTA by treating flights from Republic of Ireland the same as other international flights forcing passengers to go through passport controls and ban national ID cards. That would limit the size of the weak part of the border. NI to GB travel should be relatively easy to monitor without a formal internal border through carrier ID checks and conventional policing.

So in turn:

1) Yes, quite possible for the UK to implement border control for flights from the RoI, just as it's done by the Republic from flights from the UK. In fact, it's not entirely uncommon for these flights to be controlled anyway: Aberdeen Airport used to routinely control passengers from Dublin for instance. I'm actually surprised that the UK hasn't introduced border controls on RoI-UK flights, with the possible exception of flights from the RoI to Derry and/or Belfast.

National ID cards are already banned for travel from the RoI to the British Islands (including non-UK territories), with the exception of the Irish passport card, unless they're registered under the EUSS.

2) The problematic part is in bold. The Unionists in NI will not accept carrier ID checks and other forms of policing the internal UK border.