EU rules to travel

[Chester1]

Well that is lovely, except 1) I don't have a paper ID (and I do chuckle at your idea of telling citizens validly issued an ID card by their country that sorry it is not no longer valid because some bloke in the UK says you need a digital one now) 2) I would obviously enter the UK on my UK documentation as a UK national and 3) your various ramblings remind me you don't really know very much about this subject, but of course you are entitled to your opinions and I will defend your right to spout them irrespective.

1) people such as yourself doesn't necessarily mean you. I meant Italians resident in the UK that have paper ID, which I am aware is only some. If the EU were to want a deal they would have to make some compromises that deal with the security risks. The UK government seems happy with the status quo do its irrelevant.

2) Again, I didn't actually refer to you.

3) Do you understand the concept of speculation? You repeatedly make legalistic posts in various threads relating to international travel and then belittle members of the forum. I have replied to general posts in this thread, most of which are also not trying to advise people. Its an interesting topic and one where a lot has changed in recently years. There is nothing wrong with speculating what may change in the future.

Its fortunate that other members of the forum don't take this attitude in post below, when matters relating to their employment appear. I certainly don't.

This topic in some shape of form comes up regularly. The OP asked reasonable questions, and yet as so often there is so much conjecture that has no bearing on the actual law in the thread I don't know whether to laugh or cry (also some sensible and helpful replies). I have posted this already elsewhere but as a reminder, here is the law regarding Schengen entry for thrid country nationals, which now of course includes UK nationals: Other thread on EU entry.

Oh and on ID cards - the UK has long not liked them so has not stopped accepting them as is in its gift with Brexit (other than for those who validly used them for EUSS - that will be phased out though). To be clear the new EEA+ ones are biometric to a common standard so once all stock is those they contain the same essential information as the chip in your passport. On stamping and exit - UK does not do exit checks with limited exceptions - most traffic is via airports where there are none. It also does not do routine stamping other than for certain tiers of Visa - it is quite confusing for people as they need to know before the border if they need a stamp of not for the form of entry they presenting. For Schengen the stamps provide the physical proof of adherence with the 90/180 day rule so important to ensure it is done correctly - you are checked though against the Schengen Information System (SIS) and so there is a digital entry and exit too, which with ETIAS and EES will do away with the wet ink stamps and improve the information available and shared by SIS.

I have assumed based you how you write that immigration law relates to your current or previous employment. If so you might want to consider what rail staff could write about your posts in other parts of the forum if they wanted to be really critical...

If you don't have expert knowledge, perhaps you shouldn't be certain about what won't change and let others discuss?

 

[EAD]

Belarus and Russia do not have any identity cards like other European countries. A passport is the one and only form of identification in Belarus and Russia currently. So to answer the question made earlier nobody can travel to Belarus or Russia without a passport however you can travel between Belarus and Russia without any identification (at least by land) as these two countries have formed their own version of the Schengen area.

I have never understood the point of why so many of the mainland European countries have ID cards. Every country already have an ID called a passport so why have two. It makes no sense to have two documents when you only need one. A passport is an ID so why would someone want both an ID card and a passport (or why even have two options) when just a passport does the same job. I think the UK is much more sensible here as we just have passports.

Maybe what countries should really be doing is making our passports easier and cheaper to get. In fact perhaps making them free of charge would be good. I see no reason why we could not make passports free. ENCTS passes are free and the councils often struggle with receiving enough money from the government so i see no reason why they could not make passports free. It would make it nice and easy and simple for anyone to get a passport and then everyone would have an ID they could use.

So instead of identification cards i think that passports are the real way forward. If i was in charge i would scrap identification cards for all countries and just use the passport which would solve so many issues.

Because those countries have ID to allow proof of who you are to access services in your own country. It it nothing to do with travel, the acceptance of an agreed set of standards to allow them to be used as such within Schengen came later (yes you can be asked for proof even if not the norm). They are cheaper and a requirement in many countries whereas a passport is not (just like in the UK). The UK is the country that is different here for its own reasons.

 

[AlterEgo]

Belarus and Russia do not have any identity cards like other European countries. A passport is the one and only form of identification in Belarus and Russia currently. So to answer the question made earlier nobody can travel to Belarus or Russia without a passport however you can travel between Belarus and Russia without any identification (at least by land) as these two countries have formed their own version of the Schengen area.

I have never understood the point of why so many of the mainland European countries have ID cards. Every country already have an ID called a passport so why have two. It makes no sense to have two documents when you only need one. A passport is an ID so why would someone want both an ID card and a passport (or why even have two options) when just a passport does the same job. I think the UK is much more sensible here as we just have passports.

Maybe what countries should really be doing is making our passports easier and cheaper to get. In fact perhaps making them free of charge would be good. I see no reason why we could not make passports free. ENCTS passes are free and the councils often struggle with receiving enough money from the government so i see no reason why they could not make passports free. It would make it nice and easy and simple for anyone to get a passport and then everyone would have an ID they could use.

So instead of identification cards i think that passports are the real way forward. If i was in charge i would scrap identification cards for all countries and just use the passport which would solve so many issues.

How does that work for non citizens then?

 

[EAD]

1) people such as yourself doesn't necessarily mean you. I meant Italians resident in the UK that have paper ID. If the EU were to want a deal they would have to make some compromises that deal with the security risks. The UK government seems happy with the status quo do its irrelevant.

2) Again, I didn't actually refer to you.

3) Do you understand the concept of speculation? You repeatedly make legalistic posts in various threads relating to international travel and then belittle members of the forum. I have replied to general posts in this thread, most of which are also not trying to advise people. Its an interesting topic and one where a lot has changed in recently years. There is nothing wrong with speculating what may change in the future.

Its fortunate that other members of the forum don't take this attitude in post below, when matters relating to their employment appear. I certainly don't.



I have assumed based you how you write that immigration law relates to your current or previous employment. If so you might want to consider what rail staff could write about your posts in other parts of the forum if they wanted to be really critical...

If you don't have expert knowledge, perhaps you shouldn't be certain about what won't change and let others discuss?

Calm down - it is quite amusing you getting so exercised here. This is a railway forum on the internet and that is its primary purpose. I am not belittling anyone and am sorry if you feel so. Yes, my posts are rooted in the law and there to assist the more unhelpful elements of wild speculation that are at the minimum unhelpful to posters asking genuine questions and at worst could mislead them.

I don't really get your last point to be honest - I have the knowledge of someone who as I have said before is a lawyer and references the actual law versus conjecture to try and help people. That is common knowledge but also me using my day to day skills to assist people - just as there are those on here with other areas of expertise that I am very happy to listen to: the joy of life is we all bring something different to it. Things may change yes, but there is a difference between being unable to explain the actual current situation and why it is so and idle speculation (to which as I have said before we are all entiled and which even if it amounts to a hill of beans I am happy to defend the rights of anyone to spout).

I should add that it is not my intention to offend anyone at all so sorry if you feel that way. As I say, it is merely a topic I have quite some interest and knowledge of and I wish to keep it factual for the sake of the OP.

 

[Chester1]

Calm down - it is quite amusing you getting so exercised here. This is a railway forum on the internet and that is its primary purpose. I am not belittling anyone and am sorry if you feel so. Yes, my posts are rooted in the law and there to assist the more unhelpful elements of wild speculation that are at the minimum unhelpful to posters asking genuine questions and at worst could mislead them.

I don't really get your last point to be honest - I have the knowledge of someone who as I have said before is a lawyer and references the actual law versus conjecture to try and help people. That is common knowledge but also me using my day to day skills to assist people - your comment on expertise is therefore bemusing. Things may change yes, but there is a difference between being unable to explain the actual current situation and why it is so and idle speculation (to which as I have said before we are all entiled and which even if it amounts to a hill of beans I am happy to defend the rights of anyone to spout).

You described my posts as rambling and have written similar or worse in similar threads about other members for speculating. Describing me my reaction as asuming is also abnoxious.

 

[EAD]

You described my posts as rambling and have written similar or worse in similar threads about other members for speculating. Describing me my reaction as asuming is also abnoxious.

I was editing when you replied - as I have made clear in my full reply, I do not intend to cause any offence. I am sorry you feel that way, but I do not recognise your characterisation of my posts or me being obnoxious, but of course if you wish to point me to a specific issue in support of your feelings I am very happy to consider it. I give you my point 3) was a tad harshly worded on reflection and I could have been more delicate in expressing my view there.

 

[Fragezeichnen]

I have never understood the point of why so many of the mainland European countries have ID cards. Every country already have an ID called a passport so why have two. It makes no sense to have two documents when you only need one. A passport is an ID so why would someone want both an ID card and a passport (or why even have two options) when just a passport does the same job. I think the UK is much more sensible here as we just have passports.

So instead of identification cards i think that passports are the real way forward. If i was in charge i would scrap identification cards for all countries and just use the passport which would solve so many issues.

Maybe should at least try to understand before making such sweeping statement, since you don't seem to understand at all what an ID card is for.

Upon being asked to provide a recent bank statement in order to hire a car, or a driving license and 2 recent utility bills in order open a bank account, have you not ever thought. "There has to be a better way"? There is - an ID card. One credit card sized, government issued item which proves both identity and place of residence together. International travel is just a nice side benefit.

Only due to it's lack of ID cards has the UK had to evolve these complex rules in the first place. A friend of mine even passed the training course to work as a nightclub bouncer, but never managed to apply for the necessary license because the identification requirements were so high it was impossible for him to meet them.

 

[Watershed]

Belarus and Russia do not have any identity cards like other European countries. A passport is the one and only form of identification in Belarus and Russia currently. So to answer the question made earlier nobody can travel to Belarus or Russia without a passport however you can travel between Belarus and Russia without any identification (at least by land) as these two countries have formed their own version of the Schengen area.

I have never understood the point of why so many of the mainland European countries have ID cards. Every country already have an ID called a passport so why have two. It makes no sense to have two documents when you only need one. A passport is an ID so why would someone want both an ID card and a passport (or why even have two options) when just a passport does the same job. I think the UK is much more sensible here as we just have passports.

I suppose the inherent reason why you couldn't have just one or the other is that a passport is too bulky to carry around (it doesn't exactly fit in a wallet like a credit card sized ID card!) yet many countries require people to carry a form of ID at all times. And you couldn't just have an ID card, because that wouldn't allow for stamps for entry/exit from foreign countries - it only works where countries have access to a common database, as in the EU.

I do agree that it should be free, or at least heavily subsidised, to get an ID card and passport. It is almost impossible to work, rent somewhere, travel etc. without them and it thus poses an unfair burden on the poorest in society.

 

[XAM2175]

As regards costs, thats a UK thing.. other countries do offer this for negligable amounts (I just paid £7 for a Polish passport on friday)...I paid £152 for a British one via the equivalent expedited channel and timescale.

I recently paid £274 to renewing my Australian passport in the UK, if that makes you feel better? (£85 of which was the overseas processing surcharge)

Biometric Residence Permits are being phased out and gone entirely on 1st January 2025. A friend of mine was quite concerned when they got a card that expired 31st December 2024... I researched it and realised why. The problem with BRPs for proof of right to work or rent is that very good counterfeit cards can be made. They don't contain data so wouldn't get you through e gates but they can fool the average employer or landlord who will look at and scan them. The share code system on gov.uk is much more secure although a little more hassle.

I would note that the reason for the 2024 expiry is printed on the letter to which the BRP comes attached. They do actually store the holders digital photograph and fingerprints and so theoretically they could be used to cross the UK border via an e-gate, so long as it was capable of reading the card's IC.

The share code system has one massive problem - noone outside the UK knows what it is and it also shaky. Sod all use when you are looking to board your flight back to your place of legal residence and the airline agent asks for proof of residency status. Going digital is a nice idea in principle, but people need something physical for those situations to avoid unnecessary stress and wrongful denial of boarding.

Yes, I also have concerns about unfamiliarity with the system - or it being temporarily defective for whatever reason. On the former point at least it will be integrated with the new electronic travel authority system, so in theory a lot of those "does this constitute sufficient proof of right to admission" questions currently outsourced to airline handling agents will eventually be handled by the airline's computer.

I do agree that it should be free, or at least heavily subsidised, to get an ID card and passport. It is almost impossible to work, rent somewhere, travel etc. without them and it thus poses an unfair burden on the poorest in society.

Agreed. Proof of identity, address, and right to residence and employment at the very least. Of course the argument is that you don't need all of these if you have a birth certificate, utility bills, and a bunch of other things, but it's very burdensome on both people trying to compile that evidence and on organisations trying to stay on top of all the various complexities.

 

[Wolfie]

I suppose the inherent reason why you couldn't have just one or the other is that a passport is too bulky to carry around (it doesn't exactly fit in a wallet like a credit card sized ID card!) yet many countries require people to carry a form of ID at all times. And you couldn't just have an ID card, because that wouldn't allow for stamps for entry/exit from foreign countries - it only works where countries have access to a common database, as in the EU.

I do agree that it should be free, or at least heavily subsidised, to get an ID card and passport. It is almost impossible to work, rent somewhere, travel etc. without them and it thus poses an unfair burden on the poorest in society.

Re your last para HMG policy is that passport costs cover the whole costs of infrastructure and issue plus some of the costs of the FCDO consulate network.

 

[Cloud Strife]

EUID does not supercede a British passport in the UK, and they will reject it except under the following conditions…

It doesn't supercede a British passport, but it will be accepted as a form of ID by a British citizen. There is no obligation for a British citizen to use a British travel document, they only have to be able to identify themselves. Of course, it will take longer using this method, because it will have to be checked and verified that the holder of the EU ID has British citizenship.

But if you look at what I said, it has nothing to do with this scenario. I said that the EU ID supercedes everything else when in the EU.

reading your content it reads to me like a desire to be baiting immigration, by showing something that would cause you immigration issues, but then showing a different status to revalidate yourself.

Indeed. It's good fun. I'm not obliged to show a British travel document to enter the UK under the relevant law.

3. Below shows an admission about lieing for reason to travel..
4. and proof that trying your ID didnt work, but was only admitted because you had a UK passport.

3. Where is the lie? I'm not obliged to show an EU ID at non-Polish border crossings. I'm required to identify myself as Polish to the Polish state, but that law has zero effect outside of PL.
4. I couldn't be bothered on the last trip to wait for them to verify everything. I could have, but I had a rather tight connection in Luton caused by a delayed flight.

Why you’d want to mess with immigration, risk delays, conversations etc is beyond me. There is such a thing as karma, that works both ways.

If I'm not in a hurry (I was in a relative hurry on this last trip), then why not? I can end the conversation at any moment by showing a British passport.

Having an ID card does not espow having citizenship of a country.

What? This is fundamentally incorrect in almost all cases in the EU. Estonia is the only country in the EU that issues something known as an identity card to non-citizens, but otherwise, an ID card = citizenship.

Holders do not have to be citizens.

In all but Estonia within the EU, an identity card is equal to holding citizenship of that country. Other countries do not issue identity cards, but residence permits/certificates/etc. The exact name varies, but otherwise, the phrase "identity card" is reserved for citizens.

The UK does have one of these, its called a Biometric Residence Card, permanent residents (non UK citizens) have access to these and return them upon citizenship and getting a passport,it is a supporting document at immigration.

That is not an identity card and was never accepted for travel within the EU. There is a fundamental difference between an EU identity card (except in the previously mentioned Estonian example, which instead annotates their identity cards with the phrase 'not valid for travel' in the case of EU citizens holding one) and a card which functions as proof of residency.

As eluded to earlier, getting a PL is harder, they can be withdrawn / refused, even if you have a Polish passport.

They are mandatory for Polish citizens with a registered address in Poland and cannot be refused/withdrawn.

the two are not mutually linked

The two are linked for Polish citizens living in Poland. You cannot obtain a passport (as an adult) without a Polish identity card.

This discrepency is maybe why the UK doesnt recognise EU ID cards.. they prove ID, not an individual EU state citizenship… you could be a North Korean, with a Schengen visa issued for Poland, and still hold a Polish EU ID that is quite definitely outside the remit of EU states rights to visit the UK… but you could do quite well navigating the EU with it, until caught.

This is fundamentally incorrect and represents a misunderstanding of what an identity card is. In most EU countries, the identity card is a form of identification, equal to a passport. Without going into excruciating detail, the Polish identity card as issued to Polish citizens is an 'identity document', whereas in your case, you're referring to a 'document that proves identity' - the two are *not* the same thing. Identity documents can be used to cross the Polish border (Schengen/non-Schengen alike), whereas a 'document that proves identity' is not valid for international travel.

Is there a risk of people different documents having issues because they try to enter a country more than once when the system thinks they are already there?

Nope. Already tried it on the Slovenian (Schengen) border several times and no-one batted an eyelid.

It does for most countries. A Dutch ID card is for example only available to Dutch citizens and I believe this applies to all EU countries. Next to ID cards, other cards exists, such as residency permits which have some similarities, but are not interchangeable with ID cards.

Indeed, Sm5 is mixing up identity cards (which function as proof of citizenship and are accepted instead of passports on a mutual basis by countries upon agreement) with residence permits/etc. In the case of Poland, a Polish ID card is only available to Polish citizens. There are other identity documents that can be obtained, but the 'dowód osobisty' is only available to Polish citizens and it's what lives in my wallet on a day to day basis.

2. One should always use a travel document indicating citizenship to travel from / to his country of citizenship. Not using it is at least inviting trouble, or in some countries, even illegal, for example, the USA.

It isn't mandatory in the UK to do so. In Poland, it is, and it has caused serious problems in the past for those with Polish names where they can be claimed as citizens.

Many poorer countries make passports that cost less than £85 but the cheaper they are the easier fakes are to make.

Polish passports are no less secure than British ones. The only difference in price is that we only pay for the cost of the passport itself, whereas the UK loads a lot of additional fees onto the cost of the passport. For instance, embassies are funded through the cost of a passport, whereas PL funds them through the general budget.

as there is no “EU” ID card, just recognition of each others, even if they may not be equivalent in issuance criteria.

All EU identity cards (with the exception of Estonia) are issued only to citizens of that country. The Estonian ID cards are explicitly marked 'not valid for travel', so there's no difference in criteria when it comes to issuing them.

 

[XAM2175]

Re your last para HMG policy is that passport costs cover the whole costs of infrastructure and issue plus some of the costs of the FCDO consulate network.

This isn't necessarily a bad thing in and of itself, but the point stands that there really should be an identity document for use within the UK that proves both the bearer's address and their right to residence and employment that is available at an affordable cost. At present the driver's licence is insufficient for that role and the full passport too expensive.

 

[Mag_seven]

Can I remind everybody of the following forum rule which needs to be followed in this thread as well as any other:

We aim to create a friendly environment for all members, where individuals respect each other. Please ensure your contributions comply with this.

thanks

 

[Chester1]

Polish passports are no less secure than British ones. The only difference in price is that we only pay for the cost of the passport itself, whereas the UK loads a lot of additional fees onto the cost of the passport. For instance, embassies are funded through the cost of a passport, whereas PL funds them through the general budget.

It sounds like the Polish government charges its Citizens the marginal cost of each passport while the UK government charges what it considers to be the real cost. I bet the manufacturing cost is very similar. Many developing countries passports are cheaper to make than European passports but they are simpler and therefore less secure. Its a trade off between cost and detail.

This isn't necessarily a bad thing in and of itself, but the point stands that there really should be an identity document for use within the UK that proves both the bearer's address and their right to residence and employment that is available at an affordable cost. At present the driver's licence is insufficient for that role and the full passport too expensive.

An alternative would be allowing British citizens to opt in to the sharecode system used by immigrants for right to rent and right to work checks. That would avoid the cost of issuing cards.

Maybe should at least try to understand before making such sweeping statement, since you don't seem to understand at all what an ID card is for.

Upon being asked to provide a recent bank statement in order to hire a car, or a driving license and 2 recent utility bills in order open a bank account, have you not ever thought. "There has to be a better way"? There is - an ID card. One credit card sized, government issued item which proves both identity and place of residence together. International travel is just a nice side benefit.

Only due to it's lack of ID cards has the UK had to evolve these complex rules in the first place. A friend of mine even passed the training course to work as a nightclub bouncer, but never managed to apply for the necessary license because the identification requirements were so high it was impossible for him to meet them.

Its not really a logical thing, more a cultural eccentricity because of association with authoritian regimes. Labour had significant internal resistance when they tried to introduce ID cards so its not just a right wing issue. Perhaps a good comparison would be German resistance to payment by card. I don't know if this has changed since the pandemic but it was very noticable beforehand. My view is that immigrants and tourists should go with the flow in their host countries. At least neither the UK or EU states have an obsession with guns!

 

[Cloud Strife]

It sounds like the Polish government charges its Citizens the marginal cost of each passport while the UK government charges what it considers to be the real cost. I bet the manufacturing cost is very similar. Many developing countries passports are cheaper to make than European passports but they are simpler and therefore less secure. Its a trade off between cost and detail.

Yes, that's exactly how it works. The cost of the passport is for the actual document, while the other costs are part of different budgets. Incidentally, ID cards are free.

An alternative would be allowing British citizens to opt in to the sharecode system used by immigrants for right to rent and right to work checks.

There is another alternative: Poland will introduce fully digital ID cards. I have my ID card on my phone, which can be used for a range of purposes, but with the new regulations, digital ID cards will be 100% identical to physical ID cards and will be acceptable in every single situation which requires the production of an ID card, including crossing the state border.

 

[Chester1]

There is another alternative: Poland will introduce fully digital ID cards. I have my ID card on my phone, which can be used for a range of purposes, but with the new regulations, digital ID cards will be 100% identical to physical ID cards and will be acceptable in every single situation which requires the production of an ID card, including crossing the state border.

They will be more secure than physical ID cards but digital ID cards would push up against no ID cards sentiment if the UK government tried to introduce them. The sharecode system is good because it forces landlords and employees to interact with a government system rather than rely on something that the person has shown them and that they are not trained to check authenticity of. Digital ID could be designed for temporary sharing too. I have used sharecode when renting my spareroom and its very easy to use. They logged into gov.uk and clicked an option to generate a sharecode and sent it to me. I logged in and entered the code and their name and DOB. This took me to a page showing a photo of them and confirming their right to rent and work. It also told me the end date of their visa. I think the sharecode was valid for 24 hours. It could work well for British Citizens that don't have passports.

 

[fandroid]

Currently UK citizens can visit the Schengen area (which is all EU/EFTA/EEA countries except Ireland which you can visit unrestricted) for up to 90 days within any 180 days period.

You get passport stamps every time you enter the Schengen area and every time you exit the Schengen area and these are important as they tell the border control how many days you have used up.

Although from some time in 2023 all UK citizens will require visas to visit the EU/EFTA/EEA (Schengen) countries (except Ireland) and from some time in 2024 all EU/EFTA/EEA (Schengen) citizens (except Ireland) will require visas to visit the UK.

Not quite correct. Romania and Bulgaria definitely are not in Schengen. I have a feeling that Cyprus too isn't in it.

Only my experience obviously, but I've been into/out of the Schengen area about 10 times since the end of the transition period and haven't noticed any particular increase in the length of time it takes to get through border control. Previously the officer would look at the passport, look at me, stick the passport under their reader and then give it back to me and send me on my way. Just the same now, but before they hand it back they stamp it. Takes a second or two longer.

I've never seen any of them count the days on the stamps. Only twice have I even been asked any questions, contrary to all the stories about people being given the third degree about where they're going, how long for, for what reason, can you prove you have enough funds etc. None of that. I've been asked twice how long I'm staying for, and in one of those instances I was asked for the purpose of my visit as well. I just said "holiday" and they were happy with that.

On the way out they've cared even less. Just stamp it and off you go.

Missed a connection at Lisbon Airport recently due to huge queues for non-EU passport holders, while the EU desk had no queue at all. The missed connection meant arriving at our Madeira accomodation at 5am Sunday instead of around 8pm Saturday and also having no checked-in luggage turn up until late the following Tuesday

 

[TheSeeker]

My Belgian ID card not only proves who I am when asked (an offence not to carry it) but also has my social security and health insurance details. A visit to the doctor or hospital becomes very simple. Just put it in the slot. My doctor recently prescribed some medication and this was also loaded into the pharmacy network via the ID card reader on her desk. At the pharmacy same drill and all details came up on the screen. In fact there's very little you can do officially without an ID card here. Submit taxes, buy/sell a car, get a driving license, buy a train season ticket (the photo for the ticket is read from the ID card), open a bank account, the list goes on and on. Even as a newly arrived Brit in 1998 I had to provide proof of a local employment contract, proof of good conduct (no criminal record) etc. Just to get a simple cardboard ID card. I always wonder why the UK chose not to do this. It seems quite sensible to allow people to prove who they are without resorting to "your last utility bill". Anyone remember when applying for passport in the UK you had to get someone of good standing to sign the back of the picture?

 

[jeremyjh]

At Munich airport going out last year, the officer was confused as to where I'd entered the Schengen area, because I'd gone there via Eurostar and Nightjet.

Got a fairly intense questioning at Hamburg Airport exit control because the agent was convinced we'd somehow flown to Copenhagen, dodged both EU exit and entry controls within a week and then presented at Hamburg to return to the UK. Happily her colleague intervened just as I was about to ask what precisely was the nature of her concern.

 

[Mag_seven]

Got a fairly intense questioning at Hamburg Airport exit control because the agent was convinced we'd somehow flown to Copenhagen, dodged both EU exit and entry controls within a week and then presented at Hamburg to return to the UK. Happily her colleague intervened just as I was about to ask what precisely was the nature of her concern.

At Munich airport going out last year, the officer was confused as to where I'd entered the Schengen area, because I'd gone there via Eurostar and Nightjet.

Its always handy to make a note of the page number of your latest "entry" stamp in case of questioning at the point of exit.

Missed a connection at Lisbon Airport recently due to huge queues for non-EU passport holders, while the EU desk had no queue at all.

The reality of Brexit is starting to sink in for a lot of us I'm afraid.

 

[Wolfie]

Its always handy to make a note of the page number of your latest "entry" stamp in case of questioning at the point of exit.



The reality of Brexit is starting to sink in for a lot of us I'm afraid.

Usefully for me l am entitled to an Irish passport. Three guesses what my next passport will be....

 

[Sm5]

The two are linked for Polish citizens living in Poland. You cannot obtain a passport (as an adult) without a Polish identity card.

I know this not to be true, unless you know something the passport office in Krakow doesnt. Ive spent 3 hours in it this week, and am now on my way home, with receipt in hand to collect said passport in 3 weeks, without ever applying for a Pol ID card.

I do find some other elements unaligned to my own experiences, in your post, and contradictory. You never answered my original question, which opened this discusion but tbh I’m not sure I want it either.

So i’ll draw a line under this particular discussion as i’m not sure we are going to agree. I’m going to enjoy Cafe Nowrolski once more.

thanks

 

[Mag_seven]

Usefully for me l am entitled to an Irish passport. Three guesses what my next passport will be....

Lucky you - I'm now a second class citizen

 

[AlbertBeale]

My Belgian ID card not only proves who I am when asked (an offence not to carry it) but also has my social security and health insurance details. A visit to the doctor or hospital becomes very simple. Just put it in the slot. My doctor recently prescribed some medication and this was also loaded into the pharmacy network via the ID card reader on her desk. At the pharmacy same drill and all details came up on the screen. In fact there's very little you can do officially without an ID card here. Submit taxes, buy/sell a car, get a driving license, buy a train season ticket (the photo for the ticket is read from the ID card), open a bank account, the list goes on and on. Even as a newly arrived Brit in 1998 I had to provide proof of a local employment contract, proof of good conduct (no criminal record) etc. Just to get a simple cardboard ID card. I always wonder why the UK chose not to do this. It seems quite sensible to allow people to prove who they are without resorting to "your last utility bill". Anyone remember when applying for passport in the UK you had to get someone of good standing to sign the back of the picture?

The reason the UK chose not to do this is presumably a matter of the political culture; when ID cards were last proposed 20 years ago, vast numbers signed a declaration that they would refuse to co-operate. The plan was dropped.

As to "Anyone remember when applying for passport in the UK you had to get someone of good standing to sign the back of the picture?" - I thought you still did if it was your first passport, or a new picture?

 

[Wolfie]

The reason the UK chose not to do this is presumably a matter of the political culture; when ID cards were last proposed 20 years ago, vast numbers signed a declaration that they would refuse to co-operate. The plan was dropped.

As to "Anyone remember when applying for passport in the UK you had to get someone of good standing to sign the back of the picture?" - I thought you still did if it was your first passport, or a new picture?

Re your last para you do indeed. That's not unique to the UK either.

 

[rvdborgt]

My Belgian ID card not only proves who I am when asked (an offence not to carry it) but also has my social security and health insurance details. A visit to the doctor or hospital becomes very simple. Just put it in the slot. My doctor recently prescribed some medication and this was also loaded into the pharmacy network via the ID card reader on her desk. At the pharmacy same drill and all details came up on the screen. In fact there's very little you can do officially without an ID card here. Submit taxes, buy/sell a car, get a driving license, buy a train season ticket (the photo for the ticket is read from the ID card), open a bank account, the list goes on and on. Even as a newly arrived Brit in 1998 I had to provide proof of a local employment contract, proof of good conduct (no criminal record) etc. Just to get a simple cardboard ID card. I always wonder why the UK chose not to do this. It seems quite sensible to allow people to prove who they are without resorting to "your last utility bill". Anyone remember when applying for passport in the UK you had to get someone of good standing to sign the back of the picture?

If you're still not a Belgian, then you most probably don't have a Belgian ID card but a residence card, which is explicitly not an ID card. It only proves you live in Belgium and is only valid together with your national ID card or passport. But the electronic residence card has much of the same functionality as the Belgian ID card. EU citizens are not required to have the electronic version (I didn't have one for a number of years), and solutions must be in place to allow for that but some parts of life have become more difficult without the electronic one so I decided to get one. Although it is entirely possible (and quite easy) to submit taxes, open a bank account, buy a train season ticket without having an electronic residence card (I did all that).

 

[WestCoast]

Got a fairly intense questioning at Hamburg Airport exit control because the agent was convinced we'd somehow flown to Copenhagen, dodged both EU exit and entry controls within a week and then presented at Hamburg to return to the UK. Happily her colleague intervened just as I was about to ask what precisely was the nature of her concern.

I entered Schengen this summer via Amsterdam and the agent plonked an entry stamp on a page that was already full, so I was expecting the exit control at Düsseldorf to be a bit upset at this but they didn’t bat an eyelid and put an exit stamp next to a Croatia exit one. I just get the feeling that many border police are less bothered about the stamps as they know the new system is coming in, even in countries that supposedly do it properly. Most intense questioning I have had was in Denmark, where they wanted to see my return flight booking although the agent then proceeded to recommend his favourite bars after I told him the reason for my visit.

 

[Bungle158]

Currently UK citizens can visit the Schengen area (which is all EU/EFTA/EEA countries except Ireland which you can visit unrestricted) for up to 90 days within any 180 days period.

You get passport stamps every time you enter the Schengen area and every time you exit the Schengen area and these are important as they tell the border control how many days you have used up.

Although from some time in 2023 all UK citizens will require visas to visit the EU/EFTA/EEA (Schengen) countries (except Ireland) and from some time in 2024 all EU/EFTA/EEA (Schengen) citizens (except Ireland) will require visas to visit the UK.

Sorry, but that isn't quite the case. The Schengen bloc does indeed extend to four countries outside the EU. This includes Switzerland, not an EEA/EFTA country, but a member of the Single Market.

ETIAS is a visa waiver scheme, not a per se visa. It will become fully operational by Nov 2023. Perhaps best thought of as similar to the US, ESTA pre-clearence system, which does not confer visa rights.

There are proposals to introduce a UK ETA permit system for EU, EFTA/EEA and Swiss citizens. Again similar to the US ESTA but certainly not a visa. The following link may be of use.

List of Non-EU countries where you can GO with a Schengen Visa

The Schengen visa allows foreign nationals to enter any country in the European Union with a single entry permit. However, in addition to the countries that signed the Schengen agreement, a Schengen visa allows holders to visit several other countries that aren’t in the European Union or the...

www.schengenvisainfo.com

 

[Chester1]

Sorry, but that isn't quite the case. The Schengen bloc does indeed extend to four countries outside the EU. This includes Switzerland, not an EEA/EFTA country, but a member of the Single Market.

ETIAS is a visa waiver scheme, not a per se visa. It will become fully operational by Nov 2023. Perhaps best thought of as similar to the US, ESTA pre-clearence system, which does not confer visa rights.

There are proposals to introduce a UK ETA permit system for EU, EFTA/EEA and Swiss citizens. Again similar to the US ESTA but certainly not a visa. The following link may be of use.

List of Non-EU countries where you can GO with a Schengen Visa

The Schengen visa allows foreign nationals to enter any country in the European Union with a single entry permit. However, in addition to the countries that signed the Schengen agreement, a Schengen visa allows holders to visit several other countries that aren’t in the European Union or the...

www.schengenvisainfo.com

Switzerland is in EFTA. As you stated it has its own set of agreements to participate in the single market. The other three members of EFTA are part of EEA. The EU has been pushing very hard to replace the hundreds of treaties that allow Switzerland to be part of the single market but the Swiss have so far resisted. The EU would much prefer to have one EEA treaty with Switzerland.

The UK ETA is not just for EU, EEA and Swiss Citizens. People of any nationality that isn't British or Irish will either require a visa or to use UK ETA. That means citizens of countries ranging from Brazil to Japan will be required to use UK ETA.

 

[Peterthegreat]

According to the BBC ETIAS has been delayed further.

EU biometric border system faces more delays

A new border control system, which was pushed back to May, has been delayed to the end of the year.

www.bbc.co.uk