EU to ban Powerful Vacuum Cleaners

[jon0844]

I am not sure what the rules are on hair dryers, but in the case of hand dryers - the new ones have powerful fans, but don't seem to get that hot. They don't really need to. As such I presume the heating element is far smaller, and you still dry your hands quicker. The motor for the fan probably uses very little power, compared to the heating element.

Of course, when it comes to a hair dryer you probably don't want such a fast burst of air and still need heat. Probably not that many ways to get around that - but I am sure there are better designs to target the heated air better, and buttons that need to be held for maximum heat instead of you being able to leave it on the hottest heat etc.

I think it's good that these regulations are coming in. If we weren't in the EU, would we not do the exact same thing? Or would we suddenly start digging for coal and ditching our economical cars for ones with old V8 engines and 5mpg?

 

[Trog]

Realistically, I can see houses soon having a secondary 5v (or something) wiring system, for USB sockets to charge devices, and to power lighting and other low power devices.

You can see it but unless you use something like 10mm per core cable which is getting on for the size of a hose pipe, voltage drop will mean that the sockets on the far side of the house will not work. Also have you considered the size of the box you would need to sink in your wall to take a three gang light switch at those cable weights.
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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ergy-hair-dryers-smartphones-and-kettles.html

The kettle one is really stupid as increasing the temperature of a given amount of water by a given amount takes a fixed amount of energy. Halve the value of the heating element and all you end up doing is using half as much power for twice as long. In fact as the kettle will be loosing heat to the atmosphere for twice as long you will actually end up using slightly more power.

 

[jon0844]

Nice to see that there was a rush on to buy old vacuum cleaners (in design terms) presumably by those who wanted to stick it to the EU.

And, again, the media get things wrong. The regulations on kettles isn't about cutting power as you need heat to boil the water, it's about things like better design to stop heat being wasted on heating more than the water (like the kettle itself), cutting out quicker once boiled, and improving design standards after it was found that there are far too many kettles failing in as little as 6 months.

So basically those extra cheap kettles will likely be banned because it's not good to chuck away electrical goods after 6 months or even a couple of years. Or the cheap ones will need to be better made, which is a good thing.

Our kettle does one cup at a time, which is ideal so you don't have to worry about pouring out water to use less energy (and boil quicker).
But rest assured, we will still get all the outrage and opportunities to slate the EU and demand independence etc.

Sent from my LG-D855 using Tapatalk

 

[David Goddard]

Vacuum Cleaner that's half as powerful = need to use twice as much to do the same job = uses the same amount of power overall but in twice the time = NIL effect on CO2 emissions = half as efficient as the first one.
Wife takes twice as long to do the cleaning = wife has half the time to cook the dinner.

 

[jon0844]

But that's not the case. Modern cars have engines that are between 1 and 2 litres and can have the power of a 5 or 6 cylinder car with 2 or more litres, and with a lot less emissions. LED bulbs use 10 times less power, but put out more visible light (and less heat). And if we weren't in the EU, having voted UKIP to allow us to enjoy our super powerful hoovers, we'd actually still comply as nobody would make something just for us and ignore the European market.

Modern designs can easily get more suction from a less powerful motor, and indeed they seem to be doing just that. And indeed most of the new compliant vacuum cleaners are far less powerful than they need to be to comply - so why would any company do that if they were no good?

But for now, the industry (which has been working to comply for many years - they knew 4 years or more ago) is quite happy to have people thinking they need to rush out and stockpile the old ones, using ancient designs. Once the stock is all sold out, they can kick off the marketing campaigns to point out how much better the newer design models are than the old ones.

I am in no doubt (and the likes of Which? back me up) that a new vacuum cleaner can be better than old ones. Remember when the original Dyson cyclone models came out? That was a revolution, and they're still being improved upon every year - but some companies were quite happy to not bother with R&D and just change the exterior look, or actually thought that they could sell more by saying it was more powerful or using words like 'turbo' to hide the fact that people are buying something that costs more to run with no significant advantage.

But, yes, expect some really crappy low powered models from lesser brands. Just don't buy them, job done.

 

[Domh245]

Vacuum Cleaner that's half as powerful = need to use twice as much to do the same job = uses the same amount of power overall but in twice the time = NIL effect on CO2 emissions = half as efficient as the first one.
Wife takes twice as long to do the cleaning = wife has half the time to cook the dinner.

That would only work if you take out the existing motor and replace it with one half as powerful leaving everything else the same. As has been posted many times now, this isn't going to double the amount of time it takes to do anything, it will essentially force manufacturers into producing more efficient designs. Hoovers certainly seem to blast out a lot of hot air, which is wasted energy, so little reductions here and there and some subtle changes to the designs of the components = more efficient cleaner that vacuums at just the same rate as previous vacuum cleaners. For example the dyson DC40 - A good vacuum cleaner - uses a 1100W motor - 500W within the new limit!

 

[jon0844]

I guess it's only increased fuel costs, and increased VED based on emissions, that is making people buy more economical motor vehicles because it seems that otherwise, people would all buy cars that did about 5MPG.

One day I'm sure I'll have an electric car, or a hybrid of some sort, but for now the next car I get will almost certainly have an engine that is between 1.4 and 2 litres and will be more powerful than my 2.5ltr turbo - and cost far less to tax than the £280 per year I currently pay.

Part of this will be to 'do my bit' for the environment. The other will be to save money. But, another reason will be that the new design is actually going to be better than what I've got now. All these things together make it a no brainer, and I am sure that it won't be long until people wonder why they rushed out to pay a crappy vacuum cleaner to take a stand, when they could have got something better for less.

 

[21C101]

That would only work if you take out the existing motor and replace it with one half as powerful leaving everything else the same. As has been posted many times now, this isn't going to double the amount of time it takes to do anything, it will essentially force manufacturers into producing more efficient designs. Hoovers certainly seem to blast out a lot of hot air, which is wasted energy, so little reductions here and there and some subtle changes to the designs of the components = more efficient cleaner that vacuums at just the same rate as previous vacuum cleaners. For example the dyson DC40 - A good vacuum cleaner - uses a 1100W motor - 500W within the new limit!

They will produce more efficient designs anyway (if they work) as that gives them a market advantage over those that don't.

Thats how the market works. If you want to help the market then lower VAT on efficient models.

It is the compulsion and banning that sticks in the craw, the [pretty well unelected in this case] state deciding it has the right to tell me what vacuum cleaner or lightbulb I can or cannot buy, while its functionaries meanwhile get ferried in large limousines.

Plus theyv'e botched (or corruptly tilted in favour of someone who lobbied them) the regulations, because tests are oly done empty and the suction once it starts to fill up is not tested. Thats why Dyson is so angry.

 

[NSEFAN]

They will produce more efficient designs anyway (if they work) as that gives them a market advantage over those that don't.

Thats how the market works. If you want to help the market then lower VAT on efficient models.

It is the compulsion and banning that sticks in the craw, the [pretty well unelected in this case] state deciding it has the right to tell me what vacuum cleaner or lightbulb I can or cannot buy, while its functionaries meanwhile get ferried in large limousines.

Plus theyv'e botched (or corruptly tilted in favour of someone who lobbied them) the regulations, because tests are oly done empty and the suction once it starts to fill up is not tested. Thats why Dyson is so angry.

In products like cars, a good MPG is a good selling point because cars cost lots of £££ to run. How many consumers actively consider power consumption in products like vacuum cleaners or their phone charger, etc?

A cheaper design may be less efficient but consumers don't really care if it only costs them a few pence more to run. However, the extra watts of power soon add up when you consider the billions of consumer products across the EU countries. Some regulation is needed to force manufacturers to make better products when market forces alone cannot do the job. If the regulations are badly thought out, then that's another issue.

 

[jon0844]

Mobile phones are being looked at too, in terms of battery life, but I believe the feeling is that industry is so competitive and battery life now a real selling point that it doesn't need regulation.

I suppose the car industry is now a lot like that. There are different VED bands based on emissions, and higher MPG means lower fuel bills, so there's now an incentive to produce better engines.

And in places where there isn't such costs and taxes, you might think it fine to still keep a gas guzzler. Think USA, although now they're finding fuel is getting more expensive and some states are very proactive on emissions (e.g. California).

 

[Emyr]

Ah but what is a Dyson Digital Motor?

Nobody knows... http://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/13087/what-is-a-digital-motor

I'd say a Dyson Digital Motor is a Brushless DC Motor.

When I've worked with Brushed DC motors, PWM has been the way to achieve speed control (variable average current) without lowering the voltage (hence torque). A "marketing executive" without technical understanding could see a PWM driver delivering square waves and call it a "digital" system.

Haven't used brushless motors for anything yet, but I expect you could drive a brushless motor with PWM, except you'd need some additional gubbins to keep the torque output smooth as you transition between phases.

 

[jon0844]

I've just checked the power of my incredibly powerful Dyson DC14 (first released in 2007 and bought not that long afterwards) and was surprised that it's just 1400W - so still compliant.

That makes me wonder even more what the fuss is about!

I saw last night on the TV that the Daily Mail is giving people some special offer on high-powered vacuum cleaners to 'beat the EU ban'. Seems like a fair few people are making good money out of this non-story.

 

[AM9]

I've just checked the power of my incredibly powerful Dyson DC14 (first released in 2007 and bought not that long afterwards) and was surprised that it's just 1400W - so still compliant.

That makes me wonder even more what the fuss is about!

I saw last night on the TV that the Daily Mail is giving people some special offer on high-powered vacuum cleaners to 'beat the EU ban'. Seems like a fair few people are making good money out of this non-story.

Its strange that apart from the few (Xeno)Europhobes around, few people have any problems with the 'EEC' as they still call it in respect of a free trade area. Those old enough can remember Alan Sugar on government information broadcasts explaining that it made sense to have common safety and other standards across the UK rather than the then practice of a hotch potch of national requirements. In those days there were even countries with the live wire as green and the earth wire as black!
I can understand some of the objections to the more federal issues in recent years, but as somebody here mentioned there are many improvements in both design and functionality of consumer products that just wouldn't have happened had the EU not taken industry to task.
Just look at the road vehicle situation. Until about 10 years ago, the US hadn't done much about fuel economy (and pollution) since the 1970's oil crisis. When they noticed that not only Far Eastern but European cars were preferred by buyers, the politicians started turning the screws on the manufacturers and engine sizes started to drop.
Industry has only one motive, i.e. profit. It needs to be pointed in the right direction by regulation on important issues like wanton energy waste of its products. A few, notably Dyson in the case of vacuum cleaners, seem to have the foresight to design for forthcoming regulations, rather than whine when the time runs out.

 

[Trog]

I've just checked the power of my incredibly powerful Dyson DC14 (first released in 2007 and bought not that long afterwards) and was surprised that it's just 1400W - so still compliant.

That makes me wonder even more what the fuss is about!

I saw last night on the TV that the Daily Mail is giving people some special offer on high-powered vacuum cleaners to 'beat the EU ban'. Seems like a fair few people are making good money out of this non-story.

The truth is probably somewhere between the doom and gloom merchants and your own upbeat assurance that the manufacturers will be able to make their machines do twice as much on the same power. No doubt the manufacturers or at least the better ones will have put a lot of design thought into improving the efficiency of their machines, but it also remains true that with equal thought levels you can do twice the work with twice the power.

So I would in the real world expect a slump in performance, but not as large as the cut in max power. Which may then be reduced over time as the designers think up new dodges to get a little bit more out of every watt.

It will be much the same as what happened with light bulbs and washing machines, the new low energy bulbs are not as good as the traditional bulbs, but are now much better than they were at first. The early compact tube lights it particular were dire and only fit for use in the loft or the bin.

It is also noticeable that our current washing machine which is from the same level in the range and from the same manufacturer as the one we had when we were first married, is not half as good at washing clothes as the original. Yes it saves water and energy but we want clean clothes not just damp dirty ones.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Being a bit older my eyes are not as good as they were and I find the energy saving bulbs are too dim, even when using ones rated as being equal to a given wattage of tungsten bulb. They are OK for background use in hallways bedrooms and lofts, but are useless if you want to read. So I end up with background energy saving and a halogen spot bulb. Then there is the fact that they contain Mercury very green.

Have you tried 'natural daylight' fluorescent bulbs? I use them a lot at home and they are very good (for the most part - quality does vary a bit between manufacturers). They basically give you a light quality much closer to what you'd get outside - so without the yellowish tinge of many bulbs. You may need to buy them online though - not all shops sell them.

 

[Trog]

Have you tried 'natural daylight' fluorescent bulbs? I use them a lot at home and they are very good (for the most part - quality does vary a bit between manufacturers). They basically give you a light quality much closer to what you'd get outside - so without the yellowish tinge of many bulbs. You may need to buy them online though - not all shops sell them.

My wife and I have quite a few of them for where we do our craft work, and very nice they are to. But at 57W a tube the power saving compared to a 60W bulb is rather slight.

 

[hassaanhc]

My wife and I have quite a few of them for where we do our craft work, and very nice they are to. But at 57W a tube the power saving compared to a 60W bulb is rather slight.

Ah, but a 58W fluorescent tube (5ft length) gives roughly 5000 lumens, whereas a 60W incandescent would give about 800 lumens. That means the brightness of a 58W 5ft tube is equal to roughly 6-7 60W bulbs!
I also prefer the cool-white (4000K) or daylight-white (6500K) lights, rather than the yellowy warm-white (2700K) colour (especially when they're quite dim). The middle 3500K "white" isn't very good either (was very happy when in my last uni room a tube over the desk in that colour was replaced by a cool-white one )

 

[jon0844]

Can you also dim the LED tubes?

Sent from my XT1068 using Tapatalk

 

[Trog]

Ah, but a 58W fluorescent tube (5ft length) gives roughly 5000 lumens, whereas a 60W incandescent would give about 800 lumens. That means the brightness of a 58W 5ft tube is equal to roughly 6-7 60W bulbs!
I also prefer the cool-white (4000K) or daylight-white (6500K) lights, rather than the yellowy warm-white (2700K) colour (especially when they're quite dim). The middle 3500K "white" isn't very good either (was very happy when in my last uni room a tube over the desk in that colour was replaced by a cool-white one )

Try fitting a 5' tube into a desk lamp, it may be more light but even a short tube, is harder to get into an ideal position, than a nice round light bulb *.
(* Lamp to the electrical pedants.)

 

[jon0844]

You can get LED bulbs with over 1000 lumens that will fit in a regular lamp socket, and be under 20W. That's a third of the energy straight away, and a brighter light, and lasting far longer to boot.

Prices of LED bulbs are now right down, and when retailers opt to sell only LED lights (as Ikea intends to do) then expect prices to be even lower.

Given the forum this thread is on, it's worth noting that a lot of railway stations are getting LED lighting. Some all new light installations, others new lights retrofitted. St Albans, for example, now has LED tubes on part (or all?) of the bridge. At Hatfield, the new bridge has the lighting within the hand rails, which is very neat and something that wouldn't have really been practical even with a fluorescent tube.

 

[hassaanhc]

Try fitting a 5' tube into a desk lamp, it may be more light but even a short tube, is harder to get into an ideal position, than a nice round light bulb *.
(* Lamp to the electrical pedants.)

Lmao fail, didn't realise you were talking about a desk lamp!

Think I should just get my coat

 

[table38]

 

[starrymarkb]

Hope that's a Hoover product in the picture or they may end up with letters from Lawyers. But yes - it seems this EU scare story in the media is just a way of getting rid of the old stock they wouldn't be able to sell. Mail readers will buy a high powered one that sucks poorly just to spite the EU

 

[Johnuk123]

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/508121/EU-warn-against-eating-toast

European bureaucrats have warned Britons off a crunchy, golden brown slice of toast.An EU watchdog says toast should be eaten only when it is a light brown colour or it could increase the risk of cancer.

Thought this would fit well in here because if you had a different thread for everything these idiots wanted to ban you would have several a day.

 

[ainsworth74]

To be fair that one's been doing the rounds for a while it's not just an EU thing I'm sure I read somewhere a bunch of doctors said the same thing.

 

[NSEFAN]

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/508...t-eating-toast

Never mind burnt toast, that article gave me cancer.

 

[jon0844]

Hope that's a Hoover product in the picture or they may end up with letters from Lawyers. But yes - it seems this EU scare story in the media is just a way of getting rid of the old stock they wouldn't be able to sell. Mail readers will buy a high powered one that sucks poorly just to spite the EU

Didn't Hoover lose it's trademark after the word became an accepted term for vacuum cleaner?

It's why TomTom tries so hard to stop me writing about 'TomTom' as a general reference to a satnav. No doubt it will impact on Google in due course, as it becomes an accepted term for doing a search.

 

[AM9]

Didn't Hoover lose it's trademark after the word became an accepted term for vacuum cleaner?

It's why TomTom tries so hard to stop me writing about 'TomTom' as a general reference to a satnav. No doubt it will impact on Google in due course, as it becomes an accepted term for doing a search.

It's strange that vendors dream of their products' names passing into common usage. Then when it happens, they complain.
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Never mind burnt toast, that article gave me cancer.

Even though there is no emoticon against that statement, I'm sure that genuine cancer sufferers will laugh like drains at your post.
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Can you also dim the LED tubes?

Sent from my XT1068 using Tapatalk

LEDs sold as 'dimmable' have different power converters sothat they can be dimmed with modern compatible dimmers. Normal ones just stay bright until they drop off at the lower end of adjustment.

 

[ainsworth74]

No doubt it will impact on Google in due course, as it becomes an accepted term for doing a search.

'in due course'? I would argue that it already is the accepted term for doing a search!

 

[NSEFAN]

Even though there is no emoticon against that statement, I'm sure that genuine cancer sufferers will laugh like drains at your post.

It was a reference to an internet meme, but I also happen to consider tabloids to be a cancerous blight on society.