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EU want to "harmonise" rail standards.

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A0wen

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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...opean-trains-entirely-on-the-wrong-track.html

"Britain has consistently been ahead of the game where EU railway legislation is concerned. We broke up a monolithic network, ran private trains and encouraged competition long before the EU told us to.

But even with the current convergence between Britain and Brussels on many railway matters, European legislation has caused far more problems for our railway network than would be expected, due to Brussels' obsession with breaking down national barriers. Having eliminated border crossings in the Schengen Area, the EU is determined to create a harmonised pan-European rail network similarly free from national boundaries.

The challenges faced by the EU in achieving this objective are immense – the rail systems of the 27 member states contain a bewildering variety of gauges (rail widths), loading gauges (clearance dimensions), coupling and electrification systems. None the less, a plethora of EU legislation has been produced that seeks to bring these diverse networks closer together by means of promoting international trains. The result, as is so often the case, is becoming increasingly detrimental to Britain.

For example, Interoperability Directive 2008/57EC aims to facilitate the operation of rolling stock across national frontiers by harmonising the member states' registration processes, thus reducing the amount of re-registration every time a locomotive or wagon is required to operate in a new member state for the first time. It superseded two other directives relating solely to international trains, which in spite of the very limited number of international trains operating in the UK, still cost us £80 million to implement.

This new directive is likely to extend its scope to cover all domestic services by 2012 – the aim being to encourage competition. However, the restricted clearances of Britain's rail network means that carriages built for service in France or Germany could not be shipped across and used to compete on British domestic services. But rolling stock used purely on British domestic services will none the less still have to comply with the EU rules.

Potentially more damaging is a European Commission proposal giving priority to international freight trains on certain trunk routes, including the West Coast Main Line. If implemented, it is estimated this proposal could add 10 per cent to passenger journey times; and 25 minutes to the London-Glasgow route, only a few years after a £9 billion upgrade to speed up services along this line. The idea that international freight trains should have priority over domestic passenger services makes neither economic nor operational sense.

International trains require international train drivers, and Directive 2007/59/EC creates a common European licensing scheme for train drivers, which among other things assesses language skills. Vital for Eurostar crews, but hardly relevant for a driver working exclusively on suburban trains in Glasgow or Yorkshire.

Then there is Europe's ambitious signalling scheme, the European Rail Traffic Management System (ERTMS). The one trial installation in Britain, on the Cambrian line in Wales, has fallen behind schedule and has cost £59 million for a single route – this is more than 10 per cent of the cost of fitting the entire network with the Track Protection and Warning System (TPWS) which, while not as sophisticated as ERTMS, has none the less, in conjunction with conventional signalling, delivered a network with an excellent safety record in recent years.

The longer Britain remains in the EU, the longer we will be locked into its thinking on railways. Even as things stand, with so few international trains ever likely to run in Britain compared with other member states, the benefits of regaining control of our railways are obvious. Surely the nation that gave railways to the world deserves the freedom to determine the direction that its own network should take. "


Looks like more madness from Brussels......
 
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Pumbaa

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Quite. I'm saving my full scathing response for tomorrow after some sleep.
 

jon0844

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As we're part of the EU and people want to have easier access to mainland Europe, I am sure many of the plans are good for us all - and surely there would be grants available for us to do certain changes?

And considering trains are much the same all around the world, certainly Europe, or could be (made by the same few manufacturers), I do wonder if this is a little bit of scaremongering?

As for language and communication, we could always argue that like the airlines, English becomes the standard form of rail communication around the whole of Europe?!
 

flymo

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Oh c'mon this will never happen, I mean they can't even get all the electrical sockets the same shape so what chance of getting the railways all the same.

Love the bit about the WCML.
 

jon0844

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Most of Europe uses the same two pin sockets, and we standardised voltages some time ago - we're all on, or very near, 230 volts.

Telephone sockets are a different story, mind!

Seriously though; we can, and we ultimately will, standardise things over time - and not just within the EU but globally. It makes sense, and doesn't have to have anything to do with local politics, policy or language (in case it starts the Daily Mail readers to suggest this will make us Brits lose our identity or independence!).

Let's look at this another way; what do WE want to be able to have our trains travelling into Europe? Clearly we only have one link at the moment (and for some time!) but who knows what will happen in the next 10, 20, 50 years...
 

jon0844

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We do earn grants from the EC for many projects, and that is paid out of money that we - and other members - pay in.

Of course, I have no idea on the actual figures - but the EU isn't all about making up rules or ripping off Britain!!
 

jon0844

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The DM certainly isn't always wrong, but while we pay loads in each year - we also get a lot back.

I am sure that if you re-wrote the original article in a positive way, talking about standardising trains and systems throughout Europe would have sounded like a good thing.

Anyway, this is now off topic and I am as keen as anyone to hear what people think who actually know the full story.
 

Old Timer

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The whole thing is absurd because you cannot run any of the European high speed trains through the Channel Tunnel as they do not meet the various operational and safety criteria required.

If another EU Country built such a train then fine but it would be wildly more expensive and non-standard.

Looking at ERTMS there is still much to do to make it work, and even then it will only work effectively in open areas where there is plain line. Complex junctions are beyond its capability and will require existing signalling for some time to come yet.

I remember a similar system being bandied about by Railtrack as the backbone of a new era of railway signalling. Those who had the experience saw that it would never work and said so, but in true Stalinist style they were ridiculed, marginalised and subsequently removed from the Industry in an extended "Night of the Long Knives" which saw an enormous volume of accumulated signalling experience excised, and from which the Industry has never recovered and what is more, never will.

The complete waste of money on the Cambrian is indicative of how horrendously expensive the costs of developing the system will be. That money would have been much better spent on enhancing the track and infrastructure along the route, which is so desperately needed.

Another issue is that neither Calais nor Paris (despite what the French may think) represent the financial power house of Europe and thus it is still quicker to fly if you are conducting real business within Europe, and that fact is unlikely to go away.

This ridiculous harmonisation requirement, like many things that emanate from the EU is neither appropriate nor sensible to the UK.

It is an unfortunate fact however the the EU has long since ceased being of benefit to the UK, and indeed many of its own "members", and more and more exists solely for the purpose of amassing greater and greater power for its unelected and unrepresentative administration.

I think if you do a little research you will find that the EU is actually the cause of much poverty elsewhere in the world by placing restrictions and criteria on certain types of goods and products which favour EU members to the detriment of non EU Countries. Sugar being one, bananas being another.

The latter being an excellent representation of much of what now comes out from the EU sausage machine.
 

starrymarkb

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Most of the more notorious EU regs were gold plated by UK gov. Take RVAR, that is actually being relaxed becuase of all the UK gold plating was beyond what was required.

There is talk of removing the requirement for the Split and join in the tunnel. It was found that it was quicker and safer to evacuate to the service tunnel. Transferring pax from one half of a Eurostar to the other took about 20 mins. Chances are the wires will have burnt through in that time.

Oh and will someone please join Schengen - after all Fortress Britain only really exists to keep Customs revenue up...
 

jon0844

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Customs are hardly ever around to check incoming trains (or planes) anyway - most of their successes are based on specific intelligence, not random stops.

Clearly the rest of Europe survives, and this (and the doing away with the need to split trains in the tunnel) would massively change the way we connect to Europe by train. When we get trains going on to Holland, Germany, Denmark or whatever (and it WILL happen - it's just a case of when) then it won't be outright speed but the many, many benefits of train travel for both leisure and business travel.

Planes will have to find a new source of fuel in the coming years, so one day, land based travel (i.e. trains) will have a huge advantage - although we'll need to up the speed of the trains somewhat!

And, yes, I am talking about 50 years from now - and longer.
 

TrainBrain185

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Perhaps the harmonisation of Rail Systems in mainland Europe is easier just by virtue they run the same direction the same as the road systems, ie, left hand side of the road. The only drawback is that European Border crossing trains need to be dual voltage or even multiple voltage equipped.
Allowing the UK to be fully open to through running of European vehicles would be a logistic nightmare purely that we run on "the right hand side of the road". Thats just for starters.........
Am I on the right track here with this thread?? Forgive me if not....
 

starrymarkb

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They don't though - France is a mix of left and right hand running. IIRC Belguim is left hand on HSLs and right hand on the classic lines. Germany is right hand.

Flyovers are provided at the existing borders (or if the line is quiet a crossover)

Multisystem locos already exist. the aim of ETCS is to reduce the signalling gear required on an MS loco. Apparently if you order a single voltage TRAXX from Bombardier you get a Quad Voltage minus a couple of Pantographs and with a software mod to lockout the unused voltages! Its cheaper with IGBT to build a standard pack and then not use parts of it... but 20% of the cost of a Multisystem loco is all the signalling gear!
 

jon0844

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It's common for a manufacturer to build something with more features than it ships with, locking out features or (particularly on cars) simply not connecting up every bit of wiring - so you can order very cheap parts to add normally expensive options.

I guess it makes sense with trains too, so perhaps we simply need to work towards ensuring future trains ordered can be adapted relatively easily. Older stock due to be phased out anyway hardly needs to be worried about, as nothing major is surely going to happen for a number of years anyway.
 

TrainBrain185

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They don't though - France is a mix of left and right hand running. IIRC Belguim is left hand on HSLs and right hand on the classic lines. Germany is right hand.

Flyovers are provided at the existing borders (or if the line is quiet a crossover)

Multisystem locos already exist. the aim of ETCS is to reduce the signalling gear required on an MS loco. Apparently if you order a single voltage TRAXX from Bombardier you get a Quad Voltage minus a couple of Pantographs and with a software mod to lockout the unused voltages! Its cheaper with IGBT to build a standard pack and then not use parts of it... but 20% of the cost of a Multisystem loco is all the signalling gear!
Cheers Mark, yep, I know lots of Euro rail traction has been multi voltage equipped for a long time. Did not know about about the left/right mix of running operation on some parts of the continent though....and right hand on others, ie Germany.
 

starrymarkb

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Something to add about delays and cost of ETCS on the cambrian. Nitwit Rail have stupidly contracted Alsando Breda... Some previous examples of AB Fail...

Danish IC4 - 5 years late only just entering service - DSB were very very close to canceling the order
Dutch HSL Zuid Albatross stock - Was supposed to be in squadron service by now - first set was only delivered this year!
Midland Metro - Supplied 16 unique trams, no two vehicles in the fleet are identical
 

Old Timer

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the EU needs to get its act together. There's a single currency (which Britain ought to be part of) and there needs to be a single language-English.
Tell that to the Irish who are part of the Euro area and are suffering horrendously because what is good for others is not good for them, in "one size fits all" Euroland.

The Black Wednesday crisis ONLY developed because Major insisted on shadowing the Dm (which is the base Euro currency), and when the Dm crashed so did the £. The only reason we pulled round was because we were independent and could float sterling at what we were worth, together with a large Gold Reserve, (now sold off at the point when Gold was at its lowest value by Brown).

Had we not been independent then we would have had to have suffered with the Germans.
 

Death

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Hmmm...Standardising railways across Europe would also mean everything having to work with everything else (In itself, very unlikely) and - In a nutshell - Would probabally require C1 to be adopted as the pan-European loading guage... :shock:

...Now try telling that to the Germans, the Spanish and the Portugese. DB use their double-decks to excess (They need to, with their passenger count!) and the Spanish and Portugese won't be at all happy about being "cramped" into a British guage train, given that they've been wide guage ever since they first started using railways about 150 years ago... ;)

In short: The EU will try it, and the EU will throw everyone's money at it...But if this ever actually comes to pass, then I'll be catching my holiday flights from Scotland Yard... :razz:
 
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