Eurostar "may cap services" EES data congestion?

[Howardh]

Eurostar may cap services due to post-Brexit passport checks, warns station owner

Facilities at St Pancras too ‘inadequate’ to process new checks without ‘hour-long queues’ at peak times, says operator HS1

www.theguardian.com

HS1, the owner and operator of the line and stations between London and the Channel tunnel, has raised concerns that planning for new Entry/Exit System (EES) checks at the London rail station are “severely inadequate”, and would lead to long delays and potential capping of services and passenger numbers.

The EES requires citizens from outside the EU or Schengen area to register before entering the zone.

While I'm still relatively in the dark over the new system, I assume our biometrics (fingerprints/iris scans) will be taken at the border as opposed to doing them on-line first (or something along those lines) and it's hardly surprising the borders at Dover, and of course Eurostar at St Pancras, simply won't be able to cope with the huge numbers requiring to give this data in the early days. Of course, many like myself will avoid travel until it all settles down which will help. But many have business, holidays and family to attend to.

Note in the article it suggests beforehand an agreement not to have UK citizens subject to this could be in place (in my opinion not with this current government in situ, will seem to be backing down on Brexit) but that would have to be recriprocal so EU/Schengen citizens can enter the UK with just their passes too.

It also suggested the EU and UK consider bespoke agreements, which would mean UK nationals being exempted from the collection and verification of biometric records.

So should Eurostar run fewer trains and reduce capacity from October onwards, with the result of loss of revenue, or carry on with their timetable and have passengers queuing for, well, hours in a already-busy station?

 

[geoffk]

So should Eurostar run fewer trains and reduce capacity from October onwards, with the result of loss of revenue, or carry on with their timetable and have passengers queuing for, well, hours in a already-busy station?

It's been said before that Eurostar's business model was based on freedom of movement for EU/EEA members. I shall be experiencing Eurostar in May for the first time since 2012, when trains were also serving Ebbsfleet, Ashford and Calais. The planned changes to immigration arrangements will no doubt mean longer queues unless mitigating measures can be agreed and this all comes down to the politics.

 

[Howardh]

It's been said before that Eurostar's business model was based on freedom of movement for EU/EEA members. I shall be experiencing Eurostar in May for the first time since 2012, when trains were also serving Ebbsfleet, Ashford and Calais. The planned changes to immigration arrangements will no doubt mean longer queues unless mitigating measures can be agreed and this all comes down to the politics.

Politics aside, I would imagine Eurostar would go down the route of offering a limited number of specific train advances for peak hours, so they have a reduced number of passengers needing to go through this protocol?

That would mean no walk-ups and tickets could be sold out very early so many business commuters would be put out, and of course there's the loss of revenue if the train isn't full when it could be.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

That would mean no walk-ups and tickets could be sold out very early so many business commuters would be put out, and of course there's the loss of revenue if the train isn't full when it could be.

I don't think Eurostar particularly wants to bankrupt themselves by binning off practically all of their revenue.

 

[Howardh]

I don't think Eurostar particularly wants to bankrupt themselves by binning off practically all of their revenue.

My theory is that many won't travel at all while the new system beds in, thus saving Eurostar having to cut services, but with people avoiding travel simply due to all this protocol they will lose revenue anyway (as will airlines, who fancied being stuck at Barcelona in a queue of Brits and non-EU's going through all this?) Also note it's starts just before, or around, half-term which is an added complication.

Wonder if it will be put back, yet again, to maybe new year 2025.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

As I understand it, the EES scan and fingerprint setup is a once-only event, so subsequent trips should be simpler and quicker than now.
It's the same in air and ferry ports, and you only have to have them done once to be put on the central Schengen database.
Harder for car/coach passengers having to present themselves individually for processing.
I doubt Eurostar will be the embarrassing exception here, more like queues at Folkestone/Dover and airports.

The upside should be a removal of passport-stamping after the initial wave of bureaucracy.
The system is similar to entering the USA where face scans and fingerprinting has been mandatory for years.
And if it's portrayed as "EU punishing the UK for Brexit", as the Express likes to do, we will be introducing similar controls for arriving passengers, including our version of EES/ETIAS.
"Taking back control of our borders", in the way we did it, had consequences.
None of it would have been necessary if we had remained in the single market, or negotiated a better deal in the Withdrawal Treaty.

Australia has an advance passenger information system, linked to visa applications, which means you can navigate e-passport gates in a seamless way on arrival.

 

[Howardh]

As I understand it, the EES scan and fingerprint setup is a once-only event, so subsequent trips should be simpler and quicker than now.
It's the same in air and ferry ports, and you only have to have them done once to be put on the central Schengen database.
Harder for car/coach passengers having to present themselves individually for processing.
I doubt Eurostar will be the embarrassing exception here, more like queues at Folkestone/Dover and airports.

The upside should be a removal of passport-stamping after the initial wave of bureaucracy.
The system is similar to entering the USA where face scans and fingerprinting has been mandatory for years.
And if it's portrayed as "EU punishing the UK for Brexit", as the Express likes to do, we will be introducing similar controls for arriving passengers, including our version of EES/ETIAS.
"Taking back control of our borders", in the way we did it, had consequences.
None of it would have been necessary if we had remained in the single market, or negotiated a better deal in the Withdrawal Treaty.

Australia has an advance passenger information system, linked to visa applications, which means you can navigate e-passport gates in a seamless way on arrival.

It is straying off-topic, but eventually physical passports will be replaced by this digital information, however I still think those passports will be required to check in hotels etc.

On-topic I think the worry is the immediate consequences of hundreds of thousands of travellers having to go through this, basically all in one go, which is why Eurostar/Dover are so worried; especially as I would assume more travel from the UK into the EU/Schengen than any other country which is also outside EU/Schengen. Also we will have to go through this twice I suppose, firstly this new EES system, and then shortly after the new ETIAS will also come in, probably slowing down those of us already profiled!

As you rightly point out, if we were still in the EU or at least the Single Market, like the Republic of Ireland, none of this would be necessary. However we are where we are and Eurostar have to discriminate between UK citizens who will need to give this data, and those with EU/Sch passports (like Ireland) who won't and can travel through seamlessly. One line for them, one line for us!

 

[Recessio]

Is there any chance they could have some service starting at other stations, to reduce the queues at St Pancras? Perhaps at Stratford International, Ebbsfleet or Ashford?

 

[ThameslinkUser]

No

 

[Snow1964]

Is there any chance they could have some service starting at other stations, to reduce the queues at St Pancras? Perhaps at Stratford International, Ebbsfleet or Ashford?

Probably won't do it.

But really there is nothing to stop Eurostar putting on 4 trains per hour as originally planned at busy times as agreed by UK and French Governments in early 1990s. (and about 10-15 years ago were running 23 trains to Paris on Fridays plus the Bruxelles and Eurodisney service, about 35 trains per day each way on Fridays)

It is Border Force staff that do passports, not Eurostar staff. But it doesn't really help Eurostar if they end up having to rebook loads of passengers because of check in delays meaning passengers missing their train.

Bit of a chicken and egg, Eurostar would probably like revenue of selling 20,000 tickets each way, as used to do on busy days. But St Pancras can't cope without the other stations taking some of the load, and is looking like would prefer empty seats for easy life, rather than filling bums on seats for more revenue.

 

[nickswift99]

Probably won't do it.

But really there is nothing to stop Eurostar putting on 4 trains per hour as originally planned at busy times as agreed by UK and French Governments in early 1990s. (and about 10-15 years ago were running 23 trains to Paris on Fridays plus the Bruxelles and Eurodisney service, about 35 trains per day each way on Fridays)

It is Border Force staff that do passports, not Eurostar staff. But it doesn't really help Eurostar if they end up having to rebook loads of passengers because of check in delays meaning passengers missing their train.

Bit of a chicken and egg, Eurostar would probably like revenue of selling 20,000 tickets each way, as used to do on busy days. But St Pancras can't cope without the other stations taking some of the load, and is looking like would prefer empty seats for easy life, rather than filling bums on seats for more revenue.

Border Force do not perform exit checks routinely at St Pancras. Under a bi-lateral treaty, passport control is enforced by the French (usually the Police aux Frontieres), while border controls at Paris and Brussels are enforced by UK Border Force (notwithstanding those travelling from Brussels to Lille).

 

[Howardh]

Could Waterloo not be re-re-configured to take some of the Eurostar trains again, just to take the pressure off the first few months?

 

[HarryF]

Could Waterloo not be re-re-configured to take some of the Eurostar trains again, just to take the pressure off the first few months?

Not easily, no. The former check-in area has been redeveloped and is now a shopping area, I believe.
Plus, only the original Eurostar trains (Class 373) can fit on conventional UK railway lines, and they have also had their 750vDC equipment removed.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Could Waterloo not be re-re-configured to take some of the Eurostar trains again, just to take the pressure off the first few months?

The space is fairly fully used for domestic trains now - and the fuss of installing facilities for just a brief period wouldn't be seen as worth it. Furthermore - the route to the Channel from Waterloo requires a third rail pick up, and current Eurostar trains don't have that. All in all this is not likely to happen! Surely reopening Ashford, or using Stratford, it more likely (or less unlikely) than using Waterloo again.

 

[Goldfish62]

The space is fairly fully used for domestic trains now - and the fuss of installing facilities for just a brief period wouldn't be seen as worth it. Furthermore - the route to the Channel from Waterloo requires a third rail pick up, and current Eurostar trains don't have that. All in all this is not likely to happen! Surely reopening Ashford, or using Stratford, it more likely (or less unlikely) than using Waterloo again.

I think there's more chance of me flying to the moon next week than Waterloo P20-24 hosting Eurostars again!

 

[Howardh]

I think there's more chance of me flying to the moon next week than Waterloo P20-24 hosting Eurostars again!

So not even a diversion possibility then?!

Considering the new protocols come in in under 8 months, that hardly leaves time to develop a sterile immigration/security area at Stratford International? Really Ashford needs to become international again if it's to take off stress on St Pancras.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

So not even a diversion possibility then?!

Considering the new protocols come in in under 8 months, that hardly leaves time to develop a sterile immigration/security area at Stratford International? Really Ashford needs to become international again if it's to take off stress on St Pancras.

None of these 'suggestions' are going to be considered, let alone will happen.

 

[trebor79]

So not even a diversion possibility then?!

No! For the reasons stated. The trains can't use the third rail. The trains probably aren't even cleared to use the line to Waterloo even if they could use third rail. Are they fitted with TPWS etc, probably not.There are no border control facilities at Waterloo any more and that area is now full of shops etc.

 

[Howardh]

None of these 'suggestions' are going to be considered, let alone will happen.

Maybe they will be able to process passengers away from the station; or perhaps at that station but in a different location? Go to a machine and it takes your details and scans your passport, job done; in fact you could do that without even wishing to travel overseas, just do it for future use? Would need supervisors to ensure your details match your passport (ie to prevent fraud) but must be possible?

Are there any large but empty units at St Pancras which could be used as a processing centre away from Eurostar?

No! For the reasons stated. The trains can't use the third rail. The trains probably aren't even cleared to use the line to Waterloo even if they could use third rail. Are they fitted with TPWS etc, probably not.There are no border control facilities at Waterloo any more and that area is now full of shops etc.

I understand the technicalities, but just one thing, if it were possible to divert an Eurostar there (or any other station) border facilities would be irrelevant as immigration checks and stamps have already been done. That seems to be an issue with Eurostar, one line and if it's blocked all the other trains have no escape route, unless it's possible to transfer from up to down and bypass the obstruction.

 

[cactustwirly]

Maybe they will be able to process passengers away from the station; or perhaps at that station but in a different location? Go to a machine and it takes your details and scans your passport, job done; in fact you could do that without even wishing to travel overseas, just do it for future use? Would need supervisors to ensure your details match your passport (ie to prevent fraud) but must be possible?

Are there any large but empty units at St Pancras which could be used as a processing centre away from Eurostar?


I understand the technicalities, but just one thing, if it were possible to divert an Eurostar there (or any other station) border facilities would be irrelevant as immigration checks and stamps have already been done. That seems to be an issue with Eurostar, one line and if it's blocked all the other trains have no escape route, unless it's possible to transfer from up to down and bypass the obstruction.

The issue is that the international passengers will have to be segregated from the domestic passengers for passport checks.

The trains can't run over classic lines, as they don't have AWS or TPWS and I don't think there's a connection anymore.

You'd be spending millions on a hypothetical problem, if services are withdrawn there are plenty of flights from Heathrow and Gatwick to Paris/Brussels anyway

 

[AlbertBeale]

I understand the technicalities, but just one thing, if it were possible to divert an Eurostar there (or any other station) border facilities would be irrelevant as immigration checks and stamps have already been done. That seems to be an issue with Eurostar, one line and if it's blocked all the other trains have no escape route, unless it's possible to transfer from up to down and bypass the obstruction.

There always used to be an emergency diversion option - during Waterloo terminal days - so that if incoming trains couldn't use Waterloo they'd go to Kensington Olympia; this could be accessed both by trains inbound from the tunnel and from Waterloo [in both cases via the maze of interconnections around Clapham Junction]; it was in any case en route to where the trains were stabled in Waterloo days. I presume that, currently, if a train was inbound to St P but the station wasn't accessible, the emergency option would be to terminate at Ashford or Stratford. (There is a track connection from the StP-bound tunnel onto the North London Line which is theory could be an escape route for a train finding at the last moment it couldn't go into St P ... except that that track isn't wired up (nor signalled I believe).

 

[Howardh]

The issue is that the international passengers will have to be segregated from the domestic passengers for passport checks.

Where? Does Eurostar have any domestic travellers (ie from Brussels to Lille)?

If an incoming Eurostar were to stop at Statford in an emergency and pax alight there, no checks are necessary as both (F/B and UK immigration checks) have been done in France or Belgium. Just get off and walk away as you would travelling the other way once on the continent.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No, not on Eurostar as the checks have been done before boarding, both F/B/NL followed by UK immigration at their end; once you arrive you simply walk out of the station. So if Eurostar was diverted to any other UK station, eg Stratford, they could safely allow everyone off as they have ben processed.

Could be argued that once the UK officials in Brussels have scanned your passport, and you go to the waiting lounge, technically you're in UK despite being on Belgian soil! However any crimes committed there would be dealt with by the Belgian authorities. My only trip so far on Eurostar via Brussels meant I had to go through both "borders" in Brussels station and I asked the lady immigration official "am I now in Britain, technically?" and her reply was "Yes...and no..."!

Isn't it the case that for the vehicle shuttle service a treaty was signed that actually legally puts a small area of Folkestone in France?

 

[Howardh]

Isn't it the case that for the vehicle shuttle service a treaty was signed that actually legally puts a small area of Folkestone in France?

Yes, that would be the case, between having your passport stamped by the French and boarding the train, you're technically on French soil! and I suppose the UK exists in Calais (Frethun) too! I have edited my post as I misread the original post, not sure where "domestic" fitted in so I rejigged my question.
If a crime were committed under the tunnel on Eurostar, who would attend to it? English police before half-way, or is it done on direction or who owns the train?

 

[mrmartin]

Eurostar may cap services due to post-Brexit passport checks, warns station owner

Facilities at St Pancras too ‘inadequate’ to process new checks without ‘hour-long queues’ at peak times, says operator HS1

www.theguardian.com

While I'm still relatively in the dark over the new system, I assume our biometrics (fingerprints/iris scans) will be taken at the border as opposed to doing them on-line first (or something along those lines) and it's hardly surprising the borders at Dover, and of course Eurostar at St Pancras, simply won't be able to cope with the huge numbers requiring to give this data in the early days. Of course, many like myself will avoid travel until it all settles down which will help. But many have business, holidays and family to attend to.

This is really a one time thing. While it will be painful at the introduction; it will AFIAK enable access for non-EU citizens to use egates (the EU is in the dark ages with this only-eu-citizens-can-use-egates approach). This could potentially massively increase capacity at StP etc as you could have egates (mostly) instead of manual checks longer term.

Note in the article it suggests beforehand an agreement not to have UK citizens subject to this could be in place (in my opinion not with this current government in situ, will seem to be backing down on Brexit) but that would have to be reciprocal so EU/Schengen citizens can enter the UK with just their passes too.

AFIAK there are no plans to collect biometrics of incoming passengers, nor do we have any exit checks whatsoever for anyone (unlike the EU/Schengen area). So I can't see how it wouldn't be reciprocal if the EU backs down on this for UK citizens?! NB: EU citizens can use UK egates, the same is not the case for UK citizens in the EU (atm). (I am aware some countries allow UK/non-EU citizens egate access in some cases at select airports, but it still requires a manual check and stamp after).

 

[Howardh]

AFIAK there are no plans to collect biometrics of incoming passengers, nor do we have any exit checks whatsoever for anyone (unlike the EU/Schengen area). So I can't see how it wouldn't be reciprocal if the EU backs down on this for UK citizens?! NB: EU citizens can use UK egates, the same is not the case for UK citizens in the EU (atm). (I am aware some countries allow UK/non-EU citizens egate access in some cases at select airports, but it still requires a manual check and stamp after).

It is a bit complicated with inbound passengers - but the UK will be bringing in it's own EES system (not sure if biometrics will be involved) with visa waiver; so at airports and Eurostar those entering the UK with UK and Irish passports will have one set of checks, and those from elsewhere another more stringent set of checks.

So, yes, the UK and EU could sit down and remove these barriers and we go back to the old system of just passport/ID card checks inbound for UK and EU/EEA citizens which would speed things up dramatically at Eurostar, airports and ports. However that wouldn't discriminate those coming for tourism, and those coming to seek work, however that was the case when we were in the EU and would be if we re-joined the single market.

Anyhow, I note that places like Malaga airport have a bank of more than two dozen new biometric e-gates which will primarily be used by Brits flying there; so if we dropped these new protocols then a lot has been spent already throughout Europe to cater for us, they may demand compensation!! But as far as I'm aware, there are none (outbound) capable of taking biometrics at St Pancras (the French immigration/passport checks) in place yet - although I may be wrong?

 

[Chester1]

Eurostar may cap services due to post-Brexit passport checks, warns station owner

Facilities at St Pancras too ‘inadequate’ to process new checks without ‘hour-long queues’ at peak times, says operator HS1

www.theguardian.com

While I'm still relatively in the dark over the new system, I assume our biometrics (fingerprints/iris scans) will be taken at the border as opposed to doing them on-line first (or something along those lines) and it's hardly surprising the borders at Dover, and of course Eurostar at St Pancras, simply won't be able to cope with the huge numbers requiring to give this data in the early days. Of course, many like myself will avoid travel until it all settles down which will help. But many have business, holidays and family to attend to.

Note in the article it suggests beforehand an agreement not to have UK citizens subject to this could be in place (in my opinion not with this current government in situ, will seem to be backing down on Brexit) but that would have to be recriprocal so EU/Schengen citizens can enter the UK with just their passes too.



So should Eurostar run fewer trains and reduce capacity from October onwards, with the result of loss of revenue, or carry on with their timetable and have passengers queuing for, well, hours in a already-busy station?

Eurostar will run with fewer passengers per train, they had to until recently.

The idea that the government could have or still could get an agreement to exempt Brits from EES and ETIAS is Guardian bias and isn't grounded in any statements by the EU. They have not given any indication they would do such an agreement with third country. It would undermine the whole system. There is more to governance than transport policy. Its very useful for law enforcement in both the EU and UK to have the fingerprints and photograph of every foreigner entering their territory.

None of it would have been necessary if we had remained in the single market, or negotiated a better deal in the Withdrawal Treaty.

Australia has an advance passenger information system, linked to visa applications, which means you can navigate e-passport gates in a seamless way on arrival.

There is some support in the EU for UK to join the single market and there was a bit more support for us staying in it but it would have needed unanimous support for all 27 remaining members and that wasn’t likely. The EEA was designed for a group of small countries and the UK has an economy about three times larger than the four "second countries" combined. Single market membership got media attention because pretty much every bloc in parliament and the media were negotiating with each other and not listening to what the EU was prepared to offer. They gave us three options a) don't leave b) the customs union negoiated with Thersea May (third country for immigration purposes) and c) a "hard brexit". Currently the opinion polls indicate the most popular option is rejoining the EU but staying out of the Euro and Schengen and its getting pushed by sections of the media again. The EU has made clear if we applied to rejoin it would be on same terms as the last 12 countries to join the EU. Negotiating with ourselves again.

The only flexibilities on border arrangements on offer from the EU are veterinary and SPS agreement and assuming Labour win the general election it should get done. A good opportunity for busineses but useless for travelers. Eurostar will have to reduce seats sold per train until most passengers are registered.

It is a bit complicated with inbound passengers - but the UK will be bringing in it's own EES system (not sure if biometrics will be involved) with visa waiver; so at airports and Eurostar those entering the UK with UK and Irish passports will have one set of checks, and those from elsewhere another more stringent set of checks.

So, yes, the UK and EU could sit down and remove these barriers and we go back to the old system of just passport/ID card checks inbound for UK and EU/EEA citizens which would speed things up dramatically at Eurostar, airports and ports. However that wouldn't discriminate those coming for tourism, and those coming to seek work, however that was the case when we were in the EU and would be if we re-joined the single market.

Anyhow, I note that places like Malaga airport have a bank of more than two dozen new biometric e-gates which will primarily be used by Brits flying there; so if we dropped these new protocols then a lot has been spent already throughout Europe to cater for us, they may demand compensation!! But as far as I'm aware, there are none (outbound) capable of taking biometrics at St Pancras (the French immigration/passport checks) in place yet - although I may be wrong?

UK ETA launched in November for Qataris and five more nationalities join this month. The EU hasn't expressed any interest in exempting us. There are proposals relating to traveling on national ID but that wouldn't change registration requirements for ETIAS even if we had ID cards.

 

[mrmartin]

It is a bit complicated with inbound passengers - but the UK will be bringing in it's own EES system (not sure if biometrics will be involved) with visa waiver; so at airports and Eurostar those entering the UK with UK and Irish passports will have one set of checks, and those from elsewhere another more stringent set of checks.

So, yes, the UK and EU could sit down and remove these barriers and we go back to the old system of just passport/ID card checks inbound for UK and EU/EEA citizens which would speed things up dramatically at Eurostar, airports and ports. However that wouldn't discriminate those coming for tourism, and those coming to seek work, however that was the case when we were in the EU and would be if we re-joined the single market.

Anyhow, I note that places like Malaga airport have a bank of more than two dozen new biometric e-gates which will primarily be used by Brits flying there; so if we dropped these new protocols then a lot has been spent already throughout Europe to cater for us, they may demand compensation!! But as far as I'm aware, there are none (outbound) capable of taking biometrics at St Pancras (the French immigration/passport checks) in place yet - although I may be wrong?

You're getting mixed up. I think you mean ETIAS, not EES. We are bringing in our own version of that, but there is no plan to bring in exit checks along the lines of EES (every airport would have to be completely redesigned for one). EES and ETIAS while.happening at the similar (but not same) time are not really the same thing at all.

Also EES isn't just a purely UK thing - it's for other non EU nations too!

As I said before EES has the potential to get rid a lot of the space constraints at StP and other terminals. Really Eurostar should be happy about this - some short term pain for longer term massive gain in potential passenger numbers, but my belief is Eurostar love to jump on any potential problem to keep services to a minimum and ticket prices sky high (unsurprisingly given this gives them maximum profits to pay back COVID debt with).

 

[NotATrainspott]

Can Eurostar charge different fares depending on whether someone has already been registered, or doesn't need to? The result of capped services will be higher fares but there are plenty of people who will be just as fast or faster at getting through border control after it is implemented. A few months of most Brits being discouraged from making unnecessary trips to Paris but no such restriction on French folk visiting London doesn't really seem any worse than the default.

 

[infobleep]

It is straying off-topic, but eventually physical passports will be replaced by this digital information, however I still think those passports will be required to check in hotels etc.

On-topic I think the worry is the immediate consequences of hundreds of thousands of travellers having to go through this, basically all in one go, which is why Eurostar/Dover are so worried; especially as I would assume more travel from the UK into the EU/Schengen than any other country which is also outside EU/Schengen. Also we will have to go through this twice I suppose, firstly this new EES system, and then shortly after the new ETIAS will also come in, probably slowing down those of us already profiled!

As you rightly point out, if we were still in the EU or at least the Single Market, like the Republic of Ireland, none of this would be necessary. However we are where we are and Eurostar have to discriminate between UK citizens who will need to give this data, and those with EU/Sch passports (like Ireland) who won't and can travel through seamlessly. One line for them, one line for us!

I do hope there are two lines as I found out last year I was an Irish citzen. I knew I could apply to be one but wasn't aware I already was one. I just needed to prove it.

My mum was born in Ireland and I was born before 2006. I am currently awaiting my Irish passport to be posted to me and in March my UK one will expire. It won't be renewed as I don't require two.