Eurostar "may cap services" EES data congestion?

[popeter45]

if the hassle is more to do with innitial biometric collections with subsiquent usage quicker would it make sence for eurostar/gov to rent somwhere either in St Pancreas or elsewhere to allow people to do the biometrics well before travel (i.e. days or even weeks)?

 

[Taunton]

The idea that the government could have or still could get an agreement to exempt Brits from EES and ETIAS is Guardian bias and isn't grounded in any statements by the EU.

The funny thing is the EU will nevertheless live quite happily with UK in Northern Ireland going over the border to the EU in Ireland without the slightest border check at all.

 

[Howardh]

Just to clarify, our system already started is the ETA, which will extend eventually to Europeans but not the Irish https://www.gov.uk/guidance/apply-for-an-electronic-travel-authorisation-eta#apply-for-an-eta
This will be instead of a visa for some, ie tourists.


I wonder, should Gibraltar join Schengen, whether their (our!) citizens will also be subject to our ETA?

if the hassle is more to do with innitial biometric collections with subsiquent usage quicker would it make sence for eurostar/gov to rent somwhere either in St Pancreas or elsewhere to allow people to do the biometrics well before travel (i.e. days or even weeks)?

Which is something I alluded to, maybe there are unused units that could be rented in St Pancras?

 

[trebor79]

I understand the technicalities, but just one thing, if it were possible to divert an Eurostar there

It isn't. End of story.

 

[LBMPSB]

Totally redevelop the lower floor at St Pancras so that it all becomes part of the Eurostar Terminal. Will never happen because the retail outlets are seen as more important revenue wise, than providing better service to the passenger. Entrance opposite Thameslink gate line, and other end at London Underground. It is a vast area that could be redesigned and put to better use to reduce crowding.

As many have said, Eurostar was built on the fact the UK was still part of Europe, it was never envisaged that we would come out of Europe, and thus the existing design is no longer able to cope. The best option would be for the Government to negoiate a Schengen type agreement to bring back freedom of movement, but then no Government will do that because they would be admitting a failure of being outside of Europe. Nothing will be done with St Pancras, in the current climate they cannot even get the funding for a new High Speed line built with new facilities at Euston just along the road. They will just wait it out and see how new passport facilities work and evolve.

 

[geoffk]

Border Force do not perform exit checks routinely at St Pancras. Under a bi-lateral treaty, passport control is enforced by the French (usually the Police aux Frontieres), while border controls at Paris and Brussels are enforced by UK Border Force (notwithstanding those travelling from Brussels to Lille).

When I came back from Brussels in 2012, calling at Lille, there were exit checks at St. Pancras which no-one was expecting. After some enquiries, I was told that this was to catch anyone with a Brussels - Lille ticket who had stayed on to London. Is this still happening?

 

[mrmartin]

if the hassle is more to do with innitial biometric collections with subsiquent usage quicker would it make sence for eurostar/gov to rent somwhere either in St Pancreas or elsewhere to allow people to do the biometrics well before travel (i.e. days or even weeks)?

Yes this would be the sensible thing for the EU/France to do.

 

[Taunton]

I am disappointed that Eurostar, very gradually, just seems to be losing interest in being a key international travel medium. Happening slowly over time, but in particular the recent merger with Thalys seems to have just left it as an outlying branch from an operation mainly focused on the Paris to Amsterdam route. The initial Eurostar passenger number projections have never been met to any extent, the trains have always seem under-employed, and a large part of the potential market, such as on-the-day day leisure returns is completely ignored - it's only two hours to Paris (or to London for Parisiennes).

The space at St Pancras seems, if anything, smaller and more cramped than what was available at Waterloo, where at least their accommodation was used in a useful manner rather than stupidities like Champagne Bars where nobody ever seems to be. There was no excuse for the experiences from Waterloo not being carried forward and improved at St Pancras. Unlike some, who are so eulogistic about what was done to the old station interior, I think they ruined it ...

 

[jumble]

The funny thing is the EU will nevertheless live quite happily with UK in Northern Ireland going over the border to the EU in Ireland without the slightest border check at all.

And Switzerland /France Germany where one can simply take a tram across the border in Basel and Geneva without anyone checking anything.

 

[mrmartin]

I agree, far too much emphasis being put on brexit when in reality StP was a poor design for the number of passengers.

Even if we had stayed in the EU there would have been limited scope to run more peak time services to eg Frankfurt if DB had wanted to because of space constraints. It was always extremely congested at peak times IMO.

 

[Bletchleyite]

New thread to discuss options to modify St Pancras here:

St Pancras - could the layout be improved for Eurostar?

I am disappointed that Eurostar, very gradually, just seems to be losing interest in being a key international travel medium. Happening slowly over time, but in particular the recent merger with Thalys seems to have just left it as an outlying branch from an operation mainly focused on the Paris...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[thomalex]

Totally redevelop the lower floor at St Pancras so that it all becomes part of the Eurostar Terminal. Will never happen because the retail outlets are seen as more important revenue wise, than providing better service to the passenger. Entrance opposite Thameslink gate line, and other end at London Underground. It is a vast area that could be redesigned and put to better use to reduce crowding.

As many have said, Eurostar was built on the fact the UK was still part of Europe, it was never envisaged that we would come out of Europe, and thus the existing design is no longer able to cope. The best option would be for the Government to negoiate a Schengen type agreement to bring back freedom of movement, but then no Government will do that because they would be admitting a failure of being outside of Europe. Nothing will be done with St Pancras, in the current climate they cannot even get the funding for a new High Speed line built with new facilities at Euston just along the road. They will just wait it out and see how new passport facilities work and evolve.

I think it's worth noting that these EES border checks would have still have to been implemented if we'd remained in the EU as we were always outside the Schengen area.

Anyway with these delays surely it's finally time for Stratford International to live up to its name. Add an additional passport check here.

 

[Taunton]

I have written before that although we live in Canary Wharf in inner London, from whose high buildings you can just see the St Pancras rooftop, in the days of Ebbsfleet we found it notably more convenient, and quicker, to use that - just a few traffic lights between the two, park next to the station building, etc. However, it always seemed virtually deserted, the check-in, border and security staffs (three separate sets of course and no job sharing) always seemed so under-employed, and a complete opposite of the crush at St Pancras. I never saw the floorspace allocated to Eurostar in the two terminals, but would not be surprised if they were equal, or even Ebbsfleet had more.

Every single time we returned we found non-UK passengers trying to disembark onto the platform at Ebbsfleet, thinking they had arrived in London, and had to correct them and put them back on. I presume the staff had some standard procedure for dealing with this.

 

[Howardh]

I am disappointed that Eurostar, very gradually, just seems to be losing interest in being a key international travel medium. Happening slowly over time, but in particular the recent merger with Thalys seems to have just left it as an outlying branch from an operation mainly focused on the Paris to Amsterdam route. The initial Eurostar passenger number projections have never been met to any extent, the trains have always seem under-employed, and a large part of the potential market, such as on-the-day day leisure returns is completely ignored - it's only two hours to Paris (or to London for Parisiennes).

The space at St Pancras seems, if anything, smaller and more cramped than what was available at Waterloo, where at least their accommodation was used in a useful manner rather than stupidities like Champagne Bars where nobody ever seems to be. There was no excuse for the experiences from Waterloo not being carried forward and improved at St Pancras. Unlike some, who are so eulogistic about what was done to the old station interior, I think they ruined it ...

Is there a worry that not only passenger numbers dwindle (both ways, as I can see EU's now wishing to obtain passports to visit the UK where they just use ID cards now + future profiling) and fewer goods trains passing through, that Eurostar/tunnel goes bankrupt and the tunnel becomes a white elephant? Can Eurostar become bankrupt or are governments (any colour) expected to prop them up?

But as alluded to, the tunnel and Eurostar were planned when we had free movement of people and goods, and there seemed to be no thought given to "what happens if we lose both?" and suddenly we are faced with having to find space for the biometrics to be taken etc where there is none.

Think the only answer is to do them off-site, which I suppose could be done anywhere in the UK, multiple places. But that requires putting the machinery in and officials to monitor them. I can envisage a system where cities have centres where you go to do your biometrics, make an appointment and have it done. But the cost....

 

[mrmartin]

I think it's worth noting that these EES border checks would have still have to been implemented if we'd remained in the EU as we were always outside the Schengen area.

Anyway with these delays surely it's finally time for Stratford International to live up to its name. Add an additional passport check here.

No - it doesn't apply to EU citizens, and I assume EEA/Swiss (who have full freedom of movement rights).

The EES exists because it is actually very difficult AFIAK for the EU to know who is actually overstaying the 90 in 180 limit. As far as I'm aware, there is no way for a border officer in eg Spain to check other EU databases of who has arrived and left. I suspect it is trivial to get round the 90 day limit by flying in and out of different countries - the only check is stamps but they tend to do these very quickly at least for UK citizens and I'm not convinced they would notice overstays, at least all the time (they are often barely readable too). I could be wrong on this though.

I did have it confirmed to me at Oslo airport that they cannot check my passport for arrivals in other EU nations (I'm not sure if this is a Norway peculiarity though). I have permanent residency in an EU country, but during Brexit I didn't have my residents permit issued, which caused loads of problems like this.

 

[Howardh]

I think it's worth noting that these EES border checks would have still have to been implemented if we'd remained in the EU as we were always outside the Schengen area.

No; EU citizens would not be subject to these checks regardless of Schengen. You WOULD have to show your passport or ID card, but that's all - no stamping etc. The proof of this is Ireland, the Republic's citizens will not be subject to profiling/biometrics despite not being in Schengen.

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/the-eu-entry-exit-system-and-eu-travel-authorisation-system/#:~:text=European%20Travel%20Information%20and%20Authorisation%20System%20(ETIAS),-EES%20will%20work&text=ETIAS%20will%20apply%20to%20British,four%20non-EU%20Schengen%20countries.

Ireland will not be operating either EES or the ETIAS system (see below). However, neither of these systems will apply to Irish passport-holders when travelling to EU or Schengen countries.

 

[mrmartin]

Is there a worry that not only passenger numbers dwindle (both ways, as I can see EU's now wishing to obtain passports to visit the UK where they just use ID cards now + future profiling) and fewer goods trains passing through, that Eurostar/tunnel goes bankrupt and the tunnel becomes a white elephant? Can Eurostar become bankrupt or are governments (any colour) expected to prop them up?

But as alluded to, the tunnel and Eurostar were planned when we had free movement of people and goods, and there seemed to be no thought given to "what happens if we lose both?" and suddenly we are faced with having to find space for the biometrics to be taken etc where there is none.

Think the only answer is to do them off-site, which I suppose could be done anywhere in the UK, multiple places. But that requires putting the machinery in and officials to monitor them. I can envisage a system where cities have centres where you go to do your biometrics, make an appointment and have it done. But the cost....

I think you are thinking way too much into this. Eurostar passenger numbers have recovered to pre covid/pre brexit numbers. They will continue to grow, especially if new entrants actually get going.

There will be an awkward summer for EES processing, both at airports and eurostar. After that things will be basically the same/better as before Brexit, because of much higher use of egates by all non-EU passengers (including UK).

Car ferries are a real problem as there is no real space to do fingerprinting and I suspect even after the initial phase there will be issues because of this - everyone needs to get out the car etc. There is no such problem for trains or planes though, as it can be done quickly at eGates.

 

[m0ffy]

The funny thing is the EU will nevertheless live quite happily with UK in Northern Ireland going over the border to the EU in Ireland without the slightest border check at all.

Because ETIAS/EES is a Schengen project. Ireland forms part of the Common Travel Area - effectively a micro Schengen comprising the UK, Ireland, Isle of Man and the Channel Islands. People travelling from Ireland to the Schengen area are still subject to immigration checks to maintain the external security of the zone.

 

[Howardh]

Because ETIAS/EES is a Schengen project. Ireland forms part of the Common Travel Area - effectively a micro Schengen comprising the UK, Ireland, Isle of Man and the Channel Islands. People travelling from Ireland to the Schengen area are still subject to immigration checks to maintain the external security of the zone.

Yes, that's correct, but those immigrations checks are merely a glance/swipe of their passport. Be interesting if the new biometrics are faster than the old passport-swipe when it all settles down, and those with freedom of movement are in slower queues than those without!

I'd be interested to learn if there's been a significant reduction on lorries using the tunnel that are destined for Ireland; I believe there are new (?) ferry routes from France to the Republic to bypass having to drive through a non-EU country (checks etc) in which case it's good for UK pollution and roads - but a loss of income for Eurostar (or whomever runs vehicle trains)?

 

[Chester1]

Because ETIAS/EES is a Schengen project. Ireland forms part of the Common Travel Area - effectively a micro Schengen comprising the UK, Ireland, Isle of Man and the Channel Islands. People travelling from Ireland to the Schengen area are still subject to immigration checks to maintain the external security of the zone.

You just beat me to posting that!

Brexit is an easy excuse. The norm across the world is that countries, especially islands have border controls. Eurostar asking for an opt out for Brits from EES and ETIAS is essentially asking for a law enforcement benefit to be waived because they don't want to lease more space at St Pancras! Most British foreign travel starts and finishes at airports and they have the space for more boothes.

I am going to enjoy watching people's wild expectations of what the EU will agree to be burst under a Labour government. We are either going to stay a third country or rejoin with no opt outs. The EU would require explicit public support for UK giving up the pound and border controls with Europe. Both are central to the European project.

Yes, that's correct, but those immigrations checks are merely a glance/swipe of their passport. Be interesting if the new biometrics are faster than the old passport-swipe when it all settles down, and those with freedom of movement are in slower queues than those without!

There are about 60 nationalities that are going to be subject to EES and EITAS and it will make them much faster to process after first use. Many are major users of Eurostar e.g. Americans. Eurostar is playing politics because the bedding in period will be expensive for them.

 

[mrmartin]

Yes, and also even if we stayed in the EU there was always signs that more checks could be added to trains - as you saw on trains between Sweden and Denmark with the refugee crisis.

It was completely dumb to have StP be so constrained on space. It allows absolutely no flexibility in case of disruption (with passengers backing up to Euston Road), doesn't allow major expansion nor does it have any slack for any border/security issues. It would have been semi-understandable had Waterloo been like this; but given the amount of time they had to plan a brand new terminal, it is bordering on criminal.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

I think there's more chance of me flying to the moon next week than Waterloo P20-24 hosting Eurostars again!

Ugh, how I would love for that to happen once more. So many years as a child would I eagerly keep an eye out on the rail bridge over Clapham High Street or on the hill at Brockwell Park for one of those wonderful trains.

I doubt putting shoes back on the trains would be that expensive. Had they not binned them all so quickly it wouldn't be totally crazy to imagine 373s going back to Waterloo, if they refitted the customs facilities. Again, that's not exactly on the scale of building HS2. The flying junction at Fawkham is there after all.

Yes, and also even if we stayed in the EU there was always signs that more checks could be added to trains - as you saw on trains between Sweden and Denmark with the refugee crisis.

It was completely dumb to have StP be so constrained on space. It allows absolutely no flexibility in case of disruption (with passengers backing up to Euston Road), doesn't allow major expansion nor does it have any slack for any border/security issues. It would have been semi-understandable had Waterloo been like this; but given the amount of time they had to plan a brand new terminal, it is bordering on criminal.

I suppose that was because Waterloo was going to be kept open. Perhaps if Eurostar had the benefit of foresight in 2004 they wouldn't of announced its closure that year.

 

[Howardh]

If Old Oak Common ends up being the terminus for HS2, then by that logic redevelop Stratford International and make that the terminus for HS1 (tongue-in-cheek but I bet it's on someone's memo pad...)

 

[Austriantrain]

The funny thing is the EU will nevertheless live quite happily with UK in Northern Ireland going over the border to the EU in Ireland without the slightest border check at all.

There is a reason why Ireland is not in Schengen.

 

[Re 4/4]

And Switzerland /France Germany where one can simply take a tram across the border in Basel and Geneva without anyone checking anything.

Switzerland is in Schengen, even though it's not in the EU.

 

[johncrossley]

There could be an expansion of air travel to accommodate Eurostar passengers, especially between London and Brussels which has a very limited service at the moment.

 

[AlbertBeale]

No - it doesn't apply to EU citizens, and I assume EEA/Swiss (who have full freedom of movement rights).

The EES exists because it is actually very difficult AFIAK for the EU to know who is actually overstaying the 90 in 180 limit. As far as I'm aware, there is no way for a border officer in eg Spain to check other EU databases of who has arrived and left. I suspect it is trivial to get round the 90 day limit by flying in and out of different countries - the only check is stamps but they tend to do these very quickly at least for UK citizens and I'm not convinced they would notice overstays, at least all the time (they are often barely readable too). I could be wrong on this though.

I did have it confirmed to me at Oslo airport that they cannot check my passport for arrivals in other EU nations (I'm not sure if this is a Norway peculiarity though). I have permanent residency in an EU country, but during Brexit I didn't have my residents permit issued, which caused loads of problems like this.

Norway isn't in the EU...

 

[nickswift99]

When I came back from Brussels in 2012, calling at Lille, there were exit checks at St. Pancras which no-one was expecting. After some enquiries, I was told that this was to catch anyone with a Brussels - Lille ticket who had stayed on to London. Is this still happening?

At the moment, there are no London-bound services from Brussels that are set down at Lille, so this isn't an issue.

 

[Howardh]

At the moment, there are no London-bound services from Brussels that are set down at Lille, so this isn't an issue.

Last night I was looking at fares to Lille from London (ret) and they were available in April, whether or not pax can alight there from Brussels I've no idea. Just know that Lille-bound from London you simply walk off the train and away, homeward-bound you go through two sets of controls at Lille. Would anyone be allowed to have a ticket from Brussels to Lille, if they did they would surely have to go through British passport control at Brussels to get on to the train?

*Adds that the prices for over 60's (and times) were very good, I'm tempted!

 

[johncrossley]

Would anyone be allowed to have a ticket from Brussels to Lille, if they did they would surely have to go through British passport control at Brussels to get on to the train?

For Brussels to Lille travel on Eurostar, there is a separate terminal which doesn't require passport control, and you board in a different part of the train.