Eurostar pushing truth?

[mrmartin]

Just at st pancras now and I notice there is only a 1231 and 1431 Paris departure (gap of 2 hours).

There is then a 1504 Brussels, 1531 paris and 1631 Paris.

If there was actually a limitation at St Pancras on post brexit terminal capacity then it would be fairly consistent throughout the day (perhaps not first thing/late evening though).

I cannot see how terminal capacity can allow 3 trains in a 60 min period but only 2 in the proceeding 2 hours.

Are Eurostar bending the truth somewhat with how much this is an issue? They could surely run at least one more train at lunchtime.

Or are they intentionally reducing service to push fares higher and reduce costs with their heavy debt burden?

 

[hexagon789]

Just at st pancras now and I notice there is only a 1231 and 1431 Paris departure (gap of 2 hours).

There is then a 1504 Brussels, 1531 paris and 1631 Paris.

If there was actually a limitation at St Pancras on post brexit terminal capacity then it would be fairly consistent throughout the day (perhaps not first thing/late evening though).

I cannot see how terminal capacity can allow 3 trains in a 60 min period but only 2 in the proceeding 2 hours.

Are Eurostar bending the truth somewhat with how much this is an issue? They could surely run at least one more train at lunchtime.

Or are they intentionally reducing service to push fares higher and reduce costs with their heavy debt burden?

There is a 1301 to Brussels in-between the 1231 and 1431 Paris departures.

I suspect paths on the LGV Nord will at least partly dictate what Eurostar can run.

 

[zwk500]

Eurostar has a peak just like everybody else. The capacity crunch is mainly on their morning services. Once their into the leisure services they sell the full train.

 

[ainsworth74]

Plus perhaps it's just me but a gap between 1231 and 1431 covers rather neatly the lunch period that the people working the border will presumably need to take (or a shift change or similar).

 

[Tetchytyke]

Are Eurostar bending the truth somewhat with how much this is an issue? They could surely run at least one more train at lunchtime.

Or are they intentionally reducing service to push fares higher and reduce costs with their heavy debt burden?

Staffing isn't quite that straightforward, as you need most staff in their peaks. Staff working the peak then go off shift or need a break later. As @ainsworth74 says, that gap neatly fits in with lunch, also neatly fits in with an early/late shift pattern.

 

[hexagon789]

Plus perhaps it's just me but a gap between 1231 and 1431 covers rather neatly the lunch period that the people working the border will presumably need to take (or a shift change or similar).

Might also coincide with the French 'white period' on the LGVs.

 

[Mike99]

Also adding to the above, those afternoon departures possibly arrive, ready to then depart Paris and Brussels for the end of the working day at 'tea time' and early evening. The reverse of the morning peak from each end for business travel, leisure travel can fit around most departures. Maybe Eurostar know there business and the middle of the day doesn't require lots of services (fends off complaints about carrying fresh air). I doubt there is anything sinister about it.

 

[robvulpes]

There is also a strike in France - from 'Travel Updates' on Eurostar website:-

There will be a general strike in France on 31 January, involving demonstrations and widespread disruption in multiple sectors. The strike will have an impact on the availability of some of our crew.

This means we’ll be running a revised timetable on 31 January.

Check the list of cancelled trains

In addition, the following train will leave earlier:

Train 9063 will now leave Paris at 20:43 (original departure time: 21:10) and arrive in London at 22:00 (original arrival time: 22:30)

If your train is not listed as cancelled or leaving at a different time, it’s scheduled to run as normal. [etc]

 

[mrmartin]

I'm not refering to staffing; I'm refering to the physical infrastructure constraints at STP (not allowing passengers to flow through). If the "infrastructure" constraints are actually just they can't get a handful more border staff from UK/FR because they need to take a lunch break; I genuinely don't know what to say.

But fair enough on strikes - that explains it better!

 

[zwk500]

I'm not refering to staffing; I'm refering to the physical infrastructure constraints at STP (not allowing passengers to flow through). If the "infrastructure" constraints are actually just they can't get a handful more border staff from UK/FR because they need to take a lunch break; I genuinely don't know what to say.

But fair enough on strikes - that explains it better!

There is an infrastructure limit on the passenger capacity at St Pancras during peak times, when departures are far more bunched together (there's 4 departures between 0758 and 0931).

 

[hexagon789]

There is an infrastructure limit on the passenger capacity at St Pancras during peak times, when departures are far more bunched together (I think there's 4 departures between 0700 and 0930).

90 mins isn't even that large a gap really; does demand really warrant a 1331 departure for Paris for instance?

 

[zwk500]

90 mins isn't even that large a gap really; does demand really warrant a 1331 departure for Paris for instance?

Well a 1331 would get you to Paris at 17h00 French time, which is a kind of awkward time as it's late for a cafe bite but early for dinner, especially if you're making onward connections or need to find a hotel.

 

[hexagon789]

Well a 1331 would get you to Paris at 17h00 French time, which is a kind of awkward time as it's late for a cafe bite but early for dinner, especially if you're making onward connections or need to find a hotel.

Is that how the SNCF writes its timetables? Based on l'heures du repas?

 

[zwk500]

Is that how the SNCF writes its timetables? Based on l'heures du repas?

I wouldn't be surprised! But it does affect the market - people generally would want to arrive either a bit earlier to still have part of the day to go or a bit later and just go straight to the hotel.

 

[SHD]

Well a 1331 would get you to Paris at 17h00 French time, which is a kind of awkward time as it's late for a cafe bite but early for dinner, especially if you're making onward connections or need to find a hotel.

By that stomach logic, a 12-ish departure to Amsterdam will land travelers just in time for a Dutch “dinner”!

 

[zwk500]

By that stomach logic, a 12-ish departure to Amsterdam will land travelers just in time for a Dutch “dinner”!

My sense is that the Dutch are a lot less 'foody' than the french. The Dutch prefer their beer and snacks.

 

[SHD]

Oh it’s not your sense, it’s an established reality!

 

[dutchflyer]

Perhaps as a bit of reflection: I found, following various rail-forums, only you Bits to be a bit obsessed with train times for dinner/lunch etc-never see that as such in other forums. Nor an obsession for early dep-in Germany say 6.30 is considered quite normal. OTOH-every nat9oj seems to have such obsessions-the Germans mostly with the ability ti still pay with good old cash and have tickets not forced on the fone.

 

[Speed43125]

Perhaps as a bit of reflection: I found, following various rail-forums, only you Bits to be a bit obsessed with train times for dinner/lunch etc-never see that as such in other forums. Nor an obsession for early dep-in Germany say 6.30 is considered quite normal. OTOH-every nat9oj seems to have such obsessions-the Germans mostly with the ability ti still pay with good old cash and have tickets not forced on the fone.

Don't think we have a shortage of posters defending paper tickets here either!

 

[zwk500]

Don't think we have a shortage of posters defending paper tickets here either!

But the UK doesn't hang onto cash in the same way Germany does. We're quite happy to pay for our tickets with contactless.

 

[paul1609]

Just at st pancras now and I notice there is only a 1231 and 1431 Paris departure (gap of 2 hours).

There is then a 1504 Brussels, 1531 paris and 1631 Paris.

If there was actually a limitation at St Pancras on post brexit terminal capacity then it would be fairly consistent throughout the day (perhaps not first thing/late evening though).

I cannot see how terminal capacity can allow 3 trains in a 60 min period but only 2 in the proceeding 2 hours.

Are Eurostar bending the truth somewhat with how much this is an issue? They could surely run at least one more train at lunchtime.

Or are they intentionally reducing service to push fares higher and reduce costs with their heavy debt burden?

Yes, the only capacity restraints in the UK for Eurostar are about 2 hours in the morning peak

 

[Trainbike46]

Eurostar needs to plan their trains around a range of restrictions, including:
-St pancras capacity
-Tunnel capacity (and time slots)
-HS1 capacity
-LGV nord closure times, capacity
-Engineering works
-Border staff availability
-train availability
-etc.

Clearly there will always be times when some of these aren't limiting. From the perspective of St Pancras capacity, Eurostar could easily run a 1 am departure to Paris, but it won't get beyond the tunnel as LGV nord will be closed.

The capping of passenger numbers per train is an effect of St Pancras capacity, the continued closure of Ashford and Ebbsfleet is at least in part because of border staff availability.

The lunchtime break is likely at least in part because of staffing reasons.

Also, the services on a day with strikes in France are unlikely to be representative of the overall pattern. It appears eurostar has stopped publishing pdf timetables, which is rather unfortunate, as those are a good way of finding out the base service

But in short, the fact a short break with fewer services exists, or that there are times when st pancras capacity isn't the limiting factor, doesn't mean that st pancras capacity is reducing overall eurostar capacity

 

[mrmartin]

How much of a reduction of services has there been pre and post covid?

Basically what I'm getting at is Eurostar are blaming UK infra constraints in the press for reduced services, but what people are saying here is this is only true for 2 hours a day. Has there been a service decrease outside of that?

 

[zwk500]

How much of a reduction of services has there been pre and post covid?

Basically what I'm getting at is Eurostar are blaming UK infra constraints in the press for reduced services, but what people are saying here is this is only true for 2 hours a day. Has there been a service decrease outside of that?

It's worth remembering that the original press release saying they were restricting sales did say they were only restricting sales on those peak hour services. Off-peak services remain fully available, and in my experience the Paris trains were sold out or near to it and the Brussels trains have been loading at ~80-90%.

 

[Trainbike46]

How much of a reduction of services has there been pre and post covid?

Basically what I'm getting at is Eurostar are blaming UK infra constraints in the press for reduced services, but what people are saying here is this is only true for 2 hours a day. Has there been a service decrease outside of that?

That is hard to answer, because of the new introduction of Amsterdam services (which only started towards London during covid) and the removal of disneyland/south of france/ski services.

However it looks like they are currently running this many return trains on weekdays (from https://eurostar4agents.com/home-page-boxes/timetable )
11 to Paris
7 to Brussels
4 to Amsterdam

and in 2019 it was
16 to Paris
9 to Brussels
3 to Amsterdam (these were one-way services to Amsterdam, there was no return service)

It's worth remembering here that these are approximate numbers

edit I miscounted the 2019 services, have now corrected

Part of the reason the number of Paris services in particular is reduced is undoubtedly that in 2019, in the peak periods eurostar ran some Paris services half an hour apart, which clearly isn't possible at present

 

[mrmartin]

Ok. I assume there is scope to increase the off peak trains even with current infra though?

 

[Trainbike46]

Ok. I assume there is scope to increase the off peak trains even with current infra though?

Whether that is possible will depend on a range of factors, and I don't think anyone on this thread has access to all the information required.

I would like to note that it appears as though, in about a week they will go to 8 daily Brussels services, 13 daily Paris services and a fifth Amsterdam service is coming at the end of this year/beginning of next year

 

[zwk500]

Ok. I assume there is scope to increase the off peak trains even with current infra though?

The current quoted terminal throughput is 1,500 passengers/hr, compared with 2,200 pre 2019. https://www.reuters.com/business/au...ity-down-30-after-brexit-says-ceo-2022-09-28/

An e320/cl.374 takes 900 people, and e300/cl.373 takes about 760. So hourly departures from London are fine, but 2 departures in an hour push the terminal to the limit - 2x e300s is max capacity, 1xe300/1xe320 would be about 110% capacity and 2xe320s would be about 125% capacity. So you would need to withdraw 5% from each train of the e300/e320 mix or 15% of each e320 if you were running that. Which is what happens in the peaks, now.

 

[Trainbike46]

The current quoted terminal throughput is 1,500 passengers/hr, compared with 2,200 pre 2019. https://www.reuters.com/business/au...ity-down-30-after-brexit-says-ceo-2022-09-28/

An e320/cl.374 takes 900 people, and e300/cl.373 takes about 760. So hourly departures from London are fine, but 2 departures in an hour push the terminal to the limit - 2x e300s is max capacity, 1xe300/1xe320 would be about 110% capacity and 2xe320s would be about 125% capacity. So you would need to withdraw 5% from each train of the e300/e320 mix or 15% of each e320 if you were running that. Which is what happens in the peaks, now.

And there is no scope for more than 2 departures in an hour, at least not without very severely limiting seats sold on each train

That is hard to answer, because of the new introduction of Amsterdam services (which only started towards London during covid) and the removal of disneyland/south of france/ski services.

However it looks like they are currently running this many return trains on weekdays (from https://eurostar4agents.com/home-page-boxes/timetable )
11 to Paris
7 to Brussels
4 to Amsterdam

and in 2019 it was
16 to Paris
9 to Brussels
3 to Amsterdam (these were one-way services to Amsterdam, there was no return service)

It's worth remembering here that these are approximate numbers

edit I miscounted the 2019 services, have now corrected

Part of the reason the number of Paris services in particular is reduced is undoubtedly that in 2019, in the peak periods eurostar ran some Paris services half an hour apart, which clearly isn't possible at present

Making overviews like this would be so much easier if eurostar still published pdf timetables, but alas, for some reason not anymore

 

[zwk500]

And there is no scope for more than 2 departures in an hour, at least not without very severely limiting seats sold on each train

Well I took that as read if there wasn't scope for 2 full departures in an hour there wouldn't be scope for more! Also, edit noted!

It does raise the question of whether you could get the business at Ebbsfleet or Ashford to fill the trains in the peak. 1tp2h to each destination is probably fine for the off-peak, trains are busy but you can usually still book quite late before departure. It would only be 1 station max either way, but you'd need to take about 500 passengers across that period to take the pressure off St Pancras. It's borderline but not impossible. The big question is whether you can staff the intermediate station (almost certainly Ebbsfleet) efficiently enough to avoid taking a loss on the operation.
The fact Eurostar aren't looking at it suggests they don't think they can.