Eurostar St Pancras - is bedlam normal?

[Chester1]

The usage vs St Pancras would be negligible and the overhead in staffing it would be enormous.

Juxtaposed controls are an anachronism for rail, they were intended for conducting dog searches of HGVs boarding ferries.

It is the EU adding friction at the border removing the ability to travel at short notice.

UK didn't bother with passport stamping and ROI won't be involved in the new arrangements despite being outside Schengen.

It is unclear what problem the new arrangements are designed to fix. API introduced 15+ years ago was designed precisely to stop anyone on an 'exclude' list even getting into the air.

Removing the ability to travel at short notice will not matter to many passengers in reality. Once the EES and ETIAS have bedded in it isn’t likely that many people will be turning up at St Pancras at short notice without being enrolled on EES and having ETIAS. Very few who have not entered Schengen for three or more years are likely to suddenly need to take the next Eurostar!

EES is designed to fix the need of border officers of Schengen countries to manually count days using passport stamps. ETIAS is designed to curb travel of risk individuals. At some point it should enable visa requirements to be waived for some nationalities and individuals. Having a basic background check (UK ETA) has enabled the UK to drop full visas for Jordanians. Canada allows citizens of growing list of countries to just use electronic travel authorisation if they have had a Canadian or American visa in last 10 years.

The talk of capacity restraints at St Pancras is simply because of money, nothing more. There's definitely space to add at least another train worth of passengers with only minor remodelling required.

Fixed that for you. Eurostar has form for trying to use its popularity with Europhiles to try to get UK taxpayers to subidise their business e.g. during the pandemic they expected better terms for financial support than offered to airlines. The appeared to go through a stage of being unwilling to pay for any extra space at St Pancras but have finally leased more. If they want to expand they will need to lease even more.

 

[signed]

The whole concourse outside of the E* security at Paris is full of passengers waiting right now, seems to be moving really slow.

 

[island]

The whole concourse outside of security at Paris is full of passengers waiting right now

Happens regularly.

The post-security area can only fit so many people. That number is more or less fixed, though they did manage some tinkering around the edges with the Carte Blanche lounge.

Rumours or official messaging goes round that “security is very busy” and passengers start coming earlier because they feel they’ll miss their train.

French officials process people at one speed.

People start queueing earlier and are held in a static queue or waiting zone because check-in for their train isn’t open yet, or are let through and now the post-security area becomes crowded.

People share photos and stories online of “huge crowds” and the message gets out that you “need” to be even earlier still.

Rinse and repeat.

Eurostar tickets have now gone back to recommending arriving 45-60 minutes before the train, although the website says 90.

 

[rvdborgt]

Eurostar tickets have now gone back to recommending arriving 45-60 minutes before the train, although the website says 90.

Mine already mentioned that in May 2023. That was from Brussels, but indeed the website still says 60-75 minutes.

 

[signed]

It's a shame that it is not available for the return journey.

I suspect it will come soon in Paris.

There is a machine with a camera and a passport reader currently out of service in the Business Premier line

We got informed that there is currently not enough French border guards which make the line go extremely slow.

Got in in 40min, with French PARAFE gates refusing to read half the passports

 

[island]

I suspect it will come soon in Paris.

I don’t. French exit controls are already automated via Parafe.

 

[Peterthegreat]

The whole concourse outside of the E* security at Paris is full of passengers waiting right now, seems to be moving really slow.

And yet all Eurostar trains are on time this morning.

 

[James H]

I find the experience as a passenger both departing and arriving at St Pancras really puts a dampener on a Eurostar trip. Having to sit on the floor in the departures area is routine. And snaking through customs on the way out is tedious.

 

[RT4038]

I find the experience as a passenger both departing and arriving at St Pancras really puts a dampener on a Eurostar trip. Having to sit on the floor in the departures area is routine. And snaking through customs on the way out is tedious.

It is much the same as any ordinary journey departing or arriving the UK, whether by rail, ferry or air, isn't it?

 

[island]

It is much the same as any ordinary journey departing or arriving the UK, whether by rail, ferry or air, isn't it?

No. Very few such journeys routinely have insufficient seating in the departures waiting area for the number of passengers present.

 

[James H]

It is much the same as any ordinary journey departing or arriving the UK, whether by rail, ferry or air, isn't it?

The Eurostar website describes their Standard class product like this: "Welcome to getaways without the hassle. Go from the centre of one city to the heart of another, with no busy airports, tricky transports or bumpy landings."

The experience at St Pancras lets the whole Eurostar operation down. St P is by some margin a worse experience than the stations at the other end of the routes served by Eurostar from London. It could and should be better.

 

[RT4038]

The experience at St Pancras lets the whole Eurostar operation down. St P is by some margin a worse experience than the stations at the other end of the routes served by Eurostar from London. It could and should be better.

Not sure about that - my experience of the Gare du Nord, and of Bruxelles, on busy days is not really any better.

 

[island]

Not sure about that - my experience of the Gare du Nord, and of Bruxelles, on busy days is not really any better.

Gare du Nord is grotty, unpleasant, and replete with scammers, touts, and mendicants. After security it’s moderately better and you usually can get a seat.

Haven’t been to Brussel-Zuid in a while but I’ve never had issues with it.

 

[RT4038]

Gare du Nord is grotty, unpleasant, and replete with scammers, touts, and mendicants. After security it’s moderately better and you usually can get a seat.

Haven’t been to Brussel-Zuid in a while but I’ve never had issues with it.

I don't think any of the terminals are anything to shout about, but I guess none of them are new buildings and there are space constraints (plus the disruption factor) of any significant expansion. My last departure from GdN, on a Sunday afternoon with service disruption, was every bit as miserable as St. Pancras - with passengers corralled (standing) in the underneath metro station for an hour before they got anywhere near check in/security/immigration.

 

[BahrainLad]

No. Very few such journeys routinely have insufficient seating in the departures waiting area for the number of passengers present.

Erm, have you been to T5!?

Most post-2000 UK transport terminals have no public seating in order to persuade people hanging around to avail themselves of a seat inside a retail concession. St Pancras especially.

 

[jayah]

Removing the ability to travel at short notice will not matter to many passengers in reality. Once the EES and ETIAS have bedded in it isn’t likely that many people will be turning up at St Pancras at short notice without being enrolled on EES and having ETIAS. Very few who have not entered Schengen for three or more years are likely to suddenly need to take the next Eurostar!

EES is designed to fix the need of border officers of Schengen countries to manually count days using passport stamps. ETIAS is designed to curb travel of risk individuals. At some point it should enable visa requirements to be waived for some nationalities and individuals. Having a basic background check (UK ETA) has enabled the UK to drop full visas for Jordanians. Canada allows citizens of growing list of countries to just use electronic travel authorisation if they have had a Canadian or American visa in last 10 years.

Under EES and ETIAS sea and air carriers need to check the authority to travel 48hrs in advance. That is a significant issue for them and for people whose use air and sea.

Coaches operators get 3 years grace and for now rail is exempt, perhaps because the border is in London.

There is no need for anyone to count passport stamps and most of them don't anyway. The passports are already digitised scanned at the border. EU passports have been read in UK gates for years. Many of these pointless passport stamps are illegible. API is already designed to keep risk individuals out of the sky.

Data sharing is a different concept. It was always one of the main grievances with the Single Market that a convicted murderer could walk out of prison in Europe after serving 15 years, and jump on a flight to London the next day. The UK has always taken a pragmatic approach to borders, don't expect the EU to do the same in the foreseeable.

 

[Chester1]

Under EES and ETIAS sea and air carriers need to check the authority to travel 48hrs in advance. That is a significant issue for them and for people whose use air and sea.

Coaches operators get 3 years grace and for now rail is exempt, perhaps because the border is in London.

There is no need for anyone to count passport stamps and most of them don't anyway. The passports are already digitised scanned at the border. EU passports have been read in UK gates for years. Many of these pointless passport stamps are illegible. API is already designed to keep risk individuals out of the sky.

Data sharing is a different concept. It was always one of the main grievances with the Single Market that a convicted murderer could walk out of prison in Europe after serving 15 years, and jump on a flight to London the next day. The UK has always taken a pragmatic approach to borders, don't expect the EU to do the same in the foreseeable.

Has it been confirmed that no bookings within 48 hours will be accepted or is it just that airlines etc will need to run the check on existing passengers around 48 hours before? If its the former I would be surprised if that lasts for long. I don't think people going to America, Canada or Australia need to book more than 48 hours before arrival if they have pre authorisation or they don't but it is granted before they depart.

 

[island]

Erm, have you been to T5!?

Yes, numerous times. You on the other hand haven't if you are claiming that...

Most post-2000 UK transport terminals have no public seating in order to persuade people hanging around to avail themselves of a seat inside a retail concession.

T5 has thousands of seats that are free to use.

St Pancras especially.

Only a few dozen seats in the Eurostar waiting area at St Pancras are inside one of the two small catering concessions.

 

[Birkonian]

Yes, numerous times. You on the other hand haven't if you are claiming that...

T5 has thousands of seats that are free to use.

Only a few dozen seats in the Eurostar waiting area at St Pancras are inside one of the two small catering concessions.

The trick is if you arrive in the waiting room before the previous departure to yours is called there is no problem getting a seat when those travellers vacate their seats. By this I mean arrive before a Paris departure if travelling to Brussels and before a Brussels departure if travelling to Paris.

 

[Chester1]

Keir Starmer has said he will persuade the EU to "look again" at finger printing British travellers. At best he could probably get a delay to match UK adding EU and EEA citizens to UK ETA 6 months after all the other nationalities. St Pancras planning should assume no change!

 

[Krokodil]

Keir Starmer has said he will persuade the EU to "look again" at finger printing British travellers. At best he could probably get a delay to match UK adding EU and EEA citizens to UK ETA 6 months after all the other nationalities. St Pancras planning should assume no change!

Can someone please explain what we stand to gain from further delay? I can understand why they pushed back the implementation in order to avoid potential teething troubles during the Olympics, but isn't this system supposed to speed up border control by eliminating the need to add up stamps? So once the Olympics is over it would be better to get on and implement it (probably at a quieter time of year like November or January).

 

[island]

I don't see any realistic chance of the EU agreeing to that. Brexit means Brexit.

 

[Chester1]

Can someone please explain what we stand to gain from further delay? I can understand why they pushed back the implementation in order to avoid potential teething troubles during the Olympics, but isn't this system supposed to speed up border control by eliminating the need to add up stamps? So once the Olympics is over it would be better to get on and implement it (probably at a quieter time of year like November or January).

A delay for British citizens would mean a higher proportion of non EU, non British passengers will already be on system when we go on it. It wouldn't help that much at St Pancras but would make a big difference at large airports. We are phasing introduction of UK ETA so that EU/EEA nationals will be put on it about 6 months after everyone else.

I don't see any realistic chance of the EU agreeing to that. Brexit means Brexit.

They seem to have the view on Europe that they will get better deals from the EU because they are not the Tories. I think its a classic example of misunderstanding of the EU being a problem across our political spectrum. Leaving Brits until last might be possible but only if the EU is worried about the roll out. A permanent exemption simply isn't on the table.

 

[stuu]

They seem to have the view on Europe that they will get better deals from the EU because they are not the Tories. I think its a classic example of misunderstanding of the EU being a problem across our political spectrum. Leaving Brits until last might be possible but only if the EU is worried about the roll out. A permanent exemption simply isn't on the table.

I think their view is that they are far less dogmatic about the EU than the Tories and are prepared to make compromises, so there is much more chance of mutual agreements without having to worry about loons on the back benches throwing their toys out of their prams

 

[jon0844]

Happens regularly.

The post-security area can only fit so many people. That number is more or less fixed, though they did manage some tinkering around the edges with the Carte Blanche lounge.

Rumours or official messaging goes round that “security is very busy” and passengers start coming earlier because they feel they’ll miss their train.

French officials process people at one speed.

People start queueing earlier and are held in a static queue or waiting zone because check-in for their train isn’t open yet, or are let through and now the post-security area becomes crowded.

People share photos and stories online of “huge crowds” and the message gets out that you “need” to be even earlier still.

Rinse and repeat.

Eurostar tickets have now gone back to recommending arriving 45-60 minutes before the train, although the website says 90.

This.

There's absolutely ZERO reason to go in early, unless you're going business and using the lounge (and you can pretty much turn up whenever you want - many hours early if you so desire).

Not only will you be bored, uncomfortable, but you'll be taking up space needed by others travelling before you.

There are so many better places to go and chill, where you have zero risk of delays because you can walk over to departures. Get to St Pancras early by all means, but have a coffee/food nearby and aim to get there no earlier than one hour before.

(I've also said much the same many times before, including the media reporting on long queues and not mentioning the fact that Eurostar staff do go along the queues periodically to tell people to go away and come back later. If they pointed this out to viewers/readers, maybe that would stop people worrying and getting there even earlier).

The Eurostar website describes their Standard class product like this: "Welcome to getaways without the hassle. Go from the centre of one city to the heart of another, with no busy airports, tricky transports or bumpy landings."

The experience at St Pancras lets the whole Eurostar operation down. St P is by some margin a worse experience than the stations at the other end of the routes served by Eurostar from London. It could and should be better.

I guess it does depend on the time of your journey, but I usually clear security very quickly and find a seat. Having arrived not too early, I don't need to sit for too long. I know the platform the train is on (thanks OTT!) so will be near to the escalator. A quick toilet stop before they're calling for boarding 20-30 minutes before, and on. In fact, if I am carrying very little or no luggage, I'll actually board late and just take my seat after everyone else has sat down and sorted their bags.

Coming back, I've only experienced crazy queues in Paris when there were French border police strikes. That was a painful trip, but fortunately a rare blip.

As above, passenger behaviour plays a big part. If everyone is arriving too early then things get swamped. Plus not only do you get stuck in queues, but you've arrived far earlier than necessary and are left wondering if train travel is really a good alternative to flying. Yes, it is - but don't voluntarily make it worse!

 

[BahrainLad]

Yes, numerous times. You on the other hand haven't if you are claiming that...

T5 has thousands of seats that are free to use.

Only a few dozen seats in the Eurostar waiting area at St Pancras are inside one of the two small catering concessions.

Yes, I've been to T5 once or twice thank you, including on the very first day it opened (what an experience that was ) Notwithstanding I was posting somewhat tongue in cheek, in fact T5A is notorious for not having enough seating and too many retail concessions. This is exacerbated by T5 not having enough gates, so gate allocation is done very late compared to other large airports meaning passengers are reluctant to spread out over T5B or T5C. The "landside" area of St Pancras also has very little public seating. HS2 terminals will be the same. The link between dwell time, public seating and passenger spending is so strong it forms a core part of the revenue model of a transport hub. Sorry for the thread drift!

 

[Chester1]

I think their view is that they are far less dogmatic about the EU than the Tories and are prepared to make compromises, so there is much more chance of mutual agreements without having to worry about loons on the back benches throwing their toys out of their prams

That is true of some stuff. A vetinary deal to ease trade of food is certainly on the table. There is no long term compromise to be made on EES. The EU wants finger prints and photographs of every non citizen within its territory and doesn’t care if EU citizens are fingerprinted when entering non EU/EEA countries. There is potentially a deal to be made on ETIAS if there is a wider deal on preferential visas and vistor maximum stay lengths but I am not convinced.

I don't think its a big deal, Eurostar and the airline industry are having to pay to deal with the short term problems and in the long term the changes will make both sides of the border smoother.

 

[signed]

If everyone is arriving too early then things get swamped

The thing is that Eurostar themselves are a massive enabler for that, why would they open check-in 2 hours before departure (they do that in Paris)?

If you don't want to deal with queues at GdN, have someone posted at the stairs/lifts on ground level and make non-BP passengers disperse on ground level before the hours mark.

 

[KGX]

The e320 also represented a rather significant 20% capacity gain per train. Not sure how speeding up security or border checks solves the issue that departure lounge is too small.

 

[island]

The e320 also represented a rather significant 20% capacity gain per train. Not sure how speeding up security or border checks solves the issue that departure lounge is too small.

That's not a new problem though. The Class 374s have been with us for north of 8 years.