Euston departure board to be moved

[Bletchleyite]

I've just read on Twitter, but can't now find it, that Euston's departure board is to be removed and replaced with two smaller Paddington style (but coloured, as per the new one at Victoria) displays on the concourse, at 90 degrees to the current one. This is supposed to mean crowds form in a different place so not blocking platform access.

As this failed at Waterloo and the old location was reinstated, what are peoples' thoughts? I'd implore them to trial this on a temporary basis before committing to it, as as a regular Euston user for over 20 years I think this really won't work. There are things that might improve flows at Euston - but just not that!

Any thoughts? To me, the problems are caused by the crowds being there, and the crowds are there staring at it because of the Euston scrum, which has a number of potential solutions.

(It's also meant to cost £1.5m - a good bit of railway inflation there - a 50" LCD TV costs a grand at the top end of the range, and there's 10 of them per side (40 in total) and a chunk of metal to hang them off plus some wiring and a control box, so I struggle to see how it should really cost more than about £100K at most)

Edit: Aha, there's a page on it on Network Rail's website: https://www.networkrailmediacentre....eparture-boards-for-euston-station-passengers :

High-definition departure boards for Euston station passengers​

Region & Route: North West & Central | North West & Central: West Coast Mainline South
High-definition passenger information screens are being installed at London Euston station over the coming weeks so real-time testing can take place.


The new £1.5m electronic departure and arrivals boards will be positioned in the middle of the station concourse and will quadruple the number of screens available for passengers.

Instead of one set of overhead LED screens above the entrances to platforms, two double-sided banks of full-colour displays are being built on posts.

Computer modelling has taken place to analyse how shifting passengers’ focus from the front to the centre of the concourse can improve people flow at the West Coast main line’s London terminus.

But over the coming months this will be tested live when the new screens are put into action for trials.

I'm unconvinced that is really a trial if they're going to fit the final product rather than hire in a temporary arrangement!

 

[zwk500]

I've just read on Twitter, but can't now find it, that Euston's departure board is to be removed and replaced with two smaller Paddington style (but coloured, as per the new one at Victoria) displays on the concourse, at 90 degrees to the current one. This is supposed to mean crowds form in a different place so not blocking platform access.

As this failed at Waterloo and the old location was reinstated, what are peoples' thoughts? I'd implore them to trial this on a temporary basis before committing to it, as as a regular Euston user for over 20 years I think this really won't work. There are things that might improve flows at Euston - but just not that!

Any thoughts?

I think it'll make things worse, as the station exits are at the corners. At the moment everybody clumping in the middle at least means the edges remain clear for those going to shops or exiting the station. Splitting that crowd will just make it harder to move around.
Personally if I was doing anything with the Departure boards, I'd take the Overgrounds out of the main display, and just have a single board listing their departures. The DC lines are the same pattern all the time, so it only needs Number and platform. This would allow more LNWR and Avantis to be shown in advance. I'd also put bollards/fences up to make it clear where the waiting area is, and to stop the crowd streaming as one towards the platform each time it's put up. Something like 1m fence with 2m gaps, not ridiculous but still pretty clear.
I'd also move/remove the arrivals board. People trying to pick people up can message each other and meet away from the platform entrances.

 

[stuu]

It is a bit daft that it is immediately in front of the suburban platforms, which is the group least likely to need to look at the board for. But it's never that bad in my experience as there is a decent amount of circulation space on the platform side of the board, which isn't the case at Waterloo

I would guess the troubles at Avanti have made things a lot worse though, so perhaps that is driving this?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think it'll make things worse, as the station exits are at the corners. At the moment everybody clumping in the middle at least means the edges remain clear for those going to shops or exiting the station. Splitting that crowd will just make it harder to move around.
Personally if I was doing anything with the Departure boards, I'd take the Overgrounds out of the main display, and just have a single board listing their departures. The DC lines are the same pattern all the time, so it only needs Number and platform. This would allow more LNWR and Avantis to be shown in advance. I'd also put bollards/fences up to make it clear where the waiting area is, and to stop the crowd streaming as one towards the platform each time it's put up. Something like 1m fence with 2m gaps, not ridiculous but still pretty clear.
I'd also move/remove the arrivals board. People trying to pick people up can message each other and meet away from the platform entrances.

I would agree that there should be something that creates a clear path from each of the entrances/exits to the platform tunnel, such as a hatched area with some barriers along it towards the exits to funnel people the right way. I don't think you could safely put barriers at the front, when the scrum surges you'd get people trapped and crushed.

But the fix to most crowd related problems at Euston is to get rid of the scrum. There are a few ways to do this. One is that Avanti should follow LNER and allow reservations to be obtained on walk up tickets on TVMs, at the booking office and on your phone, with a seat selector, right up to departure, then you can saunter down at leisure. Another is that they should look at whether we really need to suppress platform numbers quite as late - don't do it at all for LNR services (they never used to), and for Avanti, have the train empty, close the doors then call it so people can go and wait by a door. (Cleaning crews can get access via the crew only doors at the ends like they do at Manchester Piccadilly where platform numbers aren't suppressed).

 

[zwk500]

I would agree that there should be something that creates a clear path from each of the entrances/exits to the platform tunnel, such as a hatched area with some barriers along it towards the exits to funnel people the right way. I don't think you could safely put barriers at the front, when the scrum surges you'd get people trapped and crushed.

I think if it was just baffles rather than a continuous fence it'd be ok, but I guess an emergency evacuation plan might object. The new HS2 deck at mid-platform will also help spread out the scrum at Euston.

But the fix to most crowd related problems at Euston is to get rid of the scrum. There are a few ways to do this. One is that Avanti should follow LNER and allow reservations to be obtained on walk up tickets on TVMs, at the booking office and on your phone, with a seat selector, right up to departure, then you can saunter down at leisure.

100%, all services that have digital reservation indicators should allow reservation of a seat in real time (up to maybe 2 minutes before departure). With Cloud computing there's really no excuse for this.

Another is that they should look at whether we really need to suppress platform numbers quite as late - don't do it at all for LNR services (they never used to), and for Avanti, have the train empty, close the doors then call it so people can go and wait by a door. (Cleaning crews can get access via the crew only doors at the ends like they do at Manchester Piccadilly where platform numbers aren't suppressed).

I agree. There's no good reason to suppress LNWR platform numbers unless there's set swaps going on. Given Avanti have 20+ min turnrounds, there's no reason the platform can't be put up 5 minutes after arrival and as you say hold the doors until the cleaning crew are done.

 

[Starmill]

100%, all services that have digital reservation indicators should allow reservation of a seat in real time (up to maybe 2 minutes before departure). With Cloud computing there's really no excuse for this.

At the moment Avanti can't even reliably show reservations made in advance. And that's before their emergency timetable withdrew everyone's reservation and opened new ones, even if the train's departure time was the same.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Hopefully New St will also get the same treatment.
A serried row of monochrome dot-matrix displays is so old hat now.
Summary screens should also show the operator, something NR has studiously avoided since privatisation.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Hopefully New St will also get the same treatment.
A serried row of monochrome dot-matrix displays is so old hat now.
Summary screens should also show the operator, something NR has studiously avoided since privatisation.

I don't think there's anything wrong with the location of the displays at New St, and I'm sure in due course they'll be replaced by colour ones. The layout is otherwise the same.

 

[Flying Snail]

The problem at Euston is too many people on the concourse, there might be a certain amount of crowding in the centre but this suggests the sides are empty which they really aren't.

There is a blindingly obvious solution to the Euston crowds; have all trains available to board 15-20mns before departure, that way far fewer people will be compelled to loiter on the concourse.

I realise there are issues with this but the alternative to an actual solution is not a stupid, costly nonsense idea that will have little real effect bar wasting cash that could be far better spent on any number of other projects.

 

[Horizon22]

Any thoughts? To me, the problems are caused by the crowds being there, and the crowds are there staring at it because of the Euston scrum, which has a number of potential solutions.

(It's also meant to cost £1.5m - a good bit of railway inflation there - a 50" LCD TV costs a grand at the top end of the range, and there's 10 of them per side (40 in total) and a chunk of metal to hang them off plus some wiring and a control box, so I struggle to see how it should really cost more than about £100K at most)

Edit: Aha, there's a page on it on Network Rail's website: https://www.networkrailmediacentre....eparture-boards-for-euston-station-passengers :

Cost needs to take into labour too and syncing up the systems as it is a new type of software for controllers to use.

As for the scrum, the layout of the station is the core issue, although they seem surprisingly slow to boards train when compared to comparative termini. Fundamentally if trains aren't ready to board before departure time, then they won't be boarded (cleaning and prep etc.) You also get the issue at some terminals that even though they are boarded in good time, seat reservations aren't ready and cleaning isn't completed. It does seem the handover process at Euston for passenger boarding isn't the best.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

I don't think there's anything wrong with the location of the displays at New St, and I'm sure in due course they'll be replaced by colour ones. The layout is otherwise the same.

And having the 2nd row by the Bullring entrance means you don't even have to go to the middle of the station. Adding colours to the departure board for the lounges is also a useful addition there.

 

[Horizon22]

100%, all services that have digital reservation indicators should allow reservation of a seat in real time (up to maybe 2 minutes before departure). With Cloud computing there's really no excuse for this.

Still needs manual input on the train's software to say "This train is 1A00" and then upload the reservations. This is usually the guard / Train Manager / driver.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

The problem at Euston is too many people on the concourse, there might be a certain amount of crowding in the centre but this suggests the sides are empty which they really aren't.

There is a blindingly obvious solution to the Euston crowds; have all trains available to board 15-20mns before departure, that way far fewer people will be compelled to loiter on the concourse.

I realise there are issues with this but the alternative to an actual solution is not a stupid, costly nonsense idea that will have little real effect bar wasting cash that could be far better spent on any number of other projects.

The middle ground would be to use the ramps as boarding gates like how Avanti operate the higher numbered platforms for ticket checks. Not all services have a luxury of 15-20 minute turnarounds, hell we have an 8 minute one (I think) that includes splitting a 12 car off! Holding until 5mins prior is very useful on that indeed

 

[Bletchleyite]

Still needs manual input on the train's software to say "This train is 1A00" and then upload the reservations. This is usually the guard / Train Manager / driver.

You can call a train before the doors are opened. Let it arrive, tip it out, lock the doors and call it. Cleaners can get access via the staff only doors on the end coaches like they do at Manchester Piccadilly.

Just don't release the doors until the reservations are up.

The middle ground would be to use the ramps as boarding gates like how Avanti operate the higher numbered platforms for ticket checks. Not all services have a luxury of 15-20 minute turnarounds, hell we have an 8 minute one (I think) that includes splitting a 12 car off! Holding until 5mins prior is very useful on that indeed

Yes, another option could be to have queueing on the ramps, provided they are strong enough.

But a key thing is to reduce the need people feel to be on the train first. Making it easy to get a seat reservation for a walk-up ticket at any time before departure, like LNER do, is one good way to do this. At the moment you have maybe 500 people all legging it at once. If people don't need to be on first, they won't stand on the concourse glaring at the board poised to move at any second. They'll spend their time in other places around the station, perhaps getting a coffee, using the loo or whatever. For LNR services, just don't suppress them at all - they never used to and it worked fine. Increasing numbers of commuters either just know them or use Realtime Trains anyway.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Yes, another option could be to have queueing on the ramps, provided they are strong enough.

But a key thing is to reduce the need people feel to be on the train first. Making it easy to get a seat reservation for a walk-up ticket at any time before departure, like LNER do, is one good way to do this. At the moment you have maybe 500 people all legging it at once. If people don't need to be on first, they won't stand on the concourse glaring at the board poised to move at any second. They'll spend their time in other places around the station, perhaps getting a coffee, using the loo or whatever. For LNR services, just don't suppress them at all - they never used to and it worked fine. Increasing numbers of commuters either just know them or use Realtime Trains anyway.

There does seem to have been a marked increase in the number of passengers I see using RTT or Traksy.

The only reason I would prefer ramp queuing to open platforms is Birmingham New St is verging on being unsafe at peak times now that passenger number are back and especially evening peak. I would always prefer to have time and space for passengers to disembark prior to boarding as it seems far more acceptable now for passengers to force their way onto the train rather than letting people off first.

Anyway, digressing from the screen somewhat here. Let's see what it looks like when it's installed eh, never know, it could work.....

 

[Bletchleyite]

Anyway, digressing from the screen somewhat here. Let's see what it looks like when it's installed eh, never know, it could work.....

It could. If it does, I will retract my criticism

I am not convinced, though. The problems at Euston are caused by too many people being in that central concourse area, so any fix needs to involved reducing that number.

 

[thomalex]

Looking at that artists impression this is less to do with overcrowding and more to do with additional advertising space. Expect the huge gap left by the previous departure screens to be filled with advert screens.

 

[Horizon22]

You can call a train before the doors are opened. Let it arrive, tip it out, lock the doors and call it. Cleaners can get access via the staff only doors on the end coaches like they do at Manchester Piccadilly.

Just don't release the doors until the reservations are up.



Yes, another option could be to have queueing on the ramps, provided they are strong enough.

But a key thing is to reduce the need people feel to be on the train first. Making it easy to get a seat reservation for a walk-up ticket at any time before departure, like LNER do, is one good way to do this. At the moment you have maybe 500 people all legging it at once. If people don't need to be on first, they won't stand on the concourse glaring at the board poised to move at any second. They'll spend their time in other places around the station, perhaps getting a coffee, using the loo or whatever. For LNR services, just don't suppress them at all - they never used to and it worked fine. Increasing numbers of commuters either just know them or use Realtime Trains anyway.

Sure, but then you have just people hanging around on platforms. That's generally not best procedure these days, due to platform areas having reduced space compared to the concourse. Most London termini do the same - unless they are primarily metro services.

 

[zwk500]

The other interesting point on the artist's impression is that the arrows for 'go to train' are pointing out of the station for the lowest numbered platforms!

 

[thomalex]

Sure, but then you have just people hanging around on platforms. That's generally not best procedure these days, due to platform areas having reduced space compared to the concourse. Most London termini do the same - unless they are primarily metro services.

I would argue at Euston there's more space on the platforms than the concourse.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would argue at Euston there's more space on the platforms than the concourse.

Mostly there is, yes. London terminals have long been operated like that, but very few non-London stations are.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Taking the artists impression as gospel, would I be right in thinking that it only shows six departures in detail then a list of 'later departures'? I have been at Euston when there are more than that number of services boarding at the same time, especially so when there are delays. Thus the delayed services fill up the (current) display from the left. Surely it needs to be large enough to show the next 30 minutes of trains with reserve capacity to allow for delays - so say an hours worth of departures in detail?

 

[Snow1964]

The problem at Euston is too many people on the concourse, there might be a certain amount of crowding in the centre but this suggests the sides are empty which they really aren't.

There is a blindingly obvious solution to the Euston crowds; have all trains available to board 15-20mns before departure, that way far fewer people will be compelled to loiter on the concourse.

I realise there are issues with this but the alternative to an actual solution is not a stupid, costly nonsense idea that will have little real effect bar wasting cash that could be far better spent on any number of other projects.

The platforms at Euston are not narrow, so having people there awaiting doors to open is not a problem. The days of long strings of luggage carts fighting for platform space are long gone.

From the middle of the concourse, a walk to correct platform, then down the slope, and potentially another 200+ metres if seated near front of train will take most people 4-7 minutes. If you also want to close doors 30-60 seconds early, then displaying platform 15 minutes early will use up lot of that, so much better way to keep concourse clear.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Mostly there is, yes. London terminals have long been operated like that, but very few non-London stations are.

I can't imagine what Manchester Piccadilly would be like if everyone was held outside the gateline until just before departure. All the way down the approach ramp I suppose. Or if no-one chose to wait at platform level at Birmingham New Street.

 

[Horizon22]

The platforms at Euston are not narrow, so having people there awaiting doors to open is not a problem. The days of long strings of luggage carts fighting for platform space are long gone.

From the middle of the concourse, a walk to correct platform, then down the slope, and potentially another 200+ metres if seated near front of train will take most people 4-7 minutes. If you also want to close doors 30-60 seconds early, then displaying platform 15 minutes early will use up lot of that, so much better way to keep concourse clear.

And that was my point that the fundamental problem is the design of the station, as opposed to anything else. Somewhere like Paddington or Liverpool Street you are right in front of the platforms. Even Kings Cross isn't so bad.

Most London terminals operating intercity services have the same (or close to the same) boarding procedure as Euston but don't have the same layout constraints.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Most London terminals operating intercity services have the same (or close to the same) boarding procedure as Euston

And it's awful everywhere.

One station that has been ruined by it is Inverness. Before the gateline was installed, a civilised, one-abreast queue formed for each departure, snaking around the concourse. Now it is yet another scrum.

I'd love to see one of the disability or elderly campaigners challenge it on accessibility grounds. The only people who gain from it are fit young people.

 

[zwk500]

And that was my point that the fundamental problem is the design of the station, as opposed to anything else. Somewhere like Paddington or Liverpool Street you are right in front of the platforms. Even Kings Cross isn't so bad.

Most London terminals operating intercity services have the same (or close to the same) boarding procedure as Euston but don't have the same layout constraints.

Tbf King's Cross had an entire new concourse built about 10 years ago at rather large expense. It also works quite well because arriving passengers exit straight off the platforms to the square, and departing passengers come in from the side, so the two flows are conflicting less than they do at Euston. Hopefully the new HS2 concourse spanning all tracks at the country end of the classic platforms will help.

 

[Flying Snail]

And that was my point that the fundamental problem is the design of the station, as opposed to anything else. Somewhere like Paddington or Liverpool Street you are right in front of the platforms. Even Kings Cross isn't so bad.

Most London terminals operating intercity services have the same (or close to the same) boarding procedure as Euston but don't have the same layout constraints.

None of the other terminals have the same number of Advance heavy services as Euston, the sheer numbers that are going to be hanging around at the station early, lest they miss their booked train and face buying an anytime single, dwarfs that of all the other terminals.

 

[Bletchleyite]

None of the other terminals have the same number of Advance heavy services as Euston, the sheer numbers that are going to be hanging around at the station early, lest they miss their booked train and face buying an anytime single, dwarfs that of all the other terminals.

Kings Cross probably does - if anything more so, because for historical reasons ECML walk-ups are about 10% more expensive than WCML ones for a similar journey.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Looking at that artists impression this is less to do with overcrowding and more to do with additional advertising space. Expect the huge gap left by the previous departure screens to be filled with advert screens.

Yes - I imagine that's the driver of the moving of the departure screens.

The other interesting point on the artist's impression is that the arrows for 'go to train' are pointing out of the station for the lowest numbered platforms!

Yes; the systems with those arrows can't possibly make sense if, when looking at the screens, you aren't also facing the platforms. This whole scheme seems absurd.

I would argue at Euston there's more space on the platforms than the concourse.

Yes - unlike many London terminus stations. Hence the validity of the points made above about the concourse congestions being solvable by letting people onto the platforms earlier.

Taking the artists impression as gospel, would I be right in thinking that it only shows six departures in detail then a list of 'later departures'? I have been at Euston when there are more than that number of services boarding at the same time, especially so when there are delays. Thus the delayed services fill up the (current) display from the left. Surely it needs to be large enough to show the next 30 minutes of trains with reserve capacity to allow for delays - so say an hours worth of departures in detail?

If it's the case that a bank of the new screens will show fewer pending departures than the existing system, then the new plan is objectively less use than the existing set-up, irrespective of added pretty colours and so on.

It seems likely that the whole idea is driven by the desire to add (planet destroying) advertising space, and that either the planners of this haven't thought enough to realise that it'll make information provision worse, or they realise but don't care.