Euston - how could services be re-routed if it were to be rebuilt?

[The exile]

Liverpool-Stafford-Banbury-Chiltern line-Marylebone using 805s?

Or Nuneaton - Leicester- St Pancras like in 1991 if there’s still capacity.

 

[JonathanH]

Or Nuneaton - Leicester- St Pancras like in 1991 if there’s still capacity.

Nothing like the spare capacity that was available in 1991.

Seems a bit of a shame the patch of land which once was Chalk Farm Morrisons isn't available for a temporary station. The combined site of Primrose Hill Station, Chalk Farm Morrisons, the WCML running lines and Camden Carriage Sidings could have made for a considerable temporary station.

 

[The Planner]

You arent going to be terminating a significant amount of long distance trains at Watford or MK. 4 or 5 tops per hour. Over a sustained timeframe that isn't going to be enough.

 

[Bald Rick]

It seems my post in the other thread explaining how it was all done last time has been missed.

If it was needed to be done again, then expect somethig similar to the 1999-2000 plan.

The station rebuild in the mid 60s was done largely concurrent with electrification. Although in the main the track layout was not significantly altered. It was done by diverting most of the traffic away - Birmingham trains to Paddington, Manchester trains and some Scotland passengers to St Pancras, postal traffic to a temporary facility on the south / west side of the tracks near Kilburn High Road (there’s still a Royal Mail facility there now). Commuting numbers on what is now the LNR services were much less than today. Took a few years.

For the remodelling 1999-2000, the staton itself was largely untouched (except for making the ramp down to 16-18 much wider), but all the tracks, signalling and OLE (but not all the gantries) were replaced. There was a year and a half of prep works and some of the less disruptive stuff, mostly involving weekend / overnight works where some of the tracks were worked on, but the station remained open. Then from Easter to October 2000 there was a temporary timetable with reduced service levels and roughly one third of the station taken out of use at a time. From memory 15-18 were taken out for the first few weeks, then 12-18, then 8-14, and finally 1-7.

The service reductions took out a handful of peak Virgin services, about 30% of the Silverlink peak (partly offset with 12 coach trains where possible) and the DC (overgrounds) were diverted to the NLL for the duration. Sleepers were a bit tricky as there was only one platform for them throughout, so they had to follow each other in; if the first arrival was late the second had to be held in Wembley or Kensal Green Loop until the platfrom was free. Of course this was in the days when there were fewer services - the standard off peak pattern was 5/6 Virgins, 5 Silverlinks, and 3 DC services (Silverlink Metro). Essentially the timetable was 12 trains per hour max, keeping a path clear in the off peak and squeezing another path in during the peak. It also helped that back then the morning Silverlink peak was done by 0900, whereas the Virgin peak was 0900-1000.


It all worked pretty well, except for the contractor cutting through the air main to the points on day one. Also Hatfield happened about a week after the main blockade finished, so it was a while until passengers felt the benefit of the new layout as temproary timetables were in force.


I’ve found this thread fascinating. Clearly Euston needs rebuilding, and it does get crowded, however I have never found it to be unsafe. I use it about 4 times a week, generally at peak time.

One thing - plans for the rebuilding of Euston have been under development for some time - a lot of time and effort (and money) has gone into it. The HS2 change of strategy has of course affected the timing and design of the conventional station rebuild. Regardless, it is a massive job and will not be cheap.

 

[cle]

It probably is a mix. MKC needs the calls, but Watford could be useful, as could Queens Park to a degree.

Birmingham:
Chiltern can pick up the Birmingham services - either extend the Moor Sts or add extras which can go via Coventry. One can run on to Wolves and Glasgow per today.
OOC when HS2 opens, of course (there will be a good amount of time of HS2 ex OOC before Euston) - and the above is discontinued.

Manchester:
1tph Rio service from St Pancras via Dore.
1tph Watford-MKC-Manchester with Trent Valley calls, via Stoke.

Liverpool:
1tph Watford-MKC-Crewe-Liverpool with alt calls (Rugby, Stafford)

Glasgow:
Make the Marylebone-Wolves service hourly (no B'ham<>Edinburgh)
Up the Kings Cross service.

North Wales:
Up the service out of Crewe. 1-2 directs from Watford-MKC

LNWR
2tph Watford-MKC/Northampton-2 to New St (slow/semi stops)
2-4 tph Tring-Queens Park (8 car limit at QP) - if turnable. I know the Blackpool was planned to. What is the maximum here?

The latter Tring would be the London feeder, flighted after each Pendo terminated at Watford. Maybe QP could be extended to 12 cars and with another footbridge. It's a busy station and post-HS2 could see more calls as a railhead to a very empty Bakerloo with rare capacity to spare.

And if Handsacre is done for opening (and it should be) - the above could be mitigated a lot too.

 

[A S Leib]

For LNWR run to Watford, but also run RRBs from MK to Bedford, Leighton Buzzard to Luton, Tring and Berkhamstead to Chesham, Hemrl & Kings Langley to Watford Met.

Between Watford traffic and slower train times, I think RRBs from Hemel to St. Albans instead (or as well, if they could be provided) would be preferable. St. Albans traffic can be poor at times as well though, although hopefully other Thameslink MML services being too full wouldn't be an issue as there'd be the Sutton services and Leighton Buzzard alone probably wouldn't overload the Medway ones.

If the entirety of Nuneaton – Didcot were to be four-tracked and electrified, how many Avanti services could be terminated at Oxford, Didcot or Reading? Platform 1 at Oxford doesn't look like it's used for most of the day, unless it's used as a siding. Could a 3 or 4 tph service from Paddington to Birmingham and the northwest via Oxford work, or is there not enough space at Paddington? Does CrossCountry have the rolling stock for 2 9-carriage tph between Birmingham and Reading?

The Standard's reporting that Haigh's given HS2 to Euston the go-ahead, which would help.

 

[The Planner]

No extensive infrastructure works would be built to enable it. As for Chiltern suddenly running to Glasgow, no.

 

[Bletchleyite]

For those mentioning Queen's Park it looks to me like the mainline platforms here are being dug up at the moment, so probably no longer an option.

 

[Bald Rick]

Wehn we used Hemel for RRBs back in 2002/3, it was buses to Stanmore for the Jubilee. By far the quickest option, and the one with most capacity for passengers.

 

[The Planner]

Wehn we used Hemel for RRBs back in 2002/3, it was buses to Stanmore for the Jubilee. By far the quickest option, and the one with most capacity for passengers.

Apparently stuff has/is being built at Stanmore which makes that difficult now?

 

[London Trains]

Could you feasibly run some trains through to Waterloo via the WLL? Maybe even throw in a Vauxhall stop for the Victoria Line. Of course only 350/1s and 805s would be able to do this.

 

[Wolfie]

Wehn we used Hemel for RRBs back in 2002/3, it was buses to Stanmore for the Jubilee. By far the quickest option, and the one with most capacity for passengers.

Given the push for TfL to raise more cash is being met by building on outer station carparks that will only get worse.

 

[Bald Rick]

Could you feasibly run some trains through to Waterloo via the WLL? Maybe even throw in a Vauxhall stop for the Victoria Line. Of course only 350/1s and 805/807s would be able to do this.

The 807s would need a good run up…

 

[London Trains]

The 807s would need a good run up…

Apologies, I just meant the 805s.

 

[A S Leib]

If platform closures were limited to 2 at a time, could a normal-ish service (maybe 3 tph total to Birmingham, no Chester services, some Tring terminators dropped in favour of Milton Keynes ones or more stops on LNR Birmingham ones) be managed for enough time to get work done? I know that the answer's likely "depends on what said work is".

 

[Bletchleyite]

If platform closures were limited to 2 at a time, could a normal-ish service (maybe 3 tph total to Birmingham, no Chester services, some Tring terminators dropped in favour of Milton Keynes ones or more stops on LNR Birmingham ones) be managed for enough time to get work done? I know that the answer's likely "depends on what said work is".

Trouble is how are you going to take the parcels deck down 2 platforms at a time? That's in the way of any new over-station development, which I think we all agree is desirable even if it's just a boarding lounge.

 

[Bald Rick]

Trouble is how are you going to take the parcels deck down 2 platforms at a time? That's in the way of any new over-station development, which I think we all agree is desirable even if it's just a boarding lounge.

errr - some of it has already come down 2 at a time, notably the part above 17/18. More was due to come dwon above 15/16.

 

[Bletchleyite]

errr - some of it has already come down 2 at a time, notably the part above 17/18. More was due to come dwon above 15/16.

If we've established that that is indeed possible, then that could be an option. As I mentioned you could reduce LNR's platform occupation by removing peak extras (aside from those cases where a Bletchley starter/terminator is just an extended Tring semifast operating in service because it might as well, because that has no effect on Euston) and running peak trains 12-car instead. You could reduce Avanti by removing the Birmingham semifast and putting the stops back in the Glasgow/Edinburgh, making the Chester/North Wales a connection, not starting the second Liverpool, dropping a Manchester etc. You could even drop the Tring semifasts entirely and rediagram, but I think that might lead to excessive overcrowding.

 

[The Planner]

If we've established that that is indeed possible, then that could be an option. As I mentioned you could reduce LNR's platform occupation by removing peak extras (aside from those cases where a Bletchley starter/terminator is just an extended Tring semifast operating in service because it might as well, because that has no effect on Euston) and running peak trains 12-car instead. You could reduce Avanti by removing the Birmingham semifast and putting the stops back in the Glasgow/Edinburgh, making the Chester/North Wales a connection, not starting the second Liverpool, dropping a Manchester etc. You could even drop the Tring semifasts entirely and rediagram, but I think that might lead to excessive overcrowding.

If you are looking at a plan like a two track timetable (6 Avanti 4 LNWR) you could take 4 platforms out without too much hassle. Trains would be very busy, but you could do it.

 

[A S Leib]

Trains would be very busy, but you could do it.

Maybe make Avanti services mandatory reservation up until / from the last station after / before Euston if necessary, and provide some RRBs on top of that? So for e.g. Manchester – London there'd be the options of having a seat reservation, avoiding Avanti entirely (Northern / TfW and LNR or via Sheffield), or getting off at Milton Keynes and going to London via Luton?

 

[The Planner]

Maybe make Avanti services mandatory reservation up until / from the last station after / before Euston if necessary, and provide some RRBs on top of that? So for e.g. Manchester – London there'd be the options of having a seat reservation, avoiding Avanti entirely (Northern / TfW and LNR or via Sheffield), or getting off at Milton Keynes and going to London via Luton?

No one would use the buses.

 

[A S Leib]

No one would use the buses.

That's fair; Avanti passengers from Coventry / Nuneaton and north would get seat reservations, those from Rugby and south would likely use LNR services, and passengers from the places the RRBs would be running from wouldn't use them either as there'd still be LNR.

 

[HSTEd]

Would anyone use a resurrected "Rio" Service via Dore?

It's going to take going on three hours, plus would St Pancras cope with any additional passengers?
I think its going to have to be trying to get passengers onto the smallest possible number of trains on the WCML.

 

[A S Leib]

I think its going to have to be trying to get passengers onto the smallest possible number of trains on the WCML.

If you're running fewer trains anyway, could you give more time at stations and run longer trains with some carriages without doors opening at any stations, selective door opening dependent? Or would that have too many safety issues / be otherwise impractical?

 

[vuzzeho]

Could EWR help with this?

 

[SCDR_WMR]

If you're running fewer trains anyway, could you give more time at stations and run longer trains with some carriages without doors opening at any stations, selective door opening dependent? Or would that have too many safety issues / be otherwise impractical?

LNWR could run all trains as 12 car 350/10 car 730 if needed. Lose a set at Northampton but other than that. UDS/ASDO is already in operation on anything longer than 4 cars on Trent Valley services

 

[Mgameing123]

Could Overground trains on Lioness line be sent via Kensington Olympia to Clapham junction (and are there enough dual voltage 710s)?

Can LNWR turn around at Wembley Central or would they need to turn around at Watford Junction?

Things would probably be similar to when the area was closed for upgrades in the Virgin era

Call it Watford DC. We don't accept these bad names.

North Wales gets no service if you do that. You probably wouldnt have enough 805s either.

TFW can figure out a replacement.

 

[The Planner]

Call it Watford DC. We don't accept these bad names.


TFW can figure out a replacement.

Why would they? Its not their problem.

 

[MPW]

What timeline are people taking into consideration here? Would not the most obvious thing to do be getting new HS2 platforms to operational stage before taking any other platforms out of service?

In the beginning classic services could surely use at least part of the HS2 platforms during reconstruction given full HS2 capacity won't be needed until HS2 reaches at least manchester.

That would be far enough in future that other, smaller infrastructure enhancements could be done elsewhere to alleviate pressure. I don't know what those enhancements could be, but it seems some posts are ruling out the possibility of anything other than timetable changes.

 

[HSTEd]

What timeline are people taking into consideration here? Would not the most obvious thing to do be getting new HS2 platforms to operational stage before taking any other platforms out of service?

The real question is how workable building a HS2 station separately from the rest of the reconstruction is.
We are now multiple failed attempts into developing such a design.
Personally I suggest temporary platforms on the HS2 site, but not a complete station. We need one Euston, not two crippled stations side by side