Evolyn to investigate cross-Channel rail services (clarified to not include Mobico)

[yorksrob]

Isn’t Fawkham Junction effectively OOU now?

I believe it is, although I was envisaging such services taking the main line from Ashford.

 

[JaJaWa]

If they can’t do St Pancras then Stratford International would be the only other logical choice

 

[yorksrob]

Central London would surely be better than a suburban shopping centre.

 

[zwk500]

They've filled up quickly !

Yes, funnily enough it's quite busy! The platforms were rebuilt to UK standards and the station access reconfigured so it'd be one hell of a job to reopen for international trains. There's also then the issue of needing UK-compliant trains with third rail.

If so, there's always the Eastern side of Victoria. Turn the WH Smith into the customs block.

Platform 2 is the longest at 359m, all others are c.240 only. Any international operator is going to need 400m trains to make the numbers add up. And that's before you get into the security conflicts with access to P1 while P2 is being used for European trains.

Isn’t Fawkham Junction effectively OOU now?

Not just effectively, I believe it's got sleepers chained across and all electrics isolated. However as long as the points and signalling remain operational on both sides it shouldn't be too much work to get it back, however it is an extra cost that the operator would be expected to help contribute to.

If they can’t do St Pancras then Stratford International would be the only other logical choice

See other threads (or even earlier in this one) for why Stratford is the worst of the 3 options of negotiating access to St Pancras, Ebbsfleet or Ashford.

 

[Royston Vasey]

Given the demise of the through Eurostar services to the North and beyond, running trains to a "Euro" Hub (Stratford? Ashford? Ebsfleet?) and then, after an interchange, on to Europe could be interesting.
My daughter lives in East London, but without that option, it would mean a hotel to get a suitable train, adding enormously to the cost.
This really needs to be sorted if we're to save the planet.

They could even have a partnership with SouthEastern High Speed. Board at St Pancras but onto a Javelin, HS1 to Stratford, Ashford or Ebbsfleet, do the border ceremonies there. Giving the option to get to the intermediate station independently as well of course.

 

[yorksrob]

Platform 2 is the longest at 359m, all others are c.240 only. Any international operator is going to need 400m trains to make the numbers add up. And that's before you get into the security conflicts with access to P1 while P2 is being used for European trains.

I wonder if they could have a 'move down the train" situation for the front carriage. The White Rose Eurostar sets used to do this.

It would be a shame to stop at Ashford and not go all the way.

 

[zwk500]

I wonder if they could have a 'move down the train" situation for the front carriage. The White Rose Eurostar sets used to do this.

It would be a shame to stop at Ashford and not go all the way.

No, it would be beyond the signal and require hard resets to release the routes. The modifications required to allow such a move would almost.certainly be uneconomic, in addition to being operationally nearly.impossible to accommodate.
Stopping at Ebbsfleet remains the most.logical option.

 

[yorksrob]

No, it would be beyond the signal and require hard resets to release the routes. The modifications required to allow such a move would almost.certainly be uneconomic, in addition to being operationally nearly.impossible to accommodate.
Stopping at Ebbsfleet remains the most.logical option.

Euch, Ebbsfleet. Perhaps if they stopped at Ashford as well it could feed into domestic services to London.

 

[paul1609]

Perhaps they could run into Waterloo ? They presumably wouldn't need all of the former Eurostar platforms.

You'd need to build new trains to fit or reconvert some of the 11 class 373s remaining in service.

 

[yorksrob]

You'd need to build new trains to fit or reconvert some of the 11 class 373s remaining in service.

I suppose the 373's would be easiest to convert back.

Though presumably a new operator would prefer new, purpose built stock anyway ?

 

[zwk500]

I suppose the 373's would be easiest to convert back.

Though presumably a new operator would prefer new, purpose built stock anyway ?

A new operator will need stock that is ETCS ready. Any 373s not required by E* has gone to the torch, AIUI.

 

[cphilb]

RENFE have reportedly been interested since 2009, when they talked about Spain to London. They also made announcements in 2021 about their intention to operate future services. I think we will have to wait quite a while before RENFE get in on the action.

RENFE plan to launch Barcelona - Paris in 2024 - so it wouldn't be that much of a stretch to go to London - though a solution would have to be found for which Paris terminal to use - unless they skipped Paris and went straight to Lille

 

[zwk500]

Euch, Ebbsfleet. Perhaps if they stopped at Ashford as well it could feed into domestic services to London.

Like it or not, an M25 Parkway remains the better option than an East Kent interchange, even if you can only use 1 platform at Ebbsfleet.

 

[yorksrob]

A new operator will need stock that is ETCS ready. Any 373s not required by E* has gone to the torch, AIUI.

Yes, I suspected as much. New build would obviously be done to the necessary requirements.

Like it or not, an M25 Parkway remains the better option than an East Kent interchange, even if you can only use 1 platform at Ebbsfleet.

Why not both ? Ashford has truly excellent rail connections to London. For those of us who don't drive, the m25 is meaningless.

 

[Snow1964]

See other threads (or even earlier in this one) for why Stratford is the worst of the 3 options of negotiating access to St Pancras, Ebbsfleet or Ashford.

I thought currently St Pancras border can't cope with extra passengers (but does have 6 International platforms so can cope with extra trains)

Meanwhile the border control is effectively closed at both Ebbsfleet and Ashford, and never actually opened at Stratford. So whichever one you open going to have to provide border force.

I might be missing something obvious, but if St Pancras doesn't have the capacity, then need some of the passengers to alight at one of the other 3 stations to spread the load if going to run extra services.

I do not know how many booths / kiosks or electronic e-gates are (or there is provision for) at each of the 4 stations, but struggling to see why Stratford is nowadays the worst of the destinations. I agree it was few years ago.

If coming by car got M11 and it's A12 connection (replacing the not built junction 1-4) to Stratford, and motorway actually gets nearer than it does at Ebbsfleet where need to also continue on A road (A2). If coming by public transport then Stratford beats other two by miles.

Can you please explain why Stratford spreading the load to the at capacity St Pancras is such a bad idea.

 

[paul1609]

I thought currently St Pancras border can't cope with extra passengers (but does have 6 International platforms so can cope with extra trains)

Meanwhile the border control is effectively closed at both Ebbsfleet and Ashford, and never actually opened at Stratford. So whichever one you open going to have to provide border force.

I might be missing something obvious, but if St Pancras doesn't have the capacity, then need some of the passengers to alight at one of the other 3 stations to spread the load if going to run extra services.

I do not know how many booths / kiosks or electronic e-gates are (or there is provision for) at each of the 4 stations, but struggling to see why Stratford is nowadays the worst of the destinations. I agree it was few years ago.

If coming by car got M11 and it's A12 connection (replacing the not built junction 1-4) to Stratford, and motorway actually gets nearer than it does at Ebbsfleet where need to also continue on A road (A2). If coming by public transport then Stratford beats other two by miles.

Can you please explain why Stratford spreading the load to the at capacity St Pancras is such a bad idea.

Not sure if you're aware but the A2 on this section is a 70 mph 4 lane plus hard shoulder dual carriageway road down to the Ebbsfleet Junction which is a dual carriageway in to the station. Its a better than most motorways road and much better that the access to Stratford.

 

[Eastwestjct]

SWR need all of them though.

Problem with Waterloo or any London destination it needs to be able to handle a very long train. Trains via tunnel only seem to stack up financially if they are long? Waterloo would be max @250m now. Any change in infrastructure would add cost and as not currently part of a scheme would take semi time

 

[Whistler40145]

What stock would be used?

 

[yorksrob]

Problem with Waterloo or any London destination it needs to be able to handle a very long train. Trains via tunnel only seem to stack up financially if they are long? Waterloo would be max @250m now. Any change in infrastructure would add cost and as not currently part of a scheme would take semi time

Yet Waterloo managed as the original terminal. I'm not sure train lengths have increased since then.

 

[StephenHunter]

What stock would be used?

Probably a Siemens Velaro of some form; RENFE have those.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Yet Waterloo managed as the original terminal. I'm not sure train lengths have increased since then.

They haven't, but the platforms were shortened.

 

[zwk500]

What stock would be used?

Probably a Siemens Velaro of some form; RENFE have those.

If they're talking to Alston, it won't be a Velaro. Presumably a modified version of the new TGV.

Yet Waterloo managed as the original terminal. I'm not sure train lengths have increased since then.

Waterloo was rebuilt to hand it back to domestic passengers. See this London Reconnections Article: https://www.londonreconnections.com/2017/back-future-relengthening-shortening-waterloo/

The long and short of it is that to handle the uplift from 6tph (that Eurostar required) to 18tph (that SWR required), the platforms needed to be cut back from c.400m to c.250m to allow the pointwork to be installed. This also had the advantage of removing the more curved and narrow section of the platforms.

 

[yorksrob]

They haven't, but the platforms were shortened.

If they're talking to Alston, it won't be a Velaro. Presumably a modified version of the new TGV.

Waterloo was rebuilt to hand it back to domestic passengers. See this London Reconnections Article: https://www.londonreconnections.com/2017/back-future-relengthening-shortening-waterloo/

The long and short of it is that to handle the uplift from 6tph (that Eurostar required) to 18tph (that SWR required), the platforms needed to be cut back from c.400m to c.250m to allow the pointwork to be installed. This also had the advantage of removing the more curved and narrow section of the platforms.

That's that scuppered then.

 

[zwk500]

That's that scuppered then.

Tbh the far bigger problem would have been finding international paths through Herne Hill.

 

[paul1609]

A new operator will need stock that is ETCS ready. Any 373s not required by E* has gone to the torch, AIUI.

I wouldn't pretend to be an expert but as I understood it the 373s that were refurbished but no longer in use are in store somewhere in case there is an upturn in the business?

 

[zwk500]

I wouldn't pretend to be an expert but as I understood it the 373s that were refurbished but no longer in use are in store somewhere in case there is an upturn in the business?

Wouldn't being stored for potential future use count as 'required by Eurostar'? The important part being that nobody has 373s available for sale.

 

[LLivery]

I don't really understand the idea Stratford is a bad location. I'd put money on it being busier than both Ashford and Ebbsfleet and I'd consider double or nothing for having more Int'l passengers than both combined. It's certainly not a 'suburban shopping centre' - it's not Romford or Bromley - TfL even expanded the 'Central London tube map' to include it and Stratford was the busiest station in London, therefore the UK right after Covid.

People on the Eastern side of London and Essex periphery are already used to travelling to Stratford for Westfield and Olympic Stadium events, while Canary Wharf is a 10 minute tube away. Stratford basically has all the lines King's Cross St Pancras doesn't and the DLR from Regional to International is no worse than Gatwick South to North terminal on the people mover. In fact, it's easier from the Jubilee line as the DLR platform is right next to it.

Ebbsfleet makes sense for Thameside Kent/Essex drivers, Ashford makes sense for deep Kent and East Sussex. They all have their merits - if we were still in the EU, then I'd call for a part EU funded stopping service from London to Lille.

 

[zwk500]

I don't really understand the idea Stratford is a bad location. I'd put money on it being busier than both Ashford and Ebbsfleet and I'd consider double or nothing for having more Int'l passengers than both combined. It's certainly not a 'suburban shopping centre' - it's not Romford or Bromley - TfL even expanded the 'Central London tube map' to include it and Stratford was the busiest station in London, therefore the UK right after Covid.

The international facilities were never fitted out, so it'll cost more to open. And it's track layout means any terminating train must either work a significant length of wrong road running or continue on to St Pancras anyway. The costs are huge for missing out on the central London Market, which Euston Road still serves far better than Stratford.

 

[LLivery]

The international facilities were never fitted out, so it'll cost more to open. And it's track layout means any terminating train must either work a significant length of wrong road running or continue on to St Pancras anyway. The costs are huge for missing out on the central London Market, which Euston Road still serves far better than Stratford.

Oh I understand both points; there's a document I came across recently looking at the work possible to fit Stratford out. I'm not saying trains should be turning around there, either. But it wouldn't be empty if it was open for International departures.

 

[185]

Eurostar's ruinously expensive fares of ... £40-£90.

Quota'd. Not many tickets at those headline prices. We were quoted £205 STD Sgl for about 11 trains not so long ago with trains only 66% to 80% full, ended up heading to Beauvais and flew for £50.