Ex-EMR Class 180 at Widnes

[occone]

It feels like given the inability to make them reliable, it's time for them to be retired early. Unless they could be made reliable with some massive overhaul somehow.

 

[Anonymous10]

It feels like given the inability to make them reliable, it's time for them to be retired early. Unless they could be made reliable with some massive overhaul somehow.

Reduction in speed to 100mph, perhaps would make them more reliable, then lease to gwr to work with the 175s? (This is more speculation and wishful thinking)

 

[simonmpoulton]

It feels like given the inability to make them reliable, it's time for them to be retired early. Unless they could be made reliable with some massive overhaul somehow.

I'm sure if they had been given to Alstom at Chester then they would've been made reliable just as the 175's were before CAF took over.
I remember when Northern had a few of them they managed to get them working reliably and had some choice words to say about the condition that FGW had left them in!

It's all a matter of the right maintenance.

 

[Triumph 865]

I have noticed a 180 outside Alstom Widnes over the last three weeks can anyone confirm it's 109 please

 

[darylyates17]

Reduction in speed to 100mph, perhaps would make them more reliable, then lease to gwr to work with the 175s? (This is more speculation and wishful thinking)

Could they be converted to 175 running gear to lengthen 175s?

 

[Geeves]

Reduction in speed to 100mph, perhaps would make them more reliable, then lease to gwr to work with the 175s? (This is more speculation and wishful thinking)

At Northern the majority of the work was a lot less than 100mph and unfortunately they were still prone to the same issues, engines shutting down and unable to restart and electrical/computer issues were a daily occurrence and yes Northern had them totally in bits at Newton Heath.

 

[Helvellyn]

Back to EMR to allow the 7-car 222s to go to First Stirling for Lumo WCML?

 

[MCR247]

Back to EMR to allow the 7-car 222s to go to First Stirling for Lumo WCML?

I’m not sure the DfT would sign off on these extra costs to free up stock for an open access operation

 

[357]

I’m not sure the DfT would sign off on these extra costs to free up stock for an open access operation

If the lease of the 222s is coming to an end and they are committed to go elsewhere - there's nothing the government can do about it.

It's a privatised industry that the government don't totally control, and if EMR need them, they will need to lease them back from Lumo.

 

[Spaceship323]

I have noticed a 180 outside Alstom Widnes over the last three weeks can anyone confirm it's 109 please

Trainlogger has 109 at Widnes on 12th April https://trainlogger.co.uk/sightings/at/31908?year=2025

 

[MCR247]

If the lease of the 222s is coming to an end and they are committed to go elsewhere - there's nothing the government can do about it.

It's a privatised industry that the government don't totally control, and if EMR need them, they will need to lease them back from Lumo.

I don’t disagree with any of this but this isn’t what the poster I’d quoted was saying.

If they’d said maybe the 180s could fill a gap at EMR if 222s go to lumo because their lease has ended, I wouldn’t have replied. But the post was suggesting (or seemed to be suggesting to me) that EMR choose to take back 180s to ensure the 222s are released on time for lumo - something I don’t believe the DfT would sign of on.

 

[357]

I don’t disagree with any of this but this isn’t what the poster I’d quoted was saying.

If they’d said maybe the 180s could fill a gap at EMR if 222s go to lumo because their lease has ended, I wouldn’t have replied. But the post was suggesting (or seemed to be suggesting to me) that EMR choose to take back 180s to ensure the 222s are released on time for lumo - something I don’t believe the DfT would sign of on.

Ah yes you're right.

It would depend however on if Lumo are willing to take on the units later than agreed. If Lumo says no - there's not much EMR can do.

 

[John R]

Ah yes you're right.

It would depend however on if Lumo are willing to take on the units later than agreed. If Lumo says no - there's not much EMR can do.

Has Lumo actually signed a deal with the lessor yet?

 

[357]

Has Lumo actually signed a deal with the lessor yet?

I've no idea - I'm just explaining that EMR giving up the 222s and taking on temporary stock wouldn't be "the government helping open access"

 

[John R]

I've no idea - I'm just explaining that EMR giving up the 222s and taking on temporary stock wouldn't be "the government helping open access"

The point is, if they haven’t signed a contract that commits the lessor to providing them by a given date then the scenario of “ if Lumo says no” just doesn’t exist. Lumo can say what it wants, but if the lessor agrees to extend the lease and make Lumo wait then so be it, as Lumo hardly has an abundance of other options it can use in the short term.

 

[357]

The point is, if they haven’t signed a contract that commits the lessor to providing them by a given date then the scenario of “ if Lumo says no” just doesn’t exist. Lumo can say what it wants, but if the lessor agrees to extend the lease and make Lumo wait then so be it, as Lumo hardly has an abundance of other options it can use in the short term.

So we are both in agreement - the rolling stock is subject to contracts and the government doesn't have the final decision where trains with no lease are going, and are not going to "help open access".

 

[Triumph 865]

Trainlogger has 109 at Widnes on 12th April https://trainlogger.co.uk/sightings/at/31908?year=2025

Many thanks